180s on the street – does it make sense?

quote:

Originally posted by Push1267:
I’ve started looking for an exhaust system for my pantera. It’s going to run a moderately tuned 427 winsor stroker (525 HP).

I’m a big fan of the 180s - love the look and sound and of course they supposedly cures the problems with HP-rubbing small diameter collectors and mufflers.

But does it really make sense on a car that I intend the drive regularly (as long as I use a heatshield) and will I see any performance benefits on a long stroke/ std bore winsor stroker over fx the typical 2.5 inch std style header/muffler system??

Also, I’ve read many of the treads on the subject here on the forum, but miss some comments on how they are to live with when the car is driven often or on longer trips.

Kristian

Kristian,

I'm working on a set for my car. I have a set on my GT40. I like them and other than possibly more engine compartment heat, I see no reason why they would be any more or less streetable than a conventional set up. I would strongly recommend ceramic coatings and I will also use stainless to further reduce the additional heat load in the engine compartment, and yes, shields to protect the paint on the decklid are highly recommended if not essential.

The stock Pantera mufflers (even GTS) are power robbers. Presuming those are what you presently have, at your power level, probably >25HP but <50HP could be expected. Many members have realized significant improvements simply by replacing their Ansa styls cans with Flowmasters or other performance mufflers. I doubt that 180s will produce substantial gains over upgraded mufflers in a conventional configuration.

The the optimal primary length is typically much shorter than what is physically possible with 180s. On the other hand, you do have a lot more space and length for a well designed merge collector and expansion cone as well space to package large free flowing mufflers that suit your desired sound levels, so in this sense, uprgaded performance over Pantera stockers is certainly to be expected. V-band clamps to attach the mufflers are common so swaps can be easily made.

It will be an experiment for me as I struggle looking at the back end of a Pantera without the Ansa style cans. -They just belong there. I will make inserts for the rear valance vacancies so the mod is easily reversible.

If properly constructed, the sound is something to behold when you come on the cam.

Best,
Kelly

Kelly brings up a very good point, in regards to street driven vehicles. On a street motor the mufflers can dominate the engine's performance more than people realize. They can shift the powerband lower in the rev range, kill over-rev, dictate the need for a split pattern cam, limit the amount of overlap that can be tolerated and limit the horsepower output. The fact that restrictive mufflers shift the powerband to a lower rev range is why some people say exhaust back pressure improves low rpm torque and drivability.

I have no dyno numbers to back this up, but I would suspect that the performance benefit of a 180 degree exhaust system is largely negated when the system exhausts into mufflers. They still look cool however! Have you ever heard the formula 1 whine an 8 into 1 system makes?



-G

You can hear the difference between the 180's and conventional headers in this video. The yellow car that passes at 2:13 has 180's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raL5NQAgCHc

Fairly quiet until you hit 3000rpm, then it's ear piercing.
Will

Anyone have any Youtube or other audio of the 360 degree 8 into 1 system in George's post? I searched Youtube but came up with zip.

Best,
K

Here is another Youtube video of a Pantera with your typical 180’s, not the 360's mentioned by George, but still very cool. At about 2min 06sec they fire it up and drive it away. Video of Pantera with 180s

I personally love the sound and would like to install a set. I just have so many other items I need to purchase before I can do this mod.

quote:

Originally posted by Panterror:
... Anyone have any Youtube or other audio of the 360 degree 8 into 1 system in George's post ...

The picture I posted was of a BBC powered Pantera driven competitively by Bjorn Carapi

Bjorn Carapi's video

quote:

Anyone have any Youtube or other audio of the 360 degree 8 into 1 system in George's post? I searched Youtube but came up with zip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrmacfW7yrM

In the Bjorn Carapi video at about 1:10, Bjorns car hiccups and lets out a little puff of white smoke.

What happened?

Ron McCall has 180's on his. It runs like a scared rabbit.

quote:

Originally posted by larryw:
In the Bjorn Carapi video at about 1:10, Bjorns car hiccups and lets out a little puff of white smoke.

