Seeking advice regarding component selection for an 8 stack E.F.I. induction

 

David, your system is just beautiful. If I understand this is a "one off" manifold? I came across another manifold from a company in Australia called EFI Hardware. It also has a built in plenum. What are everyone's thoughts on this one?

 

 

Randy,

Thanks for the comment. Indeed, the carbon x-ram is a "one off". Built for the Panoz racecar from the late 90's. They did lots of experimentation on the injector placement as this can have a significant effect on performance. The intake is, as you'd expect, amazingly light!

(And the engines are from the ex-Le Mans ADA Pantera. So a big pile of interesting history there!)

As George points out, there are simple and clean solutions to provide a common vacuum signal. Personal preference, but I think these would have a better aesthetic vs the chamber cast directly into the intake. Also lighter - if that matters. Here's the vacuum set-up I use on a Ford 341:

Here's my vacuum "chamber". It's the little black box with 4 hoses going into it. Not very noticeable! Since I have four two-barrel throttle bodies (made by IPSCO), I only have four vacuum hoses. The thing with the connector on the left side of the black box is the MAP sensor. The silver thing to the right is the drive-by-wire unit. 

What would make me nervous about a cast-in plenum is, who decided what volume it should have? There's a bit of science there. The volume can have an effect on how the MAP sensor reads. If you're just running a MAP sensor, the plenum doesn't have to be very large. If you're tapping into the plenum for an IAC and/or for a power brake booster, you need a larger plenum.    

Thanks everyone for the info...I'm trying to learn as much as I can before deciding on components. Dave, are those spacers with integral injector bungs under your throttle bodies? My car is apart (and was apart when I got it) so I don't know what the dimension is between the block china wall and decklid. It seems as though Hilborn is the only available "system" but it also appears to be one of the tallest? I'm also not sure I like the concept of the throttle bodies cast into the manifold. I am willing to cut the decklid if necessary but would be happier if I could avoid it. Is the Hall manifold still being produced or are they selling old stock and is it actually available?

Yes, those are spacers that the injectors plug into. These are not off-the-shelf items; they are custom made per application. In my case, they go between the manifold and the throttle bodies. I don't see why you can't have a similar system put together using a Hall Pantera manifold vs my Kelly Coffield manifold. Keep in mind, mine is a 9.5" tall block vs. your 9.2" 351C.

This is not the way my intake was intended to be used. Normally, the throttle bodies attach directly to the manifold, then a tall K&N filter mounts on top of the throttle bodies with velocity stacks inside the filter. My EFI guru (Dave at Autotrend EFI in Northern California) suggested the configuration change and had all the custom machining done. I kept telling him it would never fit below the deck lid and he kept telling me not to worry; it'll fit! It sure helps to have a full machine shop next door! 

As an aside, Autotred EFI had an orange '74 at the shop, just before my arrival, with a Hilborn system. The system had been installed by another shop (or the owner, can't remember). They fixed the installation problems and tuned it. 

I believe Hall Pantera has new manifolds in stock. They are listed on the web-site for $900. 

Thank you again David for all the information and help. Do you think a Hall manifold with IDA throttle bodies and some sort of filter will fit under the decklid on a 9.2" cleveland?

Yes, depending on how tall the throttle bodies are. The way it's been done many times in the past, which will surely fit, would be to install injector bungs in the manifold, then use a "bungless", low-profile TB. That will fit for sure. That's the way my system was configured initially. Here's a photo. I think the air cleaners were about 2" tall. The velocity stacks are below the air cleaners. 

Thanks David, do you happen to know the dimension from the block china wall to bottom of decklid? Is the height of your throttle bodies + spacer shorter than a throttle body with integral bungs? If I used throttle bodies with the injector bung on the inside it seems like there would be a straighter shot at the intake valve. Do you happen to still have those air cleaners?

Randy, I don't know that dimension and my engine's not in the car right now, so I can't measure. I'd swear I've seen that dimension mentioned here, at some time in the past. You should be able to find a short throttle body that will work as you mention but I'm not aware of one. I seem to recall, the place in Australia that you mentioned a couple of days ago, had some. 

Yes, I still have the air cleaners in the photo. They are new and have never been used (other than to take the photo). 

davidnunn posted:

Randy, I don't know that dimension and my engine's not in the car right now, so I can't measure. I'd swear I've seen that dimension mentioned here, at some time in the past. You should be able to find a short throttle body that will work as you mention but I'm not aware of one. I seem to recall, the place in Australia that you mentioned a couple of days ago, had some. 

Yes, I still have the air cleaners in the photo. They are new and have never been used (other than to take the photo). 

