A local Pantera owner buddy of mine is looking for a 1968-1971 351C short block with 4 bolt main to complete his overhaul of real nice car. Do such blocks still exist? Anyone know where to find one or how much it might cost?
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David,
the only 4 bolt Cleveland blocks produced from 1969 to 1971 were those slated for the 1971 Boss 351, this is a rare and valuable block, sought after by Mustang restorers.
The late '71 - '74 cobra jet motors had 4 bolt mains, and are a dime a dozen. the casting number is D2AE-CA. That's the way to go.
Beware, not all D2AE-CA blocks are 4 bolt. All later Cleveland blocks carried the same casting number, including the 2 bolt, 2 barrel carburetor versions. Some Cobra Jet motors were assembled with 2 bolt main blocks, and I've seen a 2 barrel motor (2V) with 4 bolt mains. But in general, the majority of Cobra Jet motors had 4 bolt mains.
Cobra Jet blocks are auctioned on ebay frequently.
cowboy from hell
the only 4 bolt Cleveland blocks produced from 1969 to 1971 were those slated for the 1971 Boss 351, this is a rare and valuable block, sought after by Mustang restorers.
The late '71 - '74 cobra jet motors had 4 bolt mains, and are a dime a dozen. the casting number is D2AE-CA. That's the way to go.
Beware, not all D2AE-CA blocks are 4 bolt. All later Cleveland blocks carried the same casting number, including the 2 bolt, 2 barrel carburetor versions. Some Cobra Jet motors were assembled with 2 bolt main blocks, and I've seen a 2 barrel motor (2V) with 4 bolt mains. But in general, the majority of Cobra Jet motors had 4 bolt mains.
Cobra Jet blocks are auctioned on ebay frequently.
cowboy from hell
Thanks for the info, George. No wonder my friend is having such trouble finding one.
He seems stuck on the 68-71 convinced the material was much better only in those years. Is he wrong?
Will a Cobra jet 4 bolt block handle hi performance heads, a strocker kit and survive in a hard driven "almost daily driver" Pantera?
He seems stuck on the 68-71 convinced the material was much better only in those years. Is he wrong?
Will a Cobra jet 4 bolt block handle hi performance heads, a strocker kit and survive in a hard driven "almost daily driver" Pantera?
there were no Cleveland engines in 1968!, they began production in summer 1969 for the 1970 model year.
No the early blocks ARE NOT made of better iron.
For better iron, your friend should purchase a block imported from Australia.
The durability of production Cleveland & Windsor bocks cannot be quoted as a hard, fast number. Its a number based on how well the engine is assembled, how much power it makes, how high of rpm it is run at, and for how long it is asked to make the power or sustain the high rpm. Road course racing is much harder on a motor than drag racing, "hard" street driving, or the occasionally blast of acceleration on an on-ramp, or out on the interstate.
For instance, drag racers, making well over 600 bhp, can run a production Cleveland block for years with no problems. Hugh Kleinpeter, a gentleman who raced Panteras on road courses, felt 450 bhp was the limit of the block.
If the car is to be raced on a track, and if the motor is producing more than 500 bhp, I have 3 alternatives for your friend:
(1) build a Clevor using a heavy duty windsor/svo block from Dart, or Ford (FRPP)
(2) locate an australian Cleveland NASCAR (XE192540) block. someone on the BB may still have one for sale. It has one thin cylinder & would need to be sleeved.
(3) patiently wait for Tod Buttermore to produce the heavy duty Cleveland block he is working on. (this is what I'm doing at the moment)
500 bhp & hard street driving, the production block should be OK, so long as the motor is meticulously assembled. Same situation you're in, eh?
cowboy from hell
No the early blocks ARE NOT made of better iron.
For better iron, your friend should purchase a block imported from Australia.
The durability of production Cleveland & Windsor bocks cannot be quoted as a hard, fast number. Its a number based on how well the engine is assembled, how much power it makes, how high of rpm it is run at, and for how long it is asked to make the power or sustain the high rpm. Road course racing is much harder on a motor than drag racing, "hard" street driving, or the occasionally blast of acceleration on an on-ramp, or out on the interstate.
For instance, drag racers, making well over 600 bhp, can run a production Cleveland block for years with no problems. Hugh Kleinpeter, a gentleman who raced Panteras on road courses, felt 450 bhp was the limit of the block.
If the car is to be raced on a track, and if the motor is producing more than 500 bhp, I have 3 alternatives for your friend:
(1) build a Clevor using a heavy duty windsor/svo block from Dart, or Ford (FRPP)
(2) locate an australian Cleveland NASCAR (XE192540) block. someone on the BB may still have one for sale. It has one thin cylinder & would need to be sleeved.
