4499 gets new engine

going in

Done for the day, its beer thirty

Quickitty,
Looks like fun, are you doing it yourself?

Mark

Oooh, I hope to be doing that real soon! Just got to machine a crankshaft spacer to correctly locate the timing gear on my forged stroker crank - they're made with a Windsor snout and requires a $22 spacer (M-19009-A341) from Ford Racing which has been discontinued and is no longer available anywhere in the country. Of course, Scat will sell me a set of custom timing gears for my Cleveland for $249. Anyway, my brother made a CAD drawing of the required spacer for me and I'll provide it to anyone who wants it once I machine the spacer and verify it locates things properly.

Garth, I would be interested in that CAD drawing for the SVO snout spacer once you are done. I'll put it in my archives so that I can make one when I go to rebuild a new motor. I'll pm you my email.

Mark
Yea, it can be difficult doing this kind of work by myself, but mostly I got it figured out.
The installation actually is (IMO) easier than a front engine car. Lining it up and dropping it in is cake, it's all the misc stuff that goes along with it like getting the rad hoses in place as the engine goes in that can be tough.

quote:

Just got to machine a crankshaft spacer to correctly locate the timing gear on my forged stroker crank - they're made with a Windsor snout and requires a $22 spacer (M-19009-A341) from Ford Racing which has been discontinued and is no longer available anywhere in the country. Of course, Scat will sell me a set of custom timing gears for my Cleveland for $249. Anyway, my brother made a CAD drawing of the required spacer for me and I'll provide it to anyone who wants it once I machine the spacer and verify it locates things properly.

First pic of the new spacer. I'll install it tonight and verify alignment/measurements. If everything looks good, I'll post the CAD drawing for others to use too.

I also found that Rollmaster makes a timing set specifically for the Cleveland SVO cranks which doesn't require the spacer, but it costs almost 3x what the standard Motorsport timing set costs. Part number is Rollmaster CS3130.

Some more information...

ALL of the off-the-shelf 351C the FORGED stroker cranks (Scat, Eagle, etc) require EITHER of the following:
1. Crankshaft spacer ring (CAD drawing to be provided once I verify fitment tonight)
2. Rollmaster timing set CS3130 - about $130, but no spacer ring is needed with this timing set

The Scat 9000 series 351C stroker crank is a correct Cleveland crank but it's CAST, not forged.

Ford Motorsport provided the spec to Scat to manufacture the forged 351C cranks with the Windsor snout to be compatible with the SVO blocks, which do not require the spacer.

Scat supplies Ford with the cranks used in Ford Motorsport's stroker crate engines.

The Scat forged crank (and possibly others) does not use a std Ford woodruff key in the crank snout. The key slots are sized for small block Chevy Woodruff keys. I will verify measurements and fitment this weekend.

quote:

ALL of the off-the-shelf 351C the FORGED stroker cranks (Scat, Eagle, etc) require EITHER of the following:
1. Crankshaft spacer ring (CAD drawing to be provided once I verify fitment tonight)
2. Rollmaster timing set CS3130 - about $130, but no spacer ring is needed with this timing set

Just got off the phone with a tech on the Ford Motorsport Tech Line who recommended against using the crank snout spacer and a Cleveland gear on the scat crank because the Windsor sized snout is about .004" smaller in diameter than the Cleveland crank snout which means that if using a standard Cleveland timing set the crank gear will be a loose fit and result in destructive harmonics.

If you haven't purchased your stroker kit yet, he recommended using the Scat 9000 series cast crank, which is a true Cleveland crank. He also stated it's a durable crank easily good for well over 600 horsepower.

If using a forged crank with the Windsor snout, he mentioned that TMeyer Inc also sells a timing set specific for this application: http://www.tmeyerinc.com/

Quickitty,
Looks good! I like to see a person doing the work themselfs. Looks like you painted the engine compartment?
I have a built engine going in mine, lost momentum but hope to be picking it back up soon. http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...=576105521#576105521

Speed-o-Motive sells the crank spacer as well

quote:

Speed-o-Motive sells the crank spacer as well

According to the Ford Motorsport tech I spoke with, Ford stopped producing the crank spacer because the Cleveland cranks with the Windsor snout will NOT work properly with the Cleveland timing gear, even with the spacer, because the crank snout is smaller than the Cleveland which results in the timing gear being loose on the crank.

