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critique and blue book - 72 pantera

G Guest
Hi all - have been lurking - ready to pull trigger - could you experts please help me critique this car (within the limitation that these are just photos and obviously there could be more with an in person inspection - which I will do if i go forward) - the pictures may be found at: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/edlebby/album?.dir=/2862r...actn,del%3as,1%3af,0

These are my observations/questions:

-- It is a pre-L car, although it appears that the small chrome part-bumpers have been painted to match the body color (is that factory or someone did that later?) - the car is listed as a "1972 Pantera" - no other model number is given - was there only one model for 1972 - would features in the pix confirm this is indeed a 1972?

-- the car looks like it has definitely been driven given the carbon deposits and grime in and around the exhaust

-- the wheels appear to be original the tires do not - are these the original wheels for a 1972 - or are they from an earlier/later model?

-- the upper-body looks to be in pretty good shape - there does not appear to be cowl rust - i cannot see any other obvious bubbling low in fenders or doors (but no close ups) - clearly lots of rust elsewhere, we'll come on to that - what do you think, my eye is not that expert - danger signs? waves? bubbles?

-- is the body correct for 72 - correct fender flares, etc.? or has it been modified?

-- can you tell if the glass is original (by the way - how much does originality/numbers matching matter with these cars - from what i have seen...not much...true?)

-- grill and hood vents correct for a 72?

-- square side view mirrors correct for a 72?

-- assume that is a radio antenna coming up through the right fender - correct and right for the car?

-- paint seems to be pretty good - is this an original color for 72?

-- interior looks pretty used - but not abused - thoughts? I do see the rip in the driver side seat - after market OEM style covers available? what about the mouse fur on top of the rockers - correct?

-- have seen pictures where a lot of the buttons are behind the shifter on the console (does that come later) is the guage cluster, buttons, console, etc. all correct for 72

-- obviously and aftermarket radio - big deal to find an original? repopped?

-- could not see any cracks in the dash and guage area - actually looks pretty clean - agree?

-- shoulder belts seem to be missing (or are these not an option on a 72)?

-- in one picture looking through the drivers door there appears to be an aluminum bar around where an emergency brake release handle would be on a foot brake - any thoughts?

-- are the speakers on either side of the console in the foot wells stock? i am guessing not - i note the broken kick panels on the inside of the foot well (passenger side) both where the speaker is and on the outside where there appears to be a fuse box - how big a deal - replacement parts available?

-- notice some brown spots on both seats right where the lap belt tensioners are - what is this? holes that are showing the stuffing? rusting of a metal part there?

-- is the steering wheel stock? if not, how a big a deal to find an oem style one?

-- what is the white button/switch below the speedo in the dash - something after market?

-- weather stripping around doors appears ok - but i note the surface rust around the fasteners - problem?

-- passenger side weather strippin above door latch seems to be birthing some crud - thoughts?

-- carpeting looks ok - agree?

-- inner door panel and trim behind seats looks ok - agree?

-- rear view mirror correct?

-- clearly there has been some after market work on the wiring - see a good chunk of wires hanging in the passenger foot-well area - some of that must be the radio - maybe some after market ignition stuff?

-- headliner fabric look ok - clearly some sags and some areas coming off the roof - material still available? supporting rods up there?

-- courtesy lamp looks ok - no rust on base (that is visible) - plastic not cracked - - agree?

-- the sun visors look a bit overstuffed - stock?

-- windshield and rear window gaskets seem ok from what little you can see - - agree?

-- hood compartment - looks terrible - the radiator has a great deal of surface rust - acid leaking from battery - appears to be rust under master cylinder (is that plastic MC correct??) - will need to confirm if the spare has the correct wheel - cowl area look clean - the wiring going to the right of the radiator looks fairly new and kempt - some of the hood liner (carpet?) seems to be frayed and separating from the floor of the hood space - thoughts on all of this? - does this seem complete? parts correct? modifications?

-- trunk liner looks clean (almost new) - probably a replacement (are these avialable)?

-- does the engine look correct? cleaner? valve covers?