Private message sent

Fitment

Any of you that use an IAC?

If yes, Is the ECU controlled by MAP or TPS then?

Yeah i would buy the minimum required hard parts from Kinsler and source the rest of the bits myself. the Holley Terminator X knocks $1.3k off by itself. everything else can be bought for less or substituted for possibly newer products for less also

I do not use an IAC. Drive-by-wire controls my idle speed. Even if I did have an IAC, I’d still use a MAP sensor only my plenum would likely be larger, so the two sensors wouldn’t interfere with each other. Some people feel that Alpha-N (no MAP sensor) is a better strategy to use with IR intakes. Others feel a blend of speed density and alpha-n is the way to go. The Holley Dominator will let you use Speed Density, Alpha-N, VE or an unlimited blend of SD and A-N. The Dominator also uses dual O2 sensors; one per side. If you want to save a few bucks I’d look at the specs for the Terminator and Terminator Max very carefully. Make sure there’s nothing you may want to incorporate in the future (eg. drive-by-wire) that one will do and the other won’t. 

Thank's for the information!

IR EFI dyno tune session: 

615.6 HP @ 6,400 RPM (617.1 HP @ 6,300 RPM w/o mufflers)

573.4 Lb/ft @ 4,800 RPM

with alternator, A/C compressor and full exhaust system, including mufflers. 

davidnunn posted:

IR EFI dyno tune session: 

615.6 HP @ 6,400 RPM

573.4 Lb/ft @ 4,800 RPM

with alternator, A/C compressor and full exhaust system, including mufflers. 

Very impressive David, what is the compression and cam specs of your engine?

Thanks. The cam is a solid roller with 280/288 duration, .636 lift and 110 LC. The rockers are 1.70 ratio T&D shaft rockers and the lifters are the new Isky EZ-Roll. The compression ratio is 11.25:1. I’m also using a poly-composite distributor gear from TriTec Motorsports. It’s supposed to be stronger than steel but more forgiving than brass/bronze. All the NASCAR teams run them and Comp Cams swears by them. It’s still plastic to me so I’ll be keeping a close eye on it! 

I've been waiting for someone to ask or mention this system that's been up on Ebay for a year or so.

It has some interesting features such as individual throttle adjustment, various head adaptability and 51mm throttle bodies.

I know of no one who has used them and the lack of mentioning the set up here kind of confirms that.

Personally I tried to get tech information on them from the seller and their response is basically, "here it is, this is it".

I presume no one here has tried it?

 https://www.ebay.com/itm/fits-...a:g:4vwAAOSwmPFchvCB

There’s a guy on the POCA e-mail forum who bought the system. I think he lives on Maui. Haven’t heard anything since he bought it but there was a lot of pre-purchase discussion. I also know a “pro” who was hired to tune one of these systems that was installed by an owner. If I recall, he had trouble with the “made in China” throttle bodies. I’m sure there’s lots of info if you Google it. Probably not much on 351C systems specifically but the Speedmaster systems in general. Other than the throttle bodies, my concern would be the ECU. I don’t believe any self tuning ECU can be expected to work on an IR intake. It may make the engine run but that’s about it. 72panterasteve has an IR intake and one of these Fast ECU’s. He eventually wound up taking the car to Blaine Carmena to have the system tuned. 

I would have cautions about it also. It's one of those items I suspect that you can't know the issues until you have one but I don't think that is going to be unique to anything available?

I remember considering what is now the Borla IDA lookalikes. I got a PM from someone in the UK who said he was a distributor of them and to avoid them.

What he said was pretty much the same thing. You couldn't idle the engine down because the idle screws would stop responding. He thought that was because of the lack of tolerances in the throttle bodies themselves.

I don't know how accurate that is since I stayed away.

I do know that the IDA's in a sense are like that. They stop responding at a certain level. It really is not a lack of close enough tolerances in that case, it's just the limit of the design of the carb and the effect the IR manifold has on them.

Remember those were adapted to American v8's on IR manifolds. Not completely designed from inception for them?

 I've never used any of the aftermarket CPU's so I'd have to rely on good advise from previous experiences of similar applications. School of hard knocks teaches you quickly and hopefully you don't repeat the same mistakes again and again?

 I'm not necessarily defending or condemning anything made in China. No matter where it is made, you get what you pay for and certainly the Chinese are quite capable of building high quality and high precision pieces. They are also quite adapt at borrowing others technology. I suppose if you borrow something and never pay for it, that is one definition of stealing?

As I mentioned, the Borla's supposedly were having tolerance issues and they were being machined here in the US.

