The skin has a slight curveture to it both directions, but it wraps very nicely round the stiffer inner frame without having to use an english Wheel.
The lid fit the car very nicely. I need to take Pictures of the lid fitted to the car tomorrow.
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But I would have guessed less Orange and more Red, perhaps it is the Light?
Dont forget I have your fast Steering Rack in my Garage all done and just ready to fit.
You're right, the light in the paintbooth does change the tone of the color. But, it still is quite orangy-redish in normal light too.
Car got the Black stuff put on on today, looks really cool I think. Will pick-up car tommorrow - now the fun will begin.
I'll need to take the trip over the bridge soon
Looking forward to more pictures as the car progresses.
Rocky
Ron
Can you beat Goran with the weight? He claims 1071 kg.
I added the Gr5 rear spoiler, a lot of the euro Gr4 racers use this version. I like it.
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I think that's what the braided hose with the thermo-covering on it is...
Rocky
quote:Will the hose from the dry sump oil pump go into the cockpit? Or is that temporary...
I think that's what the braided hose with the thermo-covering on it is...
That's temporary - the lines are just joined to seal the oil system. There will be a u-turn fitting with the return line to the dry-sump tank.
Btw - it's a RoushYates 358 D3.
quote:
Originally posted by Push1267:
... it's a RoushYates 358 D3 ...
Great choice
cam ?? compression? The blade spoiler is my preference too. May I add my compliments very impressive!
It's a nationwide spec. roller engine, compared to the Flat tappet Cup motors. A little less power and torque, around 800 HP and 530-550 Ft-lbs, compared to the Cup motors around 850-870 HP - still (a lot) more than my skills can handle.
I will need to detune a little (I think), probably a less aggressive cam to lower max rpm to around 8000 and maybe thicker headgaskets to lower compression to under the current 12.1.
The block is a 9" deck R451 dry sump with a Bryant crank (3.260 stroke), Plankl rods and Mahle pistons (4.15 bore). Heads are Yates D3s with titanium valves, retainers and locks and jesel valvetrain. Carburator is a Holley 830 nascar.
I'll be taking my chances with the ZF, after all, aren't they supposed to be able to handle 550 Ft-lbs ??
quote:You can't run in Europe vintage racing series with that engine ... It's not FIA legal
Maybe if I paint it blue they won't notice !!
Yes, I know it's not legal - my intention is to use it for the Danish Hillclimp series in the open class and maybe some invitational events where they have very relaxed ruling.
I'll need yet another engine if I'll do the historic races .
The factory gr4 cars had aluminum skins on the headlightbuckets, so I thought I would wan't that too :-). From an old rusty set of buckets, I made this set of lightweight headlight buckets with aluminum skin and all excess metal cut off.
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Thus, we did the "goodroc" quickrack steering rack conversion using a new Ford Escort MK1/Mk2 Heavy Duty short stem 2.4 ratio rack from Burton Power in the UK.
As described in Goodroc's thread, this conversion requires a little machining of the housing. Will be interesting to experiment with the position of the rack to evaluate the effect on bumpsteer.
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always good to see your updates, it is a fantastic project!!!
Cheers, Tim.
quote:high-end Intrax race coilovers
Those are sexy! And you will be able to show them off looking very great for quite a while before you get road-grime on them!
PS> I really enjoy this thread. You are doing great work.
Rocky
quote:Enough room for the caliper inside the wheels it seems
Wow! That's impressive that you can fit 8-piston calipers inside the 15" wheel. Well done!
quote:Originally posted by Push1267:
Well, I suppose I was motivated enough to invest quite substantially in a set of high-end Intrax race coilovers specifically set-up for my car and it's expected use !
Great choice! The one thing I did different, was to have them set up in colors to my taste, as flashy colors do not fit a 71 car imo ;-)
quote:impressive that you can fit 8-piston calipers inside the 15" wheel.
The calipers were originally designed as F1 calipers in the early seventies, so they are designed to fit inside 13" wheels (I think that is what is used in F1?). Detomaso at some point in 1974-75 decided that they would homologate them for the Pantera.
Kid, you're right about the color of the coilovers, I should have thought about that !! :-). Red goes with the exterior of the car !!. What version of the intrax shocks are you using?
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quote:Originally posted by Push1267:
Kid, you're right about the color of the coilovers, I should have thought about that !! :-). Red goes with the exterior of the car !!. What version of the intrax shocks are you using?
1K2 with titan coating. Back then I just asked whether a black/grey finish was possible, which was, and as far as I can remember, at no extra cost (my invoice doesn't mention it as an extra neither). :-)
I just came across your thread. amazing build !
I have just sent you a pm as for the 8 pistons calipers.
Thanks
The lifter bores have offset bronzebushings and a cam tunnel is installed around the cam.
