Contrversial lineage of the Pantera.

The spine was one of those things that didn't scale up well. By the time you double the weight of the car, it just isn't rigid enough. Europas worked pretty dang good, but it didn't translate into v-8 land. Just like you can't make a cockroach that is six feet long. It couldn't stand up or breath cause it would not be able to support the weight via exoskeloton. Some things just don't scale well.
BTW, Ema is still looking good for being close to 70.

quote:

Originally posted by comp2:
...I actually question the validity of that. I know they were working with Shelby and Ford at the time but that was one of many deals Shelby left with some one else holding the bag. I think people like to tout it was the next car in their sequence but I believe it over rated. ...

I wasn't clear. Let me try to clarify my meaning. Neither Ford or Shelby planned for the Mangusta to replace the Cobra. I'm not trying to imply there is any connection between the two cars. There is absolutely not.

Shelby's relationship with Ford broke down in 1967. DeTomaso wanted a business relationship with Ford like Shelby had, as a supplier of specialty cars. DeTomaso saw an "opening" and produced the "Mangusta" in 1968 to "fill the void" left by the Cobra. It was not produced at the request of Ford or Shelby, DeTomaso produced it on his own. Alejandro was just being the fast moving businessman that he was. DeTomaso named it the Mangusta (Mongoose), it is obvious DeTomaso had the Cobra in mind when he did this.

Instead of writing "The Mangusta was designed to replace the Cobra as Ford's sports car." I could have written "DeTomaso built the Mangusta with the hope that it would replace the Cobra as Ford's next sports car after relations with Shelby broke down, thereby giving him a foot in the door with Ford".

Clear as mud?

Clear as mud? Yes, why didn't you say so.

How about many people influenced this car and is in it's own right is an original!

I like that.

quote:

Originally posted by comp2:
...I don't see the difference in the spine chassis killing the connection between the Mangusta and the Pantera. They were both Detomaso/Ford V8 mid engine cars designed one right after another...

Entirely different designers. The Pantera was a clean sheet design. Not an evolution, a whole new car. The same manufacturer, yes. And the Pantera designers had the benefit of the lessons learned with the Mangusta design. That's it though.

Oh yeah Gary. There has never been anything like the Pantera before or since. The Pantera is a true GT car. Lots of cars call themselves that but hardly any are. The Ford GT was a race car pretending to be a GT car. A true GT car is for rich guys to take their girl friends to the resort for the weekend. That is what GT means. Millionaire playboy touring car. The ultimate in pussie wagons.

Many Corvettes were a "Clean Sheet" of paper but neither them or the Panteras would have been the cars they were without their predecessors regardless of who designed them.

G

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:
Oh yeah Gary. There has never been anything like the Pantera before or since. The Pantera is a true GT car. Lots of cars call themselves that but hardly any are. The Ford GT was a race car pretending to be a GT car. A true GT car is for rich guys to take their girl friends to the resort for the weekend. That is what GT means. Millionaire playboy touring car. The ultimate in pussie wagons.

I wasn't there so I don't know who did what to who. Apparently though there was a lot of people doing a lot of other people. Apparently it was one of those circle things.

I read somewhere back in the 70s that Pete Brock was credited with the "idea" of making a center spine high performance sports car. (Yes I can remember the '70s).
Specifically, the Mangusta. Actually, if I can find the quote, I swear it said that the central core chassis was his design.

I don't remember who wrote it but I read it.

A lot of those auto writers back then were like DT. They would write stuff knowing it wasn't true but it would just stir things up and maybe they would spook out some nice unknown gossip. At least get a story out of it.

Brock worked for Shelby in the '60s. It most likely came to an end at the termination of the '67 Shelby's (the SC Cobras are '67s) and the experation of the LA Airport terminal lease.

I know that they weren't on speaking terms for something like 30 years after that. Maybe they weren't too close back in the SA LA days either?

Brock had been in Italy working for Shelby with the Cobra coupe project.

Whether or not it was he, Pete Brock, that met Detomaso there and introduced him to Shelby, I don't know.
It seems like Shelby knows absolutely everyone anyway.

Shelby had been searching himself for something to build after the Cobra. The car that comes to mind in that light is what we now call the Lonestar Coupe. I think that car may have also influenced the design of the 427 Cobra Coupe.

I don't remember if the Lonestar was Brocks design but I think all the "Coupes" were including the 427.

Everyone seemed to acknowledge that the GT40 could never be even a limited production vehicle. Who knew?

The point is that Shelby is involved in the "goose". I don't think that there was money involved, Shelby's that is, but because of his close connections at Ford, Shelby was very influencial.

If he stood around at a cocktail party and said something like my pal Iococa would kill for a high performance sports GT, a lot of people would hear that and put things in the works.
Especially if Carroll was his buddy and could fix him up with Lee.

Funny how the Ford SB fits the Mangusta. Well it sorta' does anyway.