My engine builder had to machine his own spacer, I think he said he used the old timing gear as stock?!?!? As long as it works

quote:

My engine builder had to machine his own spacer, I think he said he used the old timing gear as stock?!?!? As long as it works

Yeah, I machined my own spacer too, but the problem is that the Cleveland crank timing gear is too loose in the Windsor snout of my stroker crank. Lots of guys on the Cleveland forum recommend having the crank snout knurled to take up the slack.

If you're using a cast Series 9000 stroker crank from Scat, which is a correct Cleveland crank, this is a non-issue.

Its pretty well known among engine builders that some SCAT and EAGLE Windsor-stroker cranks have undersized noses as well as missing the Cleveland shoulder behind the crank timing sprocket. This not only causes the crank sprocket to be loose, it negates the tight fit that a harmonic balancer is supposed to have on the crank nose. Feel free to return any crank thats loose upon receipt; one builder told me some 80% of these Chinese strokers get returned to SCAT or Eagle for machining errors....Oh, and Lock-tite won't correct metal missing from the nose, but welding and remachining correctly will fix the problem. 'Course, then you have a cost equal to a real racing crank.

quote:

Originally posted by Bosswrench:
Its pretty well known among engine builders that some SCAT and EAGLE Windsor-stroker cranks have undersized noses as well as missing the Cleveland shoulder behind the crank timing sprocket. This not only causes the crank sprocket to be loose, it negates the tight fit that a harmonic balancer is supposed to have on the crank nose. Feel free to return any crank thats loose upon receipt; one builder told me some 80% of these Chinese strokers get returned to SCAT or Eagle for machining errors....Oh, and Lock-tite won't correct metal missing from the nose, but welding and remachining correctly will fix the problem. 'Course, then you have a cost equal to a real racing crank.

Bosswrench...

Why would SCAT and EAGLE continue to do business with the Chinese if in fact they have up to 80%? in returns? It seems to me all that would do is F**k up there good name! How long can they eat the mistakes before they are no longer around? If this info is true?, why would anyone want to buy from them and take the chance of this kind of mess up?

Just started it for the first time, its a true Fire Breathing Dragon. I almost wet myself

quote:

Its pretty well known among engine builders that some SCAT and EAGLE Windsor-stroker cranks have undersized noses as well as missing the Cleveland shoulder behind the crank timing sprocket. This not only causes the crank sprocket to be loose, it negates the tight fit that a harmonic balancer is supposed to have on the crank nose. Feel free to return any crank thats loose upon receipt; one builder told me some 80% of these Chinese strokers get returned to SCAT or Eagle for machining errors....Oh, and Lock-tite won't correct metal missing from the nose, but welding and remachining correctly will fix the problem. 'Course, then you have a cost equal to a real racing crank.

FWIW, the undersized (Windsor-sized) crank snout on the FORGED Scat cranks for the 351C are not a product of poor Chinese manufacturing. This is by design! Ford Motorsport design as a matter of fact since Scat's forged stroker cranks were developed to the specs provided by Ford Motorsport (SVO, Motorsport, Racing? Whatever their name is now) for use in SVO blocks.

It sounds like you're "one builder" might return 80% of the stroker cranks HE orders because he doesn't know what he's ordering. I don't know anything about Eagle cranks, but I do know and trust Scat cranks. I've met Tom Lieb and think him to be a very upstanding straight-shooting gearhead kind of guy who we'd all be happy to call a "friend." Tom is an old-car guy. His collection has 22 cars, which go from early brass to 30's classics, and he's won Pebble Beach Vintage Class 3 different times with one of his 7 Wills St. Claires. He started making crankshafts in 1966 and connecting rods in 1972 and, presently Scat manufactures 100 to 120 cranks a day and an average of 1000 connecting rods a day. Scat supplies the big three with cranks and rods for prototyping as well as for their crate motor programs, and has also manufactured 1000's of MG cranks exclusively for Moss Motors in Goleta, CA since 1972.