Not shown is the oil scavenge system that pull oil from the lifter valley via the dry sump pump
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They included the dynorun after last fresh-up
Thinking about limiting the revs to 7000 ...
Not entirely convinced that this is of my engine, as the roller motors usually does not rev beyond 9000 but parts in the engine does match the buildsheets
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A lower rev limit would be wise to get longevity, but where is the cam happy for vintage racing?
If I drop my race engine shifts by 1000 rpm to 9500 I get maybe another 250 miles between rebuilds....
quote:What is Rousch recommended refresh/rebuild interval on the engine? I bet in NASCAR they tear them down after every weekend!
A lower rev limit would be wise to get longevity, but where is the cam happy for vintage racing?
If I drop my race engine shifts by 1000 rpm to 9500 I get maybe another 250 miles between rebuilds....
Yes, Roush takes them apart every race and freshen them up - typically 400-500 miles. The files for this motor shows very detailed monitoring of each component with miles and last replacement. It's not clear how many miles they put on all parts, but some are replaced every race.
With the kind of racing I intend to do, I would expect a much longer service life. I may restrict it to 7500-8000 rpm, so it will not run anywhere near it's potential.
That was my initial thought about purchasing this engine, an engine with high quality parts that I can run below it's full potential with good durability. The 351C is just more fragile, and I'll only consider that if I wan't to run the FIA sanctioned races.
Regarding the cam, I ordered a cam degree kit, to help determine duration and lift. The files show a 325C cam (duration maybe), with lift around .825 in/ex.
I am considering increasing head gasket thickness (Cometic gaskets come in many thickness and are reusable), and reducing lift/duration by changing rockers arms. This engine run a 2.1:1 rocker arm ratio, and by changing that to maybe 1.9:1, lift is reduced by around 10% and duration profile is lowered too (by how much I'm not sure). Rocker arms are available used/new from Yates, at reasonable prices.
I cannot lower rpm too much as the D3 heads are ported for high rpm, - they flow around 420 cfm on the intakes.
There's an interesting article about them at D3 heads
/Kristian
Very long time since I updated this thread. Not much work going on sadly.
However, I thought it would be cool to do some historic graphics on the car. So here's what we came up with. Not all done and still need to change the Pantera script a little, it's too fat, but otherwise pretty close.
Replicating the Dubois car #2860 in it's 1972 Spa-Francorchamps livery.
Period correct yes, polically correct, not so much :-).
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Sorry I fail to see whats not politically correct 😉
I looks really cool to me 👍👍👍👍👍
Fantastic job , A Gr4 (replica) is also on my wish list .
all the best into the New Year .
Simon
I can hear it now going up and down the parking ramps at the mall screaming at 9,500 rpm! I want to say, shift into second now!
OK, loooong time since some updates on this project.
After deciding to run the Gr4 car in the Danish Hillclimp series, and getting confirmation that it is in fact possible to classify the car in the Competition (B) Class for modified cars, I seem to have found some motivation to try and move the project along.
We did go through the engine - just to make sure everything is fine. So everything was inspected cleaned and found fine and put back together.
We replaced the main and rods bearings (some trick Elliot Coated parts from Yates), Cometic gaskets and vacuum seals and the crank was polished (just as a precaution). But everything were looking good.
Also had Scott at Eatmon Race Engines design a new cam for it, that moves the powerband somewhat down - i.e. with a max power around 8300 rpm but with a stronger more usable midrange. Still a pretty aggressive cam with a duration of 266/270 at .050. Power is reduced to around 750 hp.
The RYRE D3 heads had the titanium valves replaced, installed new PSI valve spings to match the cam and was vacuum tested.
Just need to degree the cam (the cam has 102/103 centerline) and the engine is all ready.
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I notice you are using a timing belt ?
what brand ?
Simon
It looks great!
Looks fast!
Thanks for all the comments - to Simon, the belt drive on the engine is a Roush Yates.
Here's a little bit of an update on the project - it's been going a little slow but I did finish most of the modifications to the front-end of the car. Remember the car is being build to replicate the early gr4 Panteras (from pictures), as they looked when they first hit the track i the spring of 1972.
Here's the front - the huge oilcooler, brake ducts w/scoops cut into the front, modified grill (yes, I cut up a perfectly fine early chrome grill to copy the gr4 look - awesome !!!:-) ), aluminum headlight buckets incl manuel raising mechanism, aluminum hood and just finished copying the blade spoiler in aluminum (need paint).
Pretty time consuming work
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Looks Fantastic, thanks for sharing .
How does works the manual rising mechanism ?
more pictures are welcome.
Simon
what rim size F+R and brand of tires are you planned to use ?
Simon
Fantastic work as always, many of the current crop of Group 4 race cars seem to have acquired the later GT5 style air dam. What brand tires do you have? I would be interested to see the headlight mechanism. Will you be replicating the adjustable sway bars as well?
