408 Stroker Life Expectancy

Art,

If the thing is assembled very cautiously, if the motor is not in too wild a state of tune, if the best parts go into its assembly, if the reciprocating assembly is dynamically balanced, if the ignition & fuel system are calibrated properly on a dyno, a motor can last a very long time.

The question you may not have thought of, how over-stressed are the parts you plan to re-use? How close are they to failing already?

cowboy from hell

Art, how are you going to drive that motor? A motor will last a lot longer at 3000 rpm than at 7000 rpm.
Richard T.

Well, ask youself why the original manufacturer never offered them even in high performance production vehicles?

Personally I think that the most important factor is the owner.

If you are going to flog it without mercy and go 8,000 miles on the best 79 cent oil money can buy I don't think there is much hope.

I don't think it would be a great idea to use a supercharger or nitrous oxide on it either. But that's just me.

I think throwing matches in a gasolene tank is a bad idea too but apparently I could be in the minority.

Also, it probably doesn't make much difference but I'd rather use a standard bore block with a stroker. I think it is the walls of the block that are the weak link here.

The current cranks, rods and pistons, even the cheapo chinese ones in most cases are better then factory racing componenets of the 60s were.

It is just a function of the era. This stuff is plentiful and cheap and very high quality.

You're on your own though as far as the "revabilaty" of a 408. I would tend to think it would feel a lot like a 390HP Ford or maybe even like a 389 Pontiac would, definately not like a SB.

> Well, ask youself why the original manufacturer never offered them even
> in high performance production vehicles?

Actually they did. Take the FE Ford engine series. Started out life
as 332 cubic inches with a 3.3" stroke. Stroke increased to 3.5",
then 3.78", and finally 3.98". Combine the stroke of the 428 with
the bore of the 427 and you could get 447 to 454 cubes. Dad's ran 454 cube version ran fine for 90,000 miles.

Dan Jones

There was never a factory Ford 454. You're thinking of the other guys.

There was never a 351 in a 8.0 block.
There was never a 377,408,415 or 427 in a 9.2 Cleveland or 9.5 Windsor block.

I'm not saying they're no good, or there shouldn't have been, I'm not stupid. I'm just saying Ford didn't want to waranty them. Reason enough.

This may open a can of worms ..but arent we talking about LOW rod ratios and HIGH rod angles which cause wear and stress on the side of cylinder walls .. in our case it seems to accur where you take a 4.0 bore and increase the stroke and rod length and the ring pack becomes more compact and even at time intersects into the oil rings ( which some believe has no impact on oil useage ..LOL ) the psiton is shorter ( some believe the shorter the piston the shorter the skirt .. creates a mass amount of stress on the walls and at some piont in a MAX STROKER that piston wants to go thru the side of the wall rather then up .. DEPENDABILITY IS DEFINATELY COMPROMISED AND YOU REACH A LIMIT ON HOW FAR YOU CAN STROKE A MOTOR BEFORE SOME COMONENT IS SACRIFICED.

a 1.5 is the lowest rod ratio and a 408 is a 1.53.

Ron

Isn't accurr= occur like short for occurance? LOL Sorry I just felt like being a smarta##
Jeff

You mean occurrence?

George,
I'm thinking about going with a Scat rotating assembly for the 408 stroker. If I go that route, the things I can think of that I would like to re-use would be the hydraulic roller cam and lifters, the block, the distributor drive gear that looks good, and the timing chain/gear. These parts only have 13,000 miles on them. I suppose I should replace the oil pump since metal made its way to the pan?

Thanks,
Art

quote:

Originally posted by Cowboy from Hell:
Art,

If the thing is assembled very cautiously, if the motor is not in too wild a state of tune, if the best parts go into its assembly, if the reciprocating assembly is dynamically balanced, if the ignition & fuel system are calibrated properly on a dyno, a motor can last a very long time.