Tha Pantera is largely independent of all that crap and was developed by Detomaso all on his own. He took it to Ghia to get drawn up. Kinda' like you go to H&R Block to get your taxes done.

No body but Detomaso and Ghia. No Shelby, no Ford, nobody. But wait, didn't Ford own Ghia? Gee, how does that work now? Wow, I thought I had it all figured out.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
... But wait, didn't Ford own Ghia...

not in 1969.

One thing you can be sure of a Pantera is the creation of two men .. their dream their vision ..good or bad .. he used a Ford engine he could have used any engine and the outcome would have been the same or better.

As compared to the Cobra .. that was the compilation of good ole english craftsmanship and a Chicken farmer who painted the same car 10 different colors and tried to sell it to the big 3. The only reason it sold was because of a deal gone bad between Ford and Ferrari. Ford was determined to beat Ferrari...do you think he was going to try to beat an Italian with and Italian car .. no way.

You want to hear debate about lineage ... on the AC site the debate is the lineage of the same model ... MKI, MKII, MKIII MKIV and the prototype MKV. Who's is more original ... bla bla bla ... boy I'm glad there are no Pantera generations that came after it.

The lineage is Unique to it self and inspired many cars that came after it.

Ron

I have more respect for Peter brock then I do for Shelby. He was not finished developing the Daytona Coupe when it raced. Superformance brought him on. He was at frst reluctant to work for a "Kit Car" company but after working with them, they gave him complete control of the development of the SF Coupe. He finished the development the way he wanted to in the 60's. The did 200+ MPH first time out with A/C in the car.

Shelby sued SF as he did all the other kit car companies ut they had $ to fight him. His lawsuits were thrown out and has since joined forces as he has been unable to find anyone else to build his cars. Now they are calling it Shelbies SF Coupe. Frankly I think Peter Brock got shafted.

Link:

http://www.superformance.com/coupe.aspx

So what do you think DT? Can I cook or what?

Gary there is a right up on the SF coupe in this months car and driver. I want one. But then again, I want a lot of different cars I will never have. But I DO have a Pantera. She is shivering in the garage right now. It is like 9 degrees here now.
Doug you are hereby invited to come over and cook up some three alarm chille. I love hot chille in the winter time.

Detom, that is why I love car shows. I go look at all the cars and I am grateful that people put all this work and money into each cars so I view it while they pay the bills and take care of it. I do my share.

9 degrees, wow, a heat wave. It was -9 deg here in central Illinois last night. Wanting to work on car, but it is too cold to move it from one garage to the other.

And my 2 cents worth. The Pantera is its own car. It was an American Mid-engine car built offshore by a partner company. I guess that is what Jag, Astin Martin, and Volvo are now days.

Yeah but none of those companies build a mid engined sports car. I guess Audi is going to in a few years. Porsche had one for a few years and quit building it. There are just not that many mainstreme companies willing to take the risk anymore.

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
... But wait, didn't Ford own Ghia...

not in 1969.

DeTomaso purchased Ghia in 67. Ford got it when they bought DeTomaso.

quote:

Porsche had one for a few years and quit building it.

Boxster/Cayman

quote:

Originally posted by jeff6559:
...DeTomaso purchased Ghia in 67...

Yes

quote:

Originally posted by jeff6559:
...Ford got it when they bought DeTomaso...

No. I believe Isabelle said they sold Ghia to Ford in 1972. Ford NEVER owned DeTomaso.

quote:

Ford NEVER owned DeTomaso.

Okay, I'm confused. (So what else is new, everything involving DeT was always confusing.) The concept of DeTomaso as one company was never true. He was a master financier and there were many DeT companies formed so that he could get his hands on more cash, ie. other people's cash, so he could pursue other ventures.

Here's what I thought I knew. A DeT company that was responsible for the Pantera (DeT Automobili?) was sold to Isabella's brother's company, and I thought that it included Ghia, and that is what was bought by Ford. And I know that another DeTomaso company continued as a sep entity doing motorcycles, etc. So I guess I'm not really clear on what was sold to Ford and how.

So what was the story?

There have been inaccuracies circulated in print for decades, the DeTomaso family has never attempted to correct the record.

Ford fronted money to get the Pantera project underway at the production level they required, for this they were given a portion of stock in Ghia. The DeTomaso family sold their remaining (controlling) interest in Ghia to Ford in 1972.

The only agreement between Ford and the DeTomsos regarding the Pantera was that Ford had the rights to import and distribute the Pantera in North America.

I have notes at home regarding the name change from DeTomaso Automobili to DeTomaso Modena, but can't remember off hand what the details are (senior moment). I think Ford had the rights to use the name DeTomaso Automobili for a short time in the 1970s and the DeTomaso family began operating under the name DeTomaso Modena.

This subject is touched upon in a story in the next issue of PI mag.

George

quote:

The DeTomaso family sold their remaining (controlling) interest in Ghia to Ford in 1972.

I guess I always thought that in '72 Ford bought the remaining 20% or so that they did not already own.

Well, as they say, it's history. WGAS.