What happened?

The clutch had enough....

180s on the street work fine- perhaps better than on the track, 'cause the long tubes tend to emphasise mid-range torque at the expense of some top end power. The one big disadvantage I had with Hall 180's was, they sound SOOO good you tend to stay in the throttle just a little longer than you should, making corner entrances too fast & sloppy, and causing long, intense conversations with Officer No-no.... Another disadvantage is working around the engine once they're on. You can't do much maintenence back there- especially with a hot engine.

quote:

Originally posted by Panterror:
Anyone have any Youtube or other audio of the 360 degree 8 into 1 system in George's post? I searched Youtube but came up with zip.

Best,
K

Two small videos on this Swedish site:
http://www.detomaso.nu/~thomast/glr-2000/

With Carb...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...uqCg&feature=related

With EFI...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZq1Fh1Lbos

Thank you all for your input. I guess I didn't see anything that should scare me away from using 180s on a street driven pantera

Mark - your car is the perfect example why anyone would wan't 180s. Awesome sound and looks.
Are they the ones Bob Byars at Precision Proformance makes ?? He seems like the only off-the-shelf supplier of 180s for 9.5 deck winsors.

Kristian

> I’m a big fan of the 180s - love the look and sound and of course they supposedly
> cures the problems with HP-rubbing small diameter collectors and mufflers.

I've dyno tested A 400+ HP 351C with Hall's 180 headers with Supertrap mufflers
against a set of GTS Pantera headers, long tube Mustang headers and a set of sprint
car headers. The 180's were about as good as the Pantera and long tubes with
Magnaflow mufflers but better than the Pantera headers with GTS mufflers. The
Pantera and Mustang headers were better than the 180's with the exhaust port plates
installed. It appears the mufflers are the most important element as the difference
between GTS and Magnaflow mufflers is 50 HP.

> how they are to live with when the car is driven often or on longer trips.

The thing that keeps me from considering them is the loss of luggage space.

> Many members have realized significant improvements simply by replacing their Ansa
> style cans with Flowmasters or other performance mufflers.

Flowmasters don't perform as well as Magnaflows and are very location sensitive.

> They can shift the powerband lower in the rev range, kill over-rev,

In my testing, they didn't shift the power band lower but progressively lowered
power as RPM increased.

> The fact that restrictive mufflers shift the powerband to a lower rev range is why
> some people say exhaust back pressure improves low rpm torque and drivability.

That myth dies hard. Higher backpressure mufflers will noticeably hurt idle and
low rpm driveability, especially with higher overlap cam.

Dan Jones

quote:

Originally posted by Push1267:
Thank you all for your input. I guess I didn't see anything that should scare me away from using 180s on a street driven pantera

Mark - your car is the perfect example why anyone would wan't 180s. Awesome sound and looks.
Are they the ones Bob Byars at Precision Proformance makes ?? He seems like the only off-the-shelf supplier of 180s for 9.5 deck winsors.

Kristian

Yes I got them from Bob Byars. I am running a 392W 9.5 deck. What I like is you can take the valve covers off with no problems.

Kelly Coffield!

Here's a video featuring a Ford powered Trophy Series desert race truck with an 8 into 1 system. Listen to the whine compared to the rumble of the other truck in the video.

video: Team Enduro Racing, Dan Smith & Dave Ashley

Details:
__________________________________________________________

When Enduro Racing made the decision to develop a new truck, it became a question of starting from scratch, or utilizing existing technology. The simple solution came in the form of a "Baja Truck" chassis from Bill Savage.

Originally designed as a "spec truck" to compete with Ivan Stewart's Protruck series, the idea floundered and never got off the ground. But.....the chassis design, tubular chro-moly steel, was well suited to use as a basis for a Trophy Truck. As several had been partially assembled, but never finished, Enduro Racing seized the opportunity, put the money down, and began construction of the vehicle you see before you.