-- i note what appears to be bubbling and rust on the heads - thoughts?

-- wiring looks somewhat neat - no birds nests

-- appears to be an ac line (the one that is insulated - looks like newer insulation, will have to see if ac works

-- the surface of the engine compartment almost looks as if it has been coated with what people use as undercoating - is that correct? alternatively, it may be fiberlass repair of earlier rust - hard to say - but the surfaces look bumpy and overlapped - thoughts?

-- struts for trunk lid - correct?

-- radiator (if that is correct - the yellow one) - correct?

-- screen over the air cleaner looks as if has a cut out on the edge or is melted - is this right?

-- exhaust manifold showing a good bit of surface rust - how worrisome?

-- engine block also showing spots or rust...?

-- transmission looks ok - the back piece looks newer than the rest - i know this is critical piece and an expensive one if it fails - what do i need to look for and check out?

-- model tag is pretty blurred - I read "31_" then, inside the square "01613" - on next line, i can only make out a section in the middle that seems to read "WECC_ _"

-- tail lights seem ok and functional

-- filter at bottom of trunk seems clogged, but in good shape

-- do not see any rust on the lower edges of the rear quarters (trunk side) - but do see surface rust here and there all over the underside - thoughts on how bad this looks?

-- exhaust and muffles show surface rust, but don't appear rotten

-- seems to be a leak in what I would call the rear differential - don't know how bad - how much trouble could this spell - just a seal?

-- doesn't seem to be any leaking at rear seal, flywheel, clutch area - agree?

-- suspension correct? or modified?

-- appears to be some rust in the rockers (right one anyway) hard to say if this is surface or something more evil - i would guess the latter - if so, aftermarket or NOS panels available)?

-- seems to be a bit of a leak at the front of the oil pan

-- the floor pan seems weird - it is scaly almost - maybe it has been patched with fiberglass - or just laminated over - are replacement pans out there? costly?

-- the only obviouis area of rot seems to be where the radiator meets the frame/subframe - how bad does this look to all of you?

-- seems to be a leak inside of the left tire - would guess this is brake fluid - agree?

Thanks for your patience in reading through this - i think the car can be had for the mid-20's does that seem right? I am very interested in all of your views and as many answers to the questions as you are willing to give -- and, most importantly, what do i need to do to vet this car and see what of this fatal - and what a fair price would be - thank you!!!!!
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panteradougpanteradougMember
It appears to be a basically stock 72, in nice shape. The grills in the hood have been added.
Goodyear Arriva's were original but why would you want them?
You need to look at the corners of the decklid, doors, and hood for indications of rust.
Look at the last two feet or so of the rocker panels for rust.
You need to remove the rear wheels and look at the rear upright reinforcements.
Don't be surprized if you see rust or cracks.
Cracks would indicate they are rusted from the inside.
Scales on the inside of the floorpans under the carpets or under the undercoating? I'll bet that more Pantera floor pans ruxted out from the inside then the outside.
Drive the car and makesure that it shifts properly in all gears and that none of the gears grind.
Second gear synchros seem to wear out the soonest probably because so many Panteras clutches don't release properly from having the wrong one installed in it.
Expensive to repair? Of course.
It's probably worth around $30,000. There really isn't a guide book for values.
You are going to have to insure it for about $100,000 to drive it and be covered.
parapanteraparapanteraIf you can't fix it with a hammer.....you have an electrical problem.
quote:
Originally posted by edl:
Hi all - have been lurking - ready to pull trigger - could you experts please help me critique this car (within the limitation that these are just photos and obviously there could be more with an in person inspection - which I will do if i go forward) - the pictures may be found at: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/edlebby/album?.dir=/2862r...actn,del%3as,1%3af,0

These are my observations/questions:

-- It is a pre-L car, although it appears that the small chrome part-bumpers have been painted to match the body color (is that factory or someone did that later?) - the car is listed as a "1972 Pantera" - no other model number is given - was there only one model for 1972 - would features in the pix confirm this is indeed a 1972?