 I'd like to actually see the Speedmaster manifolds in person. Looking at those slots they are using for mounting to the heads raises some questions to me?

Nice engine David. How many cubes is it?

Doug,

427 cubic inch. I bought the block from Joe Fontana. It was from his last production run before he sold the business to Shelby. They (Shelby) modified the Clevor tooling to remove all the 351C parts and replace them with 351W parts. Now it's just an "Or"! 

I think Borla's cleaned-up their act and now their TB's are OK. Unfortunately, you're still on your own with them because their tech support is terrible. Also, if you need parts or an ECU they can't supply, you'll be referred to the dealer that buys the most stuff from them, not the one best suited to help you out.

Jenvey Dynamics in the UK makes great stuff but their IDA style TB's only go up to 50mm, which may not be large enough for a "built" Cleveland.  

I think that carburetion and fuel injection on an IR manifold are going to be very similar.

I do know a few things on throttle size from working with IDA's.

It was Shelby's Cobra team that spec'd the 48mm throttles. They raced them with 42mm auxiliary venturis, aka, chokes on the 289's. They were talking that they thought that set up became restrictive at about 6,700rpm.

The race 289 heads were called "GT40 heads". In race ported form, they flowed about 230cfm at about .600" lift.

Knowing those numbers, in late 1964 when the "light weight 427" was being released to Shelby and other factory sponsored race teams, 58mm IDA's were ordered. It's thought that less then 10 complete sets were made.

As I understand it, the testing was disappointing. None were put into production.

Testing on the 351c's for IDA's was originated for the Group 4 Panteras. The manifold was "designed" and manufactured in test form by Hollman-Moody. Ford was the customer. It was said that the molds were given to Detomaso.

The size that they determined to be optimal for that engine was 51mm. If you measure the diameter runners on that manifold, I believe that you will find they are all 51mm.

I can't tell you where restriction would be with 48's on a 351 because I'm busy holding on and the only safe way to determine that is on a dyno.

I would think that for "optimal" performance, i.e., WOT horsepower, your 427 likely would test highest with that number, 58mm? What the power curve would look like I suspect would be pretty disappointing. You would have to talk to someone like Blaine about the combination and what he could do with "tuning". That I wouldn't know. I'm a carb kind'a guy...although I did marry an "uptown girl".

Your engine is making nice numbers. If it was mine, I'd leave it alone. It certainly is pretty. I'd just worry about breaking the ZF.

Hey, I hear you. I'm not going to change anything. I have a special lifting bracket that lets me lift the engine back into the car without removing the TB's or the linkage, so I'm not going to! 

Re: ZF - that's one of my biggest concerns. I have an M1 ZF, which Lloyd Butfoy says is a bit stronger than a regular -2 ZF, but like -2 ZF's, it doesn't like to be shocked. No side stepping the clutch! I also have a smaller clutch assy. than most Panteras. I have a 157 tooth aluminum flywheel and 10.5" McLeod diaphragm pressure plate with an aluminum friction ring. It revs like crazy but gets off the line fine. I use a good old fashioned organic disc with full marcel and a sprung hub. Engagement is beautiful but I know I'll "cook" it if I get too crazy!     

I picked up a Hall manifold now it's time to start shopping for throttle bodies. Is there any advantage/disadvantage other than overall height to having the injector bosses in the throttle body vs the manifold?  EFI Hardware has some nice looking  billet throttle bodies that have a tapered bore. These also have injector bosses on both sides and have a built in vacuum port. https://www.efihardware.com/pr...d-bore-throttle-body I'm also wondering if there is a better vacuum signal in the throttle body or the manifold. The manifold I bought has holes in only two of the runners so I would need to drill the others if necessary along with having the bosses welded in before I have the manifold powder coated.

Randy, congratulations on the manifold purchase. I think the EFI Hardware TB’s look great but I don’t know anyone that’s used them. I hate to see you be the guinea pig! If you decide to use them, you want the smaller ID units. Have you spoken to Borla about their new billet TB’s? If I were you, I’d probably plug the holes in the manifold and use the vacuum ports in the TB’s. I’d start off by trying to use the injector pockets in the TB’s too. Only move them to the manifold if you have a good reason to move them. Injector placement is a bit of a black art. There are many variables. Talk to experts and Google “fuel injector placement”. Also, get your system totally mocked-up, including linkage, before you powder coat anything! 

davidnunn posted:

Randy, congratulations on the manifold purchase. I think the EFI Hardware TB’s look great but I don’t know anyone that’s used them. I hate to see you be the guinea pig! If you decide to use them, you want the smaller ID units. Have you spoken to Borla about their new billet TB’s? If I were you, I’d probably plug the holes in the manifold and use the vacuum ports in the TB’s. I’d start off by trying to use the injector pockets in the TB’s too. Only move them to the manifold if you have a good reason to move them. Injector placement is a bit of a black art. There are many variables. Talk to experts and Google “fuel injector placement”. Also, get your system totally mocked-up, including linkage, before you powder coat anything! 

