4.6 Driving and Performance Opinions

Try this thread:

http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...5562/m/941101312/p/5

Thank you very much, I hadn't read that thread yet. That does help alot. It appears thy most of the people who are dissapointed with the the mod motors performance are running stock motors and / or naturally aspirated combos. Opinions definitely seems to be all over the board. Interesting.

Hey Corey, looks like in 09 you were thinking about it as well. I haven't looked for any other posts by you on it, but what did you decide on the issue?

Funny you ask. I've been considering it for a long time. I think that a 351 Cleveland will make more power for less money than a Modular. Consistently. However, the reliability and driveability can be much better. No distributor roll pins to shear off, etc.

I've looked into actually swapping in the new 5.0 liter coyote engine from the 2011 Mustang GT. If you look back on the threads in this forum, you'll find a thread about that motor. It makes well over 400 hp and has just shy of 400 lb-ft of torque. It revs to 7000 rpm willingly, and could do that consistently. It's available from Ford Racing as a crate motor and you can get a support package that includes a computer, simplified wiring harness, MAF sensor, drive-by-wire throttle, etc. As I wrote before, the motor mounts, 8-bolt flywheel, and bellhousing pattern are the same as a 4.6. The two big issues are fitting the engine and the potential for the passenger side head to rub against the wheelhouse sheetmetal and for the 5.0, the forward-mounted throttle body. The new coyote is superior to the old 4.6 in almost every way, so that's the direction I'm considering. Just gotta work out the throttle body. If you look at the pictures of the manifold, it looks very possible to flip the manifold around so that it exits at the back of the motor. The intake appears to be symmetrical, and no coolant passages.

Now, the Cleveland will have a true aftermarket EFI manifold available soon from Trick Flow. Mass-flo has a simplified wiring harness for the old EEC-IV computer, etc. The Cleveland can now be fuel injected cheaply. It kinda takes the lure from the Modular, but the new 5.0 coyote is very tempting still. Bosswrench will argue that you don't need more than 400 to 450 hp in a Pantera as a streetable car, so that motor seems like a great way to go (if you can make it fit).

Corey,

I know a lot of guys will disagree, but for me, as long as it's Ford power I am good with what ever you decide to do. I see value in the 351 as well as the modular motors. I really like the 427 cammer with EFI -- wow; that would be fun....

Best of luck.

Mark

Mark,

Thanks for the encouragement. I've discussed the requirements for this type of swap with Steve Wilkinson already. Throttle body is the main hiccup. It's kinda ironic to think about putting a coyote heart in a cat.

Another big benefit for me: emissions. I have to get the car to pass emissions where I live. Big cams, etc. for the Cleveland won't do so well in emissions tests.

Thanks Corey and Mark for your thoughts. I read over the threads on these motors and I dont see people discussing the specific buildups in comparison. I saw the thread Mark where you stated that you had a "teksid DOHC" in your car when you bought it. The Teksid block was the 96-98 motor from the cobra, and the LOWEST performing 4.6 ever to be put in a mustang, and not just that, but stock 4.6's in any of the naturally aspirated factory trims surely dont make much power or tq. But neither does a factory 2bbl 351 cleveland with a factory cam and heads, right? I mean, a stroked, overbored 4.6 with tumbleport "C" style heads, ported, with aftermarket cams, computer mods and induction mods will make 500 horse...just like a Cleveland with its equivalent updgrades. I do agree its....well..."easier" and probably cheaper to build a 500 horse cleveland over a 500 horse modular, but I agree with Corey (that having driven a performance modular in an SVT quite a bit) that they are very capable motors and sure do driven comfortably. If i was to jump in a Pantera and drive 2000 miles to vegas or something, id rather be making 500 horse with the reliability of an SN-95 cobra mustang getting 20mpg then, well potentially what the cleveland would offer...but yes...its more complicated and more $$$.

I know its hard to compare apples to apples between a modular motor and a cleveland, because they are so different, but a person can build a 500 horse modular or a 500 horse cleveland...but both in stock trim, IMO, will be a let down for what a Pantera would have to do it justice.
??

2 words - Buttermore block. Vastly improved Cleveland block which is a direct replacement.

thanks Husker. I saw that block name on another thread, didnt research it until now. That is cool. The only blocks that i had thought about as a "what if" was the Fontana. I admit the Buttermore block seems like the way to go if a person wanted an upgrade to the cleveland foundation. Aluminum is so cool...

Has anyone built 180 degree headers for a modular? I spoke with Steve Wilkinson once not too long ago, and he said it can be done but they have to be routed "up and over" the valve covers and are hard to fit under the decklid. I guess that would make it tighter to work on the top end of the motor...and more heat close to critical components. Am I thinking about this right? Dang they sure are trick though...

Cullen,

Cannot really argue with anything that you state. Your argument is sound either way.

Yes, the 4.6L in my car seemed gutless to me. Starts everytime and very reliable, but just no push. I wanted something more; even though it looked great in the engine compartment when I purchased it. All it needed was more power, IMHO.

The 4.6L in my car also did not require any cutting of bodywork. Wilkinson did the initial installation -- and it even had the stock '74 engine cover installed so it did look stock. I have to say it looked damn good.........

Best of luck with whatever you choose to do.

Mark

Thank you Mark. Well I dont know if it shows in the undertone of my text, but i want the modular motor to be all that i want it to be....but on the other side of that coin...i want my car to make BIG power. 500 horse at least...i want it to be achievable with the technology and reliability of the mod motor, but the other side of me knows the truth - it will be easier to get there with the pushrod cleveland, or windsor. I have a 392 inch windsor my in a replica cobra...and it was inexpensive (relatively) to build to get 450 horse...no trouble at all. simple build up. So i admit im...reverse engineering here. I want to FORCE the mod motor to be more than it may be. But we'll see. Thanks for the good thoughts, and having read many threads by you on the forum, thanks for your continuing contribution to the knowledge base. Cullen

You could put a Windor in it. It sounds like you're more than capable of installing the mods (cooling, etc) to adapt it. PI sells kits for the modifications and headers are available.

A reliable 500HP Cleveland is a pretty easy goal these days, George has a sticky somewhere with recommendations on parts.

Cleveland EFI has been available for sometime albeit through small specialty manufacturers e.g. Cleveland 48IDA manifolds are readily available and so are 48 IDA pattern throttle bodies. Or there's the more conventional single TB style. Where needed adapter plates are available for intake conversions from Windsor base.

The modular motor just seems so much work to get anywhere close to Cleveland performance, that is unless you take Mark's example and go fit a Ford GT engine and transaxle that with a simple pulley swap your at +700HP.

Despite the extensive body mods, that is the way I'd spend my $$ if I was contemplating something wild, so many wrecked Ford GT's you can get a used engine and transaxle for under $25K now.

Julian