-- the car looks like it has definitely been driven given the carbon deposits and grime in and around the exhaust

-- the wheels appear to be original the tires do not - are these the original wheels for a 1972 - or are they from an earlier/later model? Wheels are correct

-- the upper-body looks to be in pretty good shape - there does not appear to be cowl rust - i cannot see any other obvious bubbling low in fenders or doors (but no close ups) - clearly lots of rust elsewhere, we'll come on to that - what do you think, my eye is not that expert - danger signs? waves? bubbles? Try this link for rust issues Rust

-- is the body correct for 72 - correct fender flares, etc.? or has it been modified?Hood vents added

-- can you tell if the glass is original (by the way - how much does originality/numbers matching matter with these cars - from what i have seen...not much...true?)

-- grill and hood vents correct for a 72?

-- square side view mirrors correct for a 72?

-- assume that is a radio antenna coming up through the right fender - correct and right for the car? Nope, thats an add on

-- paint seems to be pretty good - is this an original color for 72? Looks like factory grabber blue to me

-- interior looks pretty used - but not abused - thoughts? I do see the rip in the driver side seat - after market OEM style covers available? what about the mouse fur on top of the rockers - correct?

-- have seen pictures where a lot of the buttons are behind the shifter on the console (does that come later) is the guage cluster, buttons, console, etc. all correct for 72

-- obviously and aftermarket radio - big deal to find an original? repopped?

-- could not see any cracks in the dash and guage area - actually looks pretty clean - agree?

-- shoulder belts seem to be missing (or are these not an option on a 72)? missing

-- in one picture looking through the drivers door there appears to be an aluminum bar around where an emergency brake release handle would be on a foot brake - any thoughts? That is the factory hood release lever

-- are the speakers on either side of the console in the foot wells stock? i am guessing not - i note the broken kick panels on the inside of the foot well (passenger side) both where the speaker is and on the outside where there appears to be a fuse box - how big a deal - replacement parts available? yes, they are available

-- notice some brown spots on both seats right where the lap belt tensioners are - what is this? holes that are showing the stuffing? rusting of a metal part there?

-- is the steering wheel stock? if not, how a big a deal to find an oem style one? Aftermarket, but the stock one sucks anyway, my OEM wheel in on the shelf

-- what is the white button/switch below the speedo in the dash - something after market? Chrome knob is the factory trip meter reset knob

-- weather stripping around doors appears ok - but i note the surface rust around the fasteners - problem?

-- passenger side weather strippin above door latch seems to be birthing some crud - thoughts?

-- carpeting looks ok - agree?

-- inner door panel and trim behind seats looks ok - agree?

-- rear view mirror correct? yep

-- clearly there has been some after market work on the wiring - see a good chunk of wires hanging in the passenger foot-well area - some of that must be the radio - maybe some after market ignition stuff?

-- headliner fabric look ok - clearly some sags and some areas coming off the roof - material still available? supporting rods up there? typical headliner sag, needs fixing

-- courtesy lamp looks ok - no rust on base (that is visible) - plastic not cracked - - agree?

-- the sun visors look a bit overstuffed - stock?

-- windshield and rear window gaskets seem ok from what little you can see - - agree?

-- hood compartment - looks terrible - the radiator has a great deal of surface rust - acid leaking from battery - appears to be rust under master cylinder (is that plastic MC correct??) - will need to confirm if the spare has the correct wheel - cowl area look clean - the wiring going to the right of the radiator looks fairly new and kempt - some of the hood liner (carpet?) seems to be frayed and separating from the floor of the hood space - thoughts on all of this? - does this seem complete? parts correct? modifications? The radiator, brake master\booster are factory, look at replacing them

-- trunk liner looks clean (almost new) - probably a replacement (are these avialable)?

-- does the engine look correct? cleaner? valve covers?

-- i note what appears to be bubbling and rust on the heads - thoughts?

-- wiring looks somewhat neat - no birds nests

-- appears to be an ac line (the one that is insulated - looks like newer insulation, will have to see if ac works

-- the surface of the engine compartment almost looks as if it has been coated with what people use as undercoating - is that correct? alternatively, it may be fiberlass repair of earlier rust - hard to say - but the surfaces look bumpy and overlapped - thoughts? Typical bedliner type coating, no worries

-- struts for trunk lid - correct?