Thanks David... good advice. I will contact Borla about their throttle bodies. There doesn't seem to be a lot of choices out there...Borla, Jenvey, or EFI Hardware. Am I missing anyone other than maybe some Chinese knockoffs?

davidnunn posted:

Hey, I hear you. I'm not going to change anything. I have a special lifting bracket that lets me lift the engine back into the car without removing the TB's or the linkage, so I'm not going to! 

Re: ZF - that's one of my biggest concerns. I have an M1 ZF, which Lloyd Butfoy says is a bit stronger than a regular -2 ZF, but like -2 ZF's, it doesn't like to be shocked. No side stepping the clutch! I also have a smaller clutch assy. than most Panteras. I have a 157 tooth aluminum flywheel and 10.5" McLeod diaphragm pressure plate with an aluminum friction ring. It revs like crazy but gets off the line fine. I use a good old fashioned organic disc with full marcel and a sprung hub. Engagement is beautiful but I know I'll "cook" it if I get too crazy!     

Too crazy? "Mrs. Teacher, it's not my fault. The guy in the Corvette laughed at me and made me do it!" Restraint. Sure. Where have I heard that before?

Best and most interesting thread on this forum!!!  

Randy, Borla’s new billet TB’s look great but they also look tall. Here’s a little know source for TB’s,  that we all know: IPSCO. Don’t know if he still makes them but it’s worth a phone call or e-mail. That’s what I have and had zero tuning issues. Isn’t that half the battle: just finding TB’s that you’ve actually seen running on an engine? 

Thanks David, I will contact IPSCO. I haven't seen any billet throttle bodies from Borla, they all look cast to me. Did IPSCO ever make any TB's with the injector boss in the body? The more I think about it I'm probably not going to be too concerned with keeping everything under the decklid. From what I have seen it's a pretty small cutout that is needed and if I save the piece it could always be returned to stock if needed. I'm also wondering about linkages...what did you use to join the IPSCO throttle shafts, and what did you use for lever arms, throttle stops etc...? 

Randy, IPSCO only made the low profile TB’s because Dennis Quella wanted to offer an under-deck system. I don’t think they ever made tall TB’s with injector pockets. I’d ask Borla about their billet TB’s. I think they were called “Pro” TB’s.? Not sure why I keep forgetting to point you towards Jenvey in the UK. Their TB’s are a proven product. 10/10. They have distribution in the USA too. If I’m not mistaken, most of my linkage and little hardware bits came from Kinsler but anything related to the drive-by-wire is custom by Autotrend EFI in Diamond Springs, CA. Kinsler told me that’s where they turn when they have a problem. Hint: Autotrend EFI is also a Holley EFI dealer. Their prices are the same as Summit but you have help when you need it, and you will. 

panteradoug posted:

I've been waiting for someone to ask or mention this system that's been up on Ebay for a year or so.

It has some interesting features such as individual throttle adjustment, various head adaptability and 51mm throttle bodies.

I know of no one who has used them and the lack of mentioning the set up here kind of confirms that.

Personally I tried to get tech information on them from the seller and their response is basically, "here it is, this is it".

I presume no one here has tried it?

 https://www.ebay.com/itm/fits-...a:g:4vwAAOSwmPFchvCB

I looked at this system a few years ago and received the same response from the seller.  I asked for names of other customers or testimonials of people that have used them on a 351C's and they could not provide any. 

I did find some people using the 289 & 302 versions that were very pleased with it. There are some videos on Youtube of a guy running one in a kit car cobra if I remember correctly. 

I wouldn't automatically dismiss it as junk. It is obvious to me that there is knowledgeable engineering present. The issue is that it's highly likely you are going to need some technical assistance setting it up.

Unless there is an encyclopedia that is supplied with it, that system you just are going to have to figure out for yourself? That's really a shame. It looks very promising. Most of the right boxes seem to have been checked in designing it.

Spotted on Instagram, May 28, 2019. Looks like a Holley ECU, Borla “Weber style” TB’s and a Borla IR intake manifold with cast-in MAP/IAC plenum. In fact, this is the prototype of Borla’s 351C IR intake manifold. The owner of the car says the EFI system was finished on May 24 and believes the manifold will be available very soon, if it isn’t already. 