Drivetrain

When Toyota unleashed it's 4 valve Lexus / Tundra engine on the Trophy Truck world in 1997, a new sound was heard across the desert. It was apparently heard all the way back to Dearborn as well, because Ford wasted little time designing a 4 valve head for the 5.4 Triton engine based on the DOHC 4.6 Cobra.

While the off road community believed the days of the factory sponsored racer were over, the reality is the factories merely lowered their profile. Unless the politically correct climate in the US changes, we won't be seeing "Ford Rough Riders 2" any time soon, but the fact remains - there's nothing like a desert race to torture test your equipment.

Committing a reported $180,000 to the cylinder head program alone, Ford continues it's R&D work with Enduro Racing in several areas. As in the E4OD days, Ford Powertrain is testing and developing the electronically shifted 6 speed automatic in the desert, and the results of the lessons learned there will soon be finding their way into your dealers showroom.

Specs on the 4 valve 5.4 are suspiciously hard to come by, but here's what we know. The mighty mill is rumored to develop close to 700 hp, with power coming in hard over 5500 RPM. Grinned Dave Ashley "You gotta' drive it like a 125 dirt bike".

That free breathing high RPM power comes in part from the 4 valve heads, fed through a monstrous cast plenum - F1 style intake, twin SVO throttle bodies, and a grille inducted "Ram Air" system. With all the plumbing kept underhood, the F-150 retains a remarkably "stock" looking appearance. (Well, compared to other Trophy Trucks anyway)

Spent gasses are fed through a unique 8 into 1 collector and a high mounted canister style muffler. Combined with a 6 inch outlet, the 5.4 DOHC engine sounds much more like that of a Formula 1 car than of a 5000 pound desert truck.
________________________________________________________

-G

quote:

Originally posted by Cowboy from Hell:
Kelly Coffield!

Here's a video featuring a Ford powered Trophy Series desert race truck with an 8 into 1 system. Listen to the whine compared to the rumble of the other truck in the video.

video: Team Enduro Racing, Dan Smith & Dave Ashley

-G

Thanks for that George, I likey!

Best,
Kelly

Kelly,

FYI: SPD manufactures a full range of 8 into 1 merge collectors (SPD Merge Collectors).

David

So does www.woolfaircraft.com
I spoke with them this weekend at the PRI show in Orlando.
Wow, is their fabrication impressive!

Jack

Though the 360 degree 8 into 1 is definitely unique, it may be a bit too unique for me. I’m actually going to build a second set for my GT40 replica as it will also eventually have a similar engine and will be 9.5” deck with C302B port position. The 40 definitely needs to be 180s and with the recommendation from Burns Stainless for my build, it’s going to take some doing. Burns recommended two steps from an initial diameter of 1 ¾” to 1 7/8" to 2” at the collector with a 2 3/8” merge back up to 3” cone and then straight through 3” by 17” (or so) long mufflers. The optimum total primary length for my combo was 36” but I don’t think it can be done in less than 38”. When Mike Trusty did his GT40 (which has a stouter cam than what I have planned) his optimum length was only 29-30”. However he found about 38” total primary was about the minimum possible.

The BF301s and C302Bs heads I have on hand have about 1 5/8” exhaust ports. Though starting with 1 ¾” will be nice for header bolt clearance, stepping twice to 2” is going to take some careful planning through all the twists and turns. Below is a picture of Mike Trusty’s GT40 installation. He did this in one step for the primaries. –Very nicely done I might add. I’m going to have to study the matter to determine if I can make the steps occur in practical locations. It’s bound to result in a more expensive pile scrap stainless mandrel bent tubing. I understand harmonics and how the primary length relates to scavenging but even after speaking to Vince Roman at Burns, I’m not sure I fully appreciate the benefits of (multiple) steps. Vince indicated the ideal header continually increases in cross sectional area but I could not get a sense of the performance trades versus no step at all. I need to consider whether it’s even worth the trouble. -Doubtful for a street car. It definitely complicates planning and fabrication.



Best,
Kelly