The question you may not have thought of, how over-stressed are the parts you plan to re-use? How close are they to failing already?

cowboy from hell

Richard,
I see no need to exceed 6000-6200 rpm. 6000 rpm should be about 180 mph in my car, that should probably be fast enough.

Thanks,
Art

quote:

Originally posted by RichardT:
Art, how are you going to drive that motor? A motor will last a lot longer at 3000 rpm than at 7000 rpm.
Richard T.

Art, this may not help, but if you want big inches AND reliability, Ford Raceing makes a crate engine of 602 cubic inches and it has a one year warrenty. It is a little bit on the large and heavy side however.

try the PI 427

http://www.pim.net/crate.html

> There was never a factory Ford 454. You're thinking of the other guys.

Read what I said "Combine the stroke of the 428 with the bore of the 427
and you could get 447 to 454 cubes. Dad's 454 cube version ran fine for
90,000 miles." Ford built FE's from 332 to 428 cubic inches but it
is common to combine the 428 crank with the 427 bock and get 454 cubic
inches (447 is standard bore, 454 is 0.030"). Dad ran his in a '69
Fairlane Cobra.

> There was never a 351 in a 8.0 block.

Who said there was?

> There was never a 377,408,415 or 427 in a 9.2 Cleveland or 9.5
> Windsor block.

Ford did build 2 different strokes in 9.2" deck: 3" and 3.5".
From that perspective, the 351 is a stroker to begin with.
In any event, strokes from 3" to 4" inches are just points on
a continuum.

Dan Jones

The warranty sure would be nice! But due to the weight and physical size, I don't want to go the big block route. I'm also not crazy about the angle of the dangle when it comes to the half shafts. At a high rate of speed, I'd be praying those things wouldn't let go!

Thanks for the suggestion,

Art

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:
Art, this may not help, but if you want big inches AND reliability, Ford Raceing makes a crate engine of 602 cubic inches and it has a one year warrenty. It is a little bit on the large and heavy side however.

Brad,
I really want to stay Cleveland based this time around. Maybe after the next time, "she gets all blowed up", I'll reconsider? I believe that the Windsor sits a little taller and I don't want to be changing a bunch of stuff, though the extra cubes would be nice.

Thanks Man,
Art

quote:

Originally posted by ShotgunGrooms:
try the PI 427

http://www.pim.net/crate.html

Dan,
Was there more meat left in your Dad's block than there would be in the 408 stroker? I think someone suggested that with the 408 stroker, the long stroke and the thin cylinder walls combined with a short piston would promote additional wear at the base of the cylinder. Would a thicker cylinder wall affect the wear at the base of the cylinder? If in fact the 408 does wear the base of the cylinder more than say the 377, what are the symptoms? I'm guessing more oil consumption and perhaps a loss of compression? Even with these symptoms, does that mean the engine would actually break sooner than the 377, or is it just going to get tired sooner?

Thank you Dan,
Art

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel_Jones:
> There was never a factory Ford 454. You're thinking of the other guys.

Read what I said "Combine the stroke of the 428 with the bore of the 427
and you could get 447 to 454 cubes. Dad's 454 cube version ran fine for
90,000 miles." Ford built FE's from 332 to 428 cubic inches but it
is common to combine the 428 crank with the 427 bock and get 454 cubic
inches (447 is standard bore, 454 is 0.030"). Dad ran his in a '69
Fairlane Cobra.

> There was never a 351 in a 8.0 block.

Who said there was?

> There was never a 377,408,415 or 427 in a 9.2 Cleveland or 9.5
> Windsor block.

Ford did build 2 different strokes in 9.2" deck: 3" and 3.5".
From that perspective, the 351 is a stroker to begin with.
In any event, strokes from 3" to 4" inches are just points on
a continuum.

Dan Jones

No, no, read what I said. You wanna argue go else where.

