Coolant Weeping Past Head Gasket

Head Gasket...

Did you retorque the head bolts after a few heat/cool cycles? Same say this is important. Others, like me, do not do it and do not have problems.

Did you have any clean-up surface milling on the heads when you replaced the gaskets?

Larry

quote:

Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:
Did you retorque the head bolts after a few heat/cool cycles?

Did you have any clean-up surface milling on the heads when you replaced the gaskets?

I checked torque after first warm up to normal operating temperature and cool down--no movement on new ARP head bolts.

Edelbrock heads are brand new.

If you had the heads checked with a straightedge or surfaced at the machine shop, and you are sure about all of the bolts being correctly torqued, I would venture to guess you had a steam pocket occur. Steam will blow by and right thru the gaskets. Make sure you go thru the proper coolant fill and burping procedure. Happened at the back side of the heads right?

Angelo

...Here's the Question You should be Asked!!
How High did You torque the Bolts?
The 'Book' Lists the FINAL Torque at:

'Stock' Low Compression 351C (Bolts) 105 Ft/Lbs
BOSS 351 High Compression (Bolts) 125 Ft/Lbs (HOT)

I Run the ARP Head STUDS with IRON Heads. I had to Call-Up their Tech Rep to get the Correct Final Torque Setting!! Thats Right, the Nuts with FINE Threads!

Are You ready? 130 Ft/Lbs!

And I Torqued them while the Engine Was Still in the Car, leaning in over the Fender!

And You had Better be using a High Quality Torque Wrench!!...

Did you put a straight edge on the block?

Marlin,

WOW!!! That is contrary to every ARP instruction sheet that I have ever used....personally!

I know for my new engine, that the specs were "smaller" than the OEM specs, so that really surprises me that they would be MORE than the originals....REALLY! Especially for the fine threads.....

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by ANGELO B:
Make sure you go thru the proper coolant fill and burping procedure. Happened at the back side of the heads right?

I'm sure the heads were properly torqued. And, yes, the weeping is at the back of the heads, but I usually spend a lot of time filling the cooling system per all the guidance, especially when I'm not in a hurry.

Ron

quote:

Originally posted by MARLIN JACK:
...Here's the Quetion You should be Asked!!
How High did You torque the Bolts?

Torqued the bolts to 110 ft lbs per the Edelbrock recommendation and concurrence by Gregg Montgomery of Ohio George Montgomery's Speed Shop here in Dayton. George and Gregg are Ford guys. So, I tend to run with their advice and recommendations given their over 100 years of combined engine-building experience.

Ron

quote:

Originally posted by pappy:
Did you put a straight edge on the block?

Unfortunately, no.

Ron

Marlin,

When you say 125ft-lbs on the head bolts...you talkin the Ford/ARP stock type bolt, or the ARP type studs with fine threads?? ( I still can't believe their recommendation....!)

I ditto the thing on cleaning everything with lacquer thinner (or acetone) and then go back and do it again!!!! Haven't had one come back a leaker yet.....

Steve

Hi Steve!

I was Talking about the Ford Head Bolts.
As in The 'Boss 351' Spec.
They Can Take 125 Ft/Lbs!!

Then the Tech advise for Their studs (1/2" Dia.) Was 110 Ft/Lbs Using Their Special Lubricant. I Think it's Just Molybdenum-Disulfide!

130 Ft/Lbs Using 30w Motor Oil.

I used the Latter.
I was also worried I would Strip the Nuts, But they Took It No Problem! Remember we're talking .500" Dia. Not the Smaller 7/16".
The Advantage of The FINE Threads Over COURSE Threads, In 'Clamping Force' is a 40% Increase!
Plus, When using Studs the Entire Assembly is Just More Rigid; Because Bolts Never Fill the Tapped Hole, Completely to the Bottom!!

Real Nice to Hear From You, Steve!

Jack,

I shouldn't have spoken so soon about leakers....just fired my new engine up in the Goose a few minutes ago and found a couple of leaks!!!

One was easy but puzzling! Edelbrock water pump was blowing steam out a bolt hole...that wasn't leaking on the last engine!!! Nothing bolts to it in the Goose....nor did it before!?!!! Stuck a bolt with Form-a-gasket on it and it sealed up fine, water temp now settled down and happy!

Second leak....ugh....all over the floor, at the rear of the block....good news is that it wasn't coolant..... took some pic's for my "ooops I'm doing it again" post in the Goose section, tossed some kitty litter on the mess, and cleaned up.....shut off the lights!