A few thoughts- D Quella used to sell both a tall and a short  8-stack EFI for the 351-C using separate left/rt intakes & a valley cover.  That led to complications in at least one engine with alloy heads: engine fully warmed up, the intakes expanded away from each other and 'pulled' on the throttle connector link, which changed the idle speed. Tricky to find, too as it was temp dependent. I expect the problem to be worse with all-alloy engines. Call Dennis- he doesn't do email & Becky retired.

Coupling vacuum lines from all 8 stacks into a plenum sometimes equals zero vac. I had better luck using a single plain rubber vac hose about 12" long, rather than all-steel, braided steel or other shiny overkill joined together. The rubber seemed to introduce a 'delay' that allowed vacuum sourced from one TBI time to actually move a vacuum advance. Worked for years.

Finally, whatever 8-stack assembly you buy including Webers, do yourself a favor and purchase a fiberglas rear decklid to trim for rear stack clearance & put your stock lid on a shelf for the next owner who will have different ideas. A  perfect steel decklid is almost irreplaceable now, and a few years ago, you couldn't give away a cut lid for scrap. The glas lids are 50% lighter and cheaper, too.

davidnunn posted:

Spotted on Instagram, May 28, 2019. Looks like a Holley Terminator ECU, Borla “Weber style” TB’s and a Borla IR intake manifold with cast-in MAP/IAC plenum. In fact, this is the prototype of Borla’s 351C IR intake manifold. The owner of the car says the EFI system was finished on May 24 and believes the manifold will be available very soon, if it isn’t already. 

Well that's interesting, I'm still thinking about what you said about the plenum size and what or who determines how big it should be. I am not planning on running power brakes on my car as I believe a properly sized manual system should work well. Hopefully I will be able to piece together something that works well using the Hall manifold. If not it's great to see more choices available to Pantera owners. Those Weber style throttle bodies seem much taller than some of the others I have been looking at and most likely would require cutting of the decklid.

bosswrench posted:

A few thoughts- D Quella used to sell both a tall and a short  8-stack EFI for the 351-C using separate left/rt intakes & a valley cover.  That led to complications in at least one engine with alloy heads: engine fully warmed up, the intakes expanded away from each other and 'pulled' on the throttle connector link, which changed the idle speed. Tricky to find, too as it was temp dependent. I expect the problem to be worse with all-alloy engines. Call Dennis- he doesn't do email & Becky retired.

Coupling vacuum lines from all 8 stacks into a plenum sometimes equals zero vac. I had better luck using a single plain rubber vac hose about 12" long, rather than all-steel, braided steel or other shiny overkill joined together. The rubber seemed to introduce a 'delay' that allowed vacuum sourced from one TBI time to actually move a vacuum advance. Worked for years.

Finally, whatever 8-stack assembly you buy including Webers, do yourself a favor and purchase a fiberglas rear decklid to trim for rear stack clearance & put your stock lid on a shelf for the next owner who will have different ideas. A  perfect steel decklid is almost irreplaceable now, and a few years ago, you couldn't give away a cut lid for scrap. The glas lids are 50% lighter and cheaper, too.

Good advice Bosswrench, as mentioned I plan on running manual brakes and timing will be handled by ecu. The only need for a vacuum signal will be for the MAP sensor. As for the decklid I think any good sheet metal fabricator can make a cut decklid look good as new fairly easily.

Randy, here’s a pic of some standard Borla throttle bodies. You’ll notice they are significantly shorter than the Weber style TB’s. Car is a ‘56 Lincoln. 

Re: non-boosted brakes - I tried simply eliminating the booster but my pedal was just too heavy. I believe the problem was, the Pantera’s brake pedal is too short to give adequate leverage. SACC has a Wilwood pedal kit which gives the correct leverage for non-boosted brakes. 

davidnunn posted:

Randy, here’s a pic of some standard Borla throttle bodies. You’ll notice they are significantly shorter than the Weber style TB’s. Car is a ‘56 Lincoln. 

Re: non-boosted brakes - I tried simply eliminating the booster but my pedal was just too heavy. I believe the problem was, the Pantera’s brake pedal is too short to give adequate leverage. SACC has a Wilwood pedal kit which gives the correct leverage for non-boosted brakes. 

Thanks David, those do look much shorter. I'm still trying to find the measurement from the block china rails to the bottom of the decklid. As for the brakes, I have already adapted Wilwood pedals to my car using a universal mount I picked up from Speedway Motors. I had to do a little surgery but I think it will work.

Randy, your pedal conversion looks great. If I’m not mistaken, the Pantera Si had non-boosted brakes too.