Many years ago steel mills and forging houses started to close for obvious political, union and environmental reasons. Today there are no steel mills or forging houses left in the USA that can produce the alloys or are capable of forging crankshafts in the volumes needed by Scat. Most Scat cranks are forged in China (the MG cranks are forged in England but are machined and heat treated in Redondo Beach) in the same factory where Scat forges cranks for FORD, GM and Chrysler (Scat doesn't use the cheapest Chinese foundry). The rough forgings come from China, but they're machined, balanced and heat treated in Scat's Redondo Beach facility where they maintain tight quality control over the product as it's readied for market on their 30-some CNC machines and 12 crank grinders.

Note that the Scat "9000 series" stroker crank IS a true Cleveland crank with the correct shoulder for the timing gear. It's a cast crank, but capable of handling well over 500hp.

Why did I order the forged stroker crank then??? One word: "Ignorance!" I tend to over build my engines so I wanted the strongest parts - forged crank, forged rods, forged pistons, ARP studs & bolts, etc. But, I did not know about the Windsor snout issue when I placed my order - I knew about the missing shoulder and thought the spacer was all I needed. I didn't know about the designed difference in the snout diameter. If I were to do it all over again, I would have saved some money and ordered the 9000-series stroker crank.

So, does anyone need a Ford Motorsport tru-roller timing chain set for a 351C? Brand new in the box! I'll make you a deal!

quote:

Just started it for the first time, its a true Fire Breathing Dragon. I almost wet myself

CONGRATS!!! I can't wait to do the same!

There is definitely a tendency for some to exaggerate the negative. If 80% of SCAT products were returned they would be out of business in a week. More likely 80% of engine builders don't know how to select and assemble a build from aftermarket parts, especially on a Cleveland.

I know people who have goods produced in China and they all tell me as long as you are clear on quality specs and tolerances and have a QA system in place then the Chinese can knock out quality. IMO it's the small guys that buy up stock out of a mass produced bin that are taking a chance.

Julian

Boss Wrench is right, good US cam grinders are reaping a benefit due to the poor quality machining of these cranks, In other words a lot of their business is fixing the cranks, but because the Chinese cannot finish their products "in this case cranks" correctly,Scat, Eagle, any volume cheap crank supplier, mass production shops are famous for good enough. you will end up having a under size journal to get the tolerances on a new crank. If you choose not to and just assemble the engine out of the box you might get lucky, In the trades luck has nothing to do with it! Check and double check and be sure.
So what are the problems?
Incorrect timing on the throws,
Journals are not dead flat across the width, leading to spun bearings or excessive clearances across the journal, in which case your hydraulic lift of your oil film keeping your parts from going metal to metal will be reduced, etc.
There is so much to this a novice does not know, it can be deceiving on a shiny new part.
Some folks on this site are tradesmen and humble as they don't push the issue to hard, and to other tradesman like myself it is obvious who they are.
Its wise to listen to these folks.

Mark

Is that an Offy 360 intake manifold? What are the rest of the details on the build (cam specs, compression ratio, etc.).

Thanks,
Dan Jones

Dan,
Correct on the offenhouser 360
This may sound a little Lame, but I honestly do not know all the specs. Engine building is weakest part of my Resto skills, so I rely on those who do know. I found a local reputable engine builder who knows ford engines. I printed 20 or so pages of comments and remarks from this forum on 351C from Cowboy, Boss, Marlin and yourself. When I told him that I wanted 500Hp, he kind of laughed, said thats easy. Showed me some program on a computer that he input a 393 stroker kit, I think the cam has a .5 inch of lift (no idea on the duration) I think he said the compression is 10.5 (maybe 11) to 1. (runs on high test and is a bitch to start with a stock starter)
He did do some head work (swirl port the chambers? again not sure)also set it up for Hydrolic roller rockers. He said the limiting factors is the intake manifold (he wanted a high rise, I said no) and exhaust which I will be removing some baffles. He also suggested I use a larger carb, I had a 650 Quickfuel but will probably change to a 750 holly. He said the engine with the current build will make 500Hp no problem, but I might have to make some of the above mentioned changes before I see that.
Either way, I took it around the block for the first time yesterday, very easy going but can already see a huge differance from a stock engine.