Will see what's going on tomorrow or Thurs. Used a silicon one piece pan seal....and the block has the one piece oil seal (92 roller motor) so either I did some sort of boner thing like put the seal in backwards ( I really do not think so....) Now I am doubting myself....did I even install the rear seal???? That wouldn't be the first time I did a boner thing.......doh! Or the pan seal bunched up..... If I look in the gasket set and find a big round seal....well then...pretty danged obvious!!!! Stupid cars....stupid mechanics.....silly me!

Ciao!
Steve

Marlin...I was replying to Ron with his gasket problem when I asked about a straight edge on the block. I don't pretend to be a machinist but I know some basic rebuild steps....Ron, I hope you find you weeping problem....Pappy

quote:

Originally posted by MARLIN JACK:
...Here's the Quetion You should be Asked!!
How High did You torque the Bolts?
The 'Book' Lists the FINAL Torque at:

'Stock' Low Compression 351C (Bolts) 105 Ft/Lbs
BOSS 351 High Compression (Bolts) 125 Ft/Lbs (HOT)

I Run the ARP Head STUDS with IRON Heads. I had to Call-Up their Tech Rep to get the Correct Final Torque Setting!! Thats Right, the Nuts with FINE Threads!

Are You ready? 130 Ft/Lbs!

And I Torqued them while the Engine Was Still in the Car, leaning in over the Fender!

And You had Better be using a High Quality Torque Wrench!!...

This was my dilemma--Follow the ARP guidance for the bolts or the Edelbrock guidance for the heads?

I would follow the directions of whoever furnished the bolts/studs.

quote:

Originally posted by forestg:
I would follow the directions of whoever furnished the bolts/studs.

I bought a head bolt kit from Edelbrock that came in a Edelbrock packaging but was actually made by ARP. I went with the Edelbrock recommendations to bolt in my Edelbrock aluminum heads.

...We're all just here to Help You fix Your Cat so You can get it out and drive and enjoy it!
I meant to Add: That out of 20 'drilled and Tapped' holes in the Cleveland block... One or Two are Bound to be Broken/Cracked into the Very Close, Water Jacket!! It is Very Good Insurance to put a good Sealer on the Bolt (stud) Threads when Installing!...

A few things which may be of use. NAPA carries carbon impression paper
that can be put between the head and block to see if your head and block
are sufficiently flat to ensure a good seal. When using premium multi-layer
steel gaskets, a finish of 15 microinches Ra or less is recommended.

For head gaksets, I like the Victor Reinz 3502SG (for 351C). It's their
nitroseal material (graphite on a steel core). No sealer or re-torque
required. They were $50 each last time I bought a pair. Don't confuse
the 3502SG with their rebuilder type head gasket (paper mesh on steel core)
which is Victor Reinz 3502 without the SG. Victor also has a headgasket for
higher cylinder pressures (nitrous or boost), p/n 3446 for 351Cs but I've
not used any of those.

What I usually do is buy a pair of Victor Reinz head gaskets and a Fel Pro
performance gasket set for everything else. A SBF engine builder turned me
on to the Victor Reinz SG's. He was building several SBF's per week and had
a big long peg holding the Fel Pro head gaskets that he would give away free.
Based upon occasional problems he had with the Fel Pro performance head
gaskets, he much prefers the Victor Reintz performance head gaskets which
were originally designed for heavy duty marine applications.

Replacing the headgaskets and making sure the block and heads are flat
with the proper surface is the best fix but you can also try K&W Block
Seal (in the copper colored can) to seal up any porosity. We've used it
numerous times to fix leaks on everything from my dad's 1937 Chrysler
Imperial (overported block leaking into exhaust manifold) to a Rolls Royce
aluminum V8 (headgasket) to my sister's Chrysler minivan. The stuff works
when it's properly used. It's essentially a sodium silicate solution
(similar to egg preservative from drug stores). Since the 1960's Chrysler
and Jaguar (and likely other manufacturers) used the stuff to fix porous
castings. The K&W directions instruct you to get all the coolant
(including that in the block which means opening the block drains) out. It's
a two day process as you will need to let it set up for 24 hours. Follow the
instructions to the letter. Drain all the coolant out. To do this you'll
need to remove the block drain plugs then flush water through the system.
Re-fill with water and use a can of K&W block seal. Then run the engine and
drain again and let it set up over night. Silicate is soluble in cold water
but precipitates from hot water to form a glassy inorganic coating that adheres
well.

Dan Jones

I'm with Dan on the block sealer, if you know you have checked everything and still have a leak, small cracks and porosity in the block,leaking past the threads etc, then the block sealer is the way to go short of another tear down.

Mark

I appreciate all the advice and words of wisdom. The weeping is not a big issue this summer. So, I'll have all winter to figure out what approach to take to fix. Don't know what we'd do to keep our cars alive without the Internet and forums like this one

Thanks again.

Ron