Contrversial lineage of the Pantera.

Of course you won DT, you have a Pantera.

quote:

Originally posted by jwr2968:
...I thought the pantera chassis came from the mangusta...

No.

The Mangusta employs a big box section "spine" to tie the front suspension to the rear. The rear suspension & motor were mounted to a sub-frame, that was in turn bolted to a big plate at the rear of the spine. The coach simply sat on top of the spine. The coach plays no part in the structural integrity of the vehicle, it is not a stressed member. Of course, with the Mangusta, the spine didn't do much of that either! LOL ........

The Pantera is a true uni-body (aka monocoque), the coach provides the structural integrity of the vehicle & ties the front assemblies to the rear assemblies, it is a stressed member. Take it on a track & watch it start cracking.

DeTom is an engineer, he knows all this stuff, he just likes stirring up s**t.

George

Detom,

Sorry man but as I pointed out the SOHC's came before the Pantera ..and they became Pantera money so in reality they are IN the Pantera.

So tell me what came after the Pantera in lineage ? .. the BMW M1 ???

quote:

DeTom is an engineer, he knows all this stuff, he just likes stirring up s**t.

George, I had to bud, it was getting too complacent. We needed scandal and controversy, a little fire down below.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
Detom,

Sorry man but as I pointed out the SOHC's came before the Pantera ..and they became Pantera money so in reality they are IN the Pantera.

So tell me what came after the Pantera in lineage ? .. the BMW M1 ???

Ron I said I forgive ya man. I know, you had to get the seed money. It was just a historic oppertunity was lost forever, but that is probably because it wasn't meant to be. Maybe if you had actualy done it the world woulda hit an asteroid or something. Who knows.
But yeah the M1 came later, but I dunno, it was not really a spine car either, and as George pointed out, Neither is the Pantera either. The Panetera is a monocouque. Most modern cars are now. The Pantera was way ahead of it's time in a lot of ways.
Another thing that kinda sticks in my craw. Folks saying the Pantera was not a succes. Bull tinky!!! They sold thousand of the. In the three or four years they sold them they sold way more than the same years of Porsche and ferrari put together. Pantera was probably THE most succesfull exotic EVER. Even to this day. So don't listen to them idiots that don't know crap from shoe polish.

quote:

So don't listen to them idiots that don't know crap from shoe polish.

come on Detom you can say it we are all big boys ... but it may be dating myself " shit from shinola " LOL

I have to say as I look at new cars the Pantera chassis is similiar to the new cars .. only problem is when the get hit .. its a pain in the rear end to straighten them.

Ron

Success from Ford's point of view is selling cars and making money.Unfortunately the Pantera as a new car was an image car for Lincoln Mercury.A hard car to sell and be profitable. As the saying goes the used car market has the tendancy to "fix" a new cars problems. As a used car, especailly from todays point of view it is very successful. There are not may cars that bring the kind of money in relation to its selling price.

Take a look at other image (performanmce) cars of recent history. The Impala SS (with the big motor) hard sell new but now bringing big used car money. The other is the Mauruader - another hard sell new but look at the resale value today.

The Pantera may not HAVE BEEN a success but it is a success today!

quote:

only problem is when the get hit .. its a pain in the rear end to straighten them.

Exactly why it doesn't take much of an accident to total a brand new car anymore. They are making dissposable cars. :O

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The Pantera may not HAVE BEEN a success but it is a success today!

Even back in the day it was a thumping succes. Ford bought the cars for 6K a piece from Detomaso and gave them to dealers for 8K. Dealers sold them for 10K. A pinto RETAILED for less than 2K in them days. The whole car.
Nope the sales failure sob story is a bunch of BS. They made more $ selling one Pantera than a thousand Pintos. I mean look at the Ford GT of late. They sold less than 1500 cars in a run of simular time length. They sold 5000 Panteras in about the same amount of years, for simular costs. Yep 140K today is about what 10K was back in the day. The fact that dealers went ape shit and wanted over 200K for these cars had a big part to play I guess, but the fact remains, the Pantera was a huge hit for what it was.

quote:

They sold 5000 Panteras in about the same amount of years, for similar costs.