(3) patiently wait for Tod Buttermore to produce the heavy duty Cleveland block he is working on. (this is what I'm doing at the moment)
500 bhp & hard street driving, the production block should be OK, so long as the motor is meticulously assembled. Same situation you're in, eh?
cowboy from hell
How far away is the Buttermore block from production?
Will
Will
Thanks for the info, eh? Carmelo, with the yellow beast I've posted pics of recently, is redoing his engine. He blew up on the way home from Kingston. I am pretty sure it was just not put together properly. I will pass your info on to him.
My stock engine was bulletproof, an indestructible block as far as I am concerned. After years of hard driving I finally overrevved enough to bend a pushrod and then went the total rebuild with the stroker kit and hi end parts. It is still indestructible - must be all that internal lubrication considering the oil it consumes. I will have news about it soon.
My stock engine was bulletproof, an indestructible block as far as I am concerned. After years of hard driving I finally overrevved enough to bend a pushrod and then went the total rebuild with the stroker kit and hi end parts. It is still indestructible - must be all that internal lubrication considering the oil it consumes. I will have news about it soon.
quote:(3) patiently wait for Tod Buttermore to produce the heavy duty Cleveland block he is working on. (this is what I'm doing at the moment)
OK, George, spill the beans. What kinda engine you gonna build for your own personal Pantera. I want to know cause I might just want the same thing myself years from now.
quote:Originally posted by 4NHOTROD:
...How far away is the Buttermore block from production?...
I'm sorry Will, I have no way to know. Tod was compelled to adopt a policy of secrecy to protect his project. The only updates he provides now are to write "yes, I am still working on it".
cowboy from hell
quote:Originally posted by DeTom:
...spill the beans. What kinda engine you gonna build ...
A smooth idling, easy driving, large cubic inch motor with hydraulic roller cam, and alloy heads. Powerband of 2000 to 6000 rpm. Snappy throttle response & wide powerband being more important than actual bhp numbers. A docile motor that can rip the rubber off the tires. Bruce Lee in a tux.
Which heads will depend upon how I decide to proceed with the induction system. I'm kicking around 3 possiblilties: Weber IDF carbs if I locate a Cain intake, long runner single throttle body fuel injection if Trick flow gets off their ass, or a Holley on a single plane intake (A3 heads/A331 intake). The last option would be updated to fuel injection at a later date.
cowboy from hell
quote:Originally posted by george pence:quote:Originally posted by DeTom:
...spill the beans. What kinda engine you gonna build ...
A smooth idling, easy driving, large cubic inch motor with hydraulic roller cam, and alloy heads. Powerband of 2000 to 6000 rpm. Snappy throttle response & wide powerband being more important than actual bhp numbers. A docile motor that can rip the rubber off the tires. Bruce Lee in a tux.
Which heads will depend upon how I decide to proceed with the induction system. I'm kicking around 3 possiblilties: Weber IDF carbs if I locate a Cain intake, long runner single throttle body fuel injection if Trick flow gets off their ass, or a Holley on a single plane intake (A3 heads/A331 intake). The last option would be updated to fuel injection at a later date.
cowboy from hell
Sounds really cool. WOuldn't consider two little tiny four barrels on a tunnel ram like what Marlin did would ya? To me it would seem to provide a lot of the benifits of the IR system, but still have the old school carbs instead of electrical this and that. I asked Marlin how he likes his set up but he never replied.
Gee George, that sounds just like my engine. You can try it out in a few weeks. Just make sure you leave room to carry extra oil with you.
FYI - Carmen picked up a 1971 351 Boss 4 bolt complete with heads and crank for CDN$2,000. Probably one of the late versions you refer to. I'll check casting # when I see it.
FYI - Carmen picked up a 1971 351 Boss 4 bolt complete with heads and crank for CDN$2,000. Probably one of the late versions you refer to. I'll check casting # when I see it.
...DeTom; I did answer your question and posted pictures back in 'Engines and Systems' first page near bottom the thread is 'Intake Gaskets'...
quote:Originally posted by MARLIN JACK:
...DeTom; I did answer your question and posted pictures back in 'Engines and Systems' first page near bottom the thread is 'Intake Gaskets'...
OMG Marlin. I found the thread of which you speak. It is indescribably beutifull!! I almost cried seeing that set up. It is late sixties and I am a kid again watching grumpy jenkins duke it out with dyno don nicholson.
Do thevendors sell these wieland manifold thingies? Are they real expensive?
Why it certainely IT EXICIT IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO BE A PROUD OWNER OF ONE CALL RALPH AT 718 421-03097!!!