DOH!! Wait a minute Art, I just remembered. Gary in INdiana built up a 434 cubic inch stroker motor by starting with the 400M block. If I remember right he got some big numbers on a mild build. It would probably last 100K miles because it is all under-stressed. It uses regular Cleveland everything!! Ask him about it. He seemed to be real happy with it.
DeTom

DeTom,
I'll have to look into that. It just seems that I remember hearing that the 400M wasn't much of a performance engine, and that there were not a lot of peformance parts for it, or something like that? If it has the 9.5 deck height, that would probably be a problem for me? Though I am considering running this engine with no air cleaner if I have to, in order to keep an air cleaner from blocking my view out the rear view mirror.

Thanks for the new idea,
Art

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:
DOH!! Wait a minute Art, I just remembered. Gary in INdiana built up a 434 cubic inch stroker motor by starting with the 400M block. If I remember right he got some big numbers on a mild build. It would probably last 100K miles because it is all under-stressed. It uses regular Cleveland everything!! Ask him about it. He seemed to be real happy with it.
DeTom

> I'll have to look into that. It just seems that I remember hearing that the
> 400M wasn't much of a performance engine, and that there were not a lot of
> peformance parts for it, or something like that? If it has the 9.5 deck
> height, that would probably be a problem for me?

It has a 10.297" deck height, about the same as a 460 but has the bore
spacing of a Cleveland. It's essentially a tall deck Cleveland. Comes
with long rods and a 4" stroke and can accept 4.25" strokes.

> Though I am considering running this engine with no air cleaner if I have
> to, in order to keep an air cleaner from blocking my view out the rear
> view mirror.

You're going to run no air cleaner and you're worried about a little
faster cylinder wear from stroking?

Dan Jones

Dan, he could run an IR cross ram kind of manifold. He would have to fabricate it from tubing though. THat way he could have real long runners to magnify the torque output of the engine, but not have the height associated with long IR injection tubes. Remember the old Dodge 390s with the cross-ram manifolds??? They produced more torque than horsepower.

Thank you Dan,
Of course I would like to have it all, but since I can't, I'm just trying to find a compromise I can live with.

Art

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel_Jones:
> I'll have to look into that. It just seems that I remember hearing that the
> 400M wasn't much of a performance engine, and that there were not a lot of
> peformance parts for it, or something like that? If it has the 9.5 deck
> height, that would probably be a problem for me?

It has a 10.297" deck height, about the same as a 460 but has the bore
spacing of a Cleveland. It's essentially a tall deck Cleveland. Comes
with long rods and a 4" stroke and can accept 4.25" strokes.

> Though I am considering running this engine with no air cleaner if I have
> to, in order to keep an air cleaner from blocking my view out the rear
> view mirror.

You're going to run no air cleaner and you're worried about a little
faster cylinder wear from stroking?

Dan Jones

> Dan, he could run an IR cross ram kind of manifold. He would have to
> fabricate it from tubing though. That way he could have real long
> runners to magnify the torque output of the engine, but not have the
> height associated with long IR injection tubes. Remember the old Dodge
> 390s with the cross-ram manifolds??? They produced more torque than
> horsepower.

Why would he want to increase torque at the expense of horsepower?
I thought he was looking for RPM? My 407 (4.1" bore by 3.85" stroke)
liked the short stacks (minor trade-off in torque for meaningful increase
in horsepower).

Dan Jones

make a motor that will survive

> use good parts
> machine the block accurately (index the block)
> dynamically balance the reciprocating assembly
> assemble the parts to Ford or manufacturer clearance or tolerance specifications
> have the ignition & fuel system tuned professionally on a chassis dyno

If the motor has "issues" like your previous motor did, it will fail just like your previous motor.

A motor that is "blue printed" as I have decsribed is capable of sustaining far more abuse than a motor built less precisely. I can't over-emphasize the importance of the block's machine work, the reciprocating assembly's balance and the state of tune in making the motor durable.

An extreme example of the destructiveness of a poorly tuned motor is that DeTom's motor spit the crank out the bottom because his son had crossed a pair of plug wires.