True enough. Do the math at about 9%. And 7200 cars were sold worldwide. The Pantera was the GT40 of it's day. And, even considering all the rework costs on the early cars, the Pantera program actually made money. However, the embarassment of the less than enthusiastic press reviews and the costs associated with the new car requirements of the mid 70's together with the fuel crisis killed any enthusiasm for the car at Ford.

BTW, the Vallelunga predated the Europa. DeTomaso and Chapman knew each other and both developed the spine chassis at about the same time. DeTomaso was using it in his early race cars but he rarely gets any credit for developing it.

quote:

BTW, the Vallelunga predated the Europa.

Now THAT, I didn't know. All I remember was Ema peel in her tight leather pant suit kicking bad guy ass and driving her Europa around england. She was hot!!!

The Pantera's dealer mark-up per car was higher than any other Ford/Lincoln/Mercury vehicle had ever been. The dealers made money on them! Corporate Ford's gross income on the project was over $5M (1970 dollars). I'll bet that exceeded their expenditures too. The sole purpose of the car was to increase foot traffic at Lincoln dealerships, which it did. The project cost Ford nothing, the dealer's profit was unprecedented, and the Pantera succeeded in bringing customers to Lincoln dealerships. Sounds successful to me.

There were insiders at Ford pulling to keep the Pantera alive. Technical & production issues were there, but many had been resolved by 1974. The US market went soft on performance cars, but Ford wasn't manufacturing these cars, DeTomaso automobili was. The pinch of low production numbers is felt at the production end. In other words, DeTomaso felt the pinch, not Ford.

The true issue that killed Ford's involvement with the Pantera project were personality (ego) conflicts. Ford brass wasn't going to tolerate it, so the word came down from the top, pull the plug.

If you want a clue, notice that the US GTS Panteras have no DeTomaso badges on them, not one. The DeTomaso badges were all replaced with GTS or Ghia badges (by 1974 Ford owned Ghia). Even the sales literature was edited and any mention of DeTomaso was removed. It was personality conflicts that killed Ford's involvement with the Pantera.

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:
...Ema Peel ... She was hot...

DeTom, on that we agree completely. Actress/model Diana Rigg is gorgeous.

Ahhhhh. Thanks George, I needed that. You wouldn't have any of her in that black leather outfit she wore while driving her Europa would you?? I kinda liked that about her.

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:
...You wouldn't have any of her in that black leather outfit ...

gotcha covered amigo

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:
...You wouldn't have any of her in that black leather outfit ...

gotcha covered amigo

OH YEAH!! That's the stuff!!

you're probably thinking of this outfit, sorry only black & white

That's ok!! Black and white is how I remember her. Ahhh, the memories of a pubescent youth are flowing back into my jaded old mind. I was too young for her then, but NOW, she is mine. All mine.

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:
...NOW, she is mine. All mine...

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:

quote:

Originally posted by comp2:
...Did it go from Mangusta to Pantera...

The Mangusta was designed to replace the Cobra as Ford's sports car. When Ford got around to checking it out, they of course gave it the thumbs down, and rightly so. Although they are a beautiful design, they are a terrible car. So Alejandro told his friend, Lee Iacocca, come to Italy, I have another car to show you. Ghia, under Tom Tjaarda, already had 3 prototypes in the works. Alejandro called Tom into his office and informed him he had a visitor coming and to prepare the prototypes for presentation. One of those prototypes was chosen by Mr Iacocca, and became the Pantera.

I've never read if the prototypes were originally intended to have a spine chassis, or if a uni-body was intended from the beginning. A good question to ask Tom.

George I actually question the validity of that. I know they were working with Shelby and Ford at the time but that was one of many deals Shelby left with some one else holding the bag. I think people like to tout it was the next car in their sequence but I believe it over rated.

The whole thing is like taking a Corvette and making the Nova the next car in sequence. I don't see a bridge other then involvement by some people.

I don't see the difference in the spine chassis killing the connection between the Mangusta and the Pantera. They were both Detomaso/Ford V8 mid engine cars designed one right after another. How could there be no lineage there. The Spine chassis soon found severe handling issues so it was natural it was abondoned. I see no difference in the development of the Corvette and some of the suspension changes it made.