Yes, the Gt5 airdam is probably much more effective than the simple blade spoiler - but that's not the point in this build :-).
The wheels are the Marvic Gr4 magnesium reproductions , 10X15 front and 14X15 rear. The tires are Avon all weather historic race tires, 10.5/23.0-15 and 14.0/27.0-15, that was what I was recommended to use by Patrick Hals.
For the raising of the buckets, I keept the the original gear, and removed the motor and did some trimming of the brackets (had to because of the radiator). So I can raise the buckets manually with the emergency knop. The whole set-up is removable including the aluminum bar. I only have this older not so good picture - I have made some smaller trimming and changes to the set-up since then.
I intend to have the original adjustable Gr4 sway bars fabricated. I do have the drawings and measurements of them, including the modifications that were done to the a-arms and the chassis - the center mounts were moved outwards in the rear.
I would need to find a company that can build the sway bars though - any leads? Julian, if you are interested in a set for your car too, maybe we can figure something out.
Kristian
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I don't know what kind of bars you will be using but this company built custom axles and custom hollow anti-sway-bars for my race cars many years ago. Great job and no failures.
I was assuming I could just fabricate adjustable end links for my current sway bars, but certainly if the correct ones are available I would be interested in a set.
good news to see that this beautiful replica is progressing well !!!!!
It looks like an Italian movie star in a red dress. Very sexy, especially from the back. I'd definitely send over a drink.
Don't you need to run Webers like the factory cars did to qualify for vintage?
48 IDA Webers were homologated for the Gr-3 and Gr-4 but were options. The Holley #213 (list 4778) was the carb mostly used, I think. You do know there's a Swedish-run Registry for Gr-3 Panteras with a 14 page Supplemental Parts List that covers Gr- 3 and 4 parts. Browse to www.scuderiadetomaso.se, run by Anders Hellburg. He's still active- got an e-mail from him last week.
Hi Boss,
are you sure that it was a Holley 4778 that was specified in the supplementary parts list for GR3 and GR4? I think it only says List 213, which doesn't seem to correspond to anything, and everything I have seen posted seems to suggest great confusion about what the mysterious Holley 213 carb is. I speculate it is a date code and someone messed up when writing down the Holley model number and put the date code instead.
Cheers Tim
Kristian, great to see you working on the GR4 again - seems like the drive in the Grønne djævelskab did you some good :-) There is a funny discussion about it on the FB page for Copenhagen Classic Car Group.
Cheers, Tim.
Yes, the green PB creates quite a stirr everywhere it turns up.
Regarding the carburators used, I do not know which one they are referring to in the supplementary parts list, but in the original Gr4 hand written part list for the Gr4 program that contain all the parts the factory tested and ended up using (that I coincidently am in possession of) they list a R4575 Holley 1050 dominator, that I think was used on the first Gr4s (see picture)?
They do not list the carp for the Gr3s, but they refer to the 390 HP K625J Boss 351 engine for some applications (likely Gr3??) and of course the 520 HP (Bud Moore) engine for the gr4? (see picture)
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Hi Kristian, very cool. Great info. And I think you are right about the K625J, there are plenty of references on the internet to that being in the 1971 351 Boss Mustang. So maybe it used the same carb too in the Pantera GR3.
Cheers, Tim.
Hi Tim, I still have what I presume is the original Holley for my GR3 at home. I will have a look when I get to it and perhaps read some numbers off. Give me a couple of weeks........
Sounds great, many thanks! cheers Tim
a looong while back, there was a road test of a Gr-3 Pantera by Peter Revson reported in a car magazine. In the story Revson called out the particular Holley used. I think George Pence also mentioned which one it was in one of his 'stickys' on this site- which I can no longer access.
Where can I get that Blade spoiler for that Grp4 recreation your building, I too am running a belt Drive a Danny B unit and Ingles electronic FI that look like webbers,Does anyone have pictures of the 2 different types of Revson front spoilers?
I don't store photos but they're in the older threads. The original Revson spoiler is curvaceous and is level with the bottom of the original nose sheet metal. The later one has a small splitter molded into its shape. Never tried it, have no idea how it works. The ground clearance looks quite close to the original. As I said in the previous post, Larry Stock's Pantera Parts Connection in NV has all those spoilers and might even have shots on his comprehensive web site.
You can't buy that spoiler anywhere.
It is a one-off that I made in 1,5 mm aluminum. It was made as a repica of the early Gr4 1972-73 gr4 racers from studying period correct pictures.
It's actually a 3-piece design that's riveted together in the center - the thinking being, that while racing the car, damaged pieces of the spoiler can easily be replaced.
I actually made another for a bloke in Germany, but even then, I can't guarantee that it will fit other cars than mine, as the placement of the flares may vary from car to car.
It's also designed to work with/wrap around the oilcooler, so running the spoiler w/o the cooler will look odd.
Kristian