To improve the Clevo's lubrication system you'll need to bush all sixteen lifter bores and set the clearance between lifter and bores at 0.0007" (that's not a misprint). The tight clearance prevents the loss of oil between the lifters and their bores, and forces the oil to flow where it is needed, to the main journals. Install the high pressure oil pump spring (to keep the oil pump's relief valve closed), a good oil pan, and the Fram HP1 oil filter to avoid bursting the oil filter with the higher pressures. Then run external oil drainback hoses between the valve covers and oil pan.

Purchase your crank kit from Mark McKeown, he's playing some tricks with the wrist pin placement in his pistons, one of the tricks that makes his motors durable, and a good reason to just bite the bullet and purchase his crate motor (he bushes the lifter bores as I described as normal practice).

> rock and roll

....and dont use USED PARTS.

Ron

Not sure how long a 408 will live, but I can tell you that the 377 is the quietest engine I have had in the pantera. No piston noise at all as compared to the 351. I must say that a quieter engine implies less stress on the pistons and less stress on the cylinders. It is also quiet at high rpm. And it actually sounds like it likes to rev just like new modern engines. The 351 sounded like it was ready to explode at 5000 rpm.

quote:

I thought he was looking for RPM?

No that was me that wanted a high reving 351. He wants a durable engine, so he would limit his rpm to 5500 or so. I figure he could change his rear axle ratio to 3.26 to one and still run high speeds, as long as he was making 700 foot pounds of torque.
Can the 400M block go to a 5" stroke?? That would be 490 cubes. Nothing to sneeze at. Could probably pull stumps outta the ground with that one.

quote:

An extreme example of the destructiveness of a poorly tuned motor is that DeTom's motor spit the crank out the bottom because his son had crossed a pair of plug wires.

Well only part of it went out the bottom, most of the crank went out the side of the oil pan and made a huge hole. STill more of the crank went up and busted the camshaft into several pieces. One piston kinda froze up into the wall and a couple of the rods looked like pretzles. I still have a few of the more interesting shapeed pieces in a box. If you want, I could take pictures of it and post it here. My drag race buddy said that was the worst blowed up engine he had seen in twenty years of raceing, and I wasn't even trying to blow it up or nothing. Imagine if I had set out to do it.

Art, what exactly happened to your 377 and how many miles did you have on it?

Danno

Thats exactly whats being assembled for me a 377. 351W 9.2 SVO block, SCAT 3.75 Super light crank, 6.125 Steel H beams, C302B heads and IR EFI.

I think very conservative combination cant imagine where a problem could lie with that ??

Ron

Danno,
My engine had about 13,000 miles on it. Here is what I think happened. My engine was experiencing detonation due to a compression ratio that was too high for my needs. The CR was 10 to 1 with closed chamber iron heads that had subsequently been milled another .020. The detonation produced excess heat in the head which caused an exhaust valve to stick. When the valve stuck, I thought the noise I heard was due to a loose spark plug. Unable to find someone with a spark plug socket out in the desert, I tried to limp to the first place I could find one. I never made it that far. After 30-40 miles of limping toward Vegas, the head of the valve broke off destroying my piston. Like I say, this is how I think it went down. The new engine will probably have a higher CR, but with aluminum heads, which should make it more detonation resistant. I'm thinking around 10.5 to 1. Wish me luck! And many thanks to all of you that have responded.

Art

quote:

Originally posted by Danno:
Art, what exactly happened to your 377 and how many miles did you have on it?

Danno

Art, thanks for the detailed description. I suppose the desert heat didn't help things.I could be wrong but I believe with the 408 the piston wrist pin finds itself located furthur up in the piston ring cluster.You might also find a little more piston slap in the bottom of the stroke.

Whatever you choose to build I wish you all the best,

Danno

quote:

Originally posted by Danno:
...You might also find a little more piston slap in the bottom of the stroke...

there's not much left for the piston to "slap" against at BDC with a 4.00" stroke, the piston pulled quite a ways out of the bore.

cowboy from hell