-- radiator (if that is correct - the yellow one) - correct?

-- screen over the air cleaner looks as if has a cut out on the edge or is melted - is this right?

-- exhaust manifold showing a good bit of surface rust - how worrisome?

-- engine block also showing spots or rust...?

-- transmission looks ok - the back piece looks newer than the rest - i know this is critical piece and an expensive one if it fails - what do i need to look for and check out?

-- model tag is pretty blurred - I read "31_" then, inside the square "01613" - on next line, i can only make out a section in the middle that seems to read "WECC_ _"

-- tail lights seem ok and functional

-- filter at bottom of trunk seems clogged, but in good shape

-- do not see any rust on the lower edges of the rear quarters (trunk side) - but do see surface rust here and there all over the underside - thoughts on how bad this looks?

-- exhaust and muffles show surface rust, but don't appear rotten

-- seems to be a leak in what I would call the rear differential - don't know how bad - how much trouble could this spell - just a seal?

-- doesn't seem to be any leaking at rear seal, flywheel, clutch area - agree?

-- suspension correct? or modified? stock

-- appears to be some rust in the rockers (right one anyway) hard to say if this is surface or something more evil - i would guess the latter - if so, aftermarket or NOS panels available)? yes they are

-- seems to be a bit of a leak at the front of the oil pan

-- the floor pan seems weird - it is scaly almost - maybe it has been patched with fiberglass - or just laminated over - are replacement pans out there? costly? OEM undercoating

-- the only obviouis area of rot seems to be where the radiator meets the frame/subframe - how bad does this look to all of you? I would worry about the factory water tubes, plan on replacing. Note overspray in picture 023, body repair?

-- seems to be a leak inside of the left tire - would guess this is brake fluid - agree?

Thanks for your patience in reading through this - i think the car can be had for the mid-20's does that seem right? I am very interested in all of your views and as many answers to the questions as you are willing to give -- and, most importantly, what do i need to do to vet this car and see what of this fatal - and what a fair price would be - thank you!!!!!
If the price is in the mid 20's, thats a deal!
D detom (Guest)
quote:
Originally posted by edl:
thanks to both of you - any and all other input will be greatly appreciated!!!! thanks,

OK, this is just my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt. If you are looking for a totaly original, down to the lug nuts numbers matching Pantera, IF one still exists in the world, expect to pay enormous money for a rusted out hulk that hasn't run in thirty years. Anytime you can buy a Pantera that can move under it's own power in the mid twenties, you should jump and down for joy. From what I have seen lately, average cars are well into the thirties and top of the line show and go cars are hitting seventies. If the car you showed us is in the mid-twenties, buy it and rest assured you will not find a better deal.
jeff6559jeff6559Member
quote:
If the car you showed us is in the mid-twenties, buy it and rest assured you will not find a better deal.


But be prepared to spend money restoring it! Many say it is Cheaper to buy one that is already restored. However, if you enjoy working on cars, restoring it yourself can be very rewarding. But still costly.

And if you do decide to do a restoration, two cheers for rescuing another Pantera! Please do it right.
M mgreene (Guest)
As the heads and block are painted the wrong color Ford Blue (note they do not match the valve covers which appear correct) I would assume the engine may have been out at some time. Also appears the car has been paitned at some time as you can see the blue overspray over the black undercoating underneath the car.
S SEL (Guest)
quote:
Reply


thanks guys - your input is very much appreciated - in looking at the pictures (and bearing in mind your comments about restoration costs) do you see any fatal flaws - anything that constitutes a "major repair" - obviously, i know we are shooting in the dark by just going off of pictures - but I thought i would ask how the specifics of the car strike you (other than as an overall package in the mid (to perhaps high (which is where it is starting - my hope would be to bring him down a few K)) 20s it is a good deal) - for instance, maybe a car at 35 with a recent restoration would be more economical than a car 10K less but with a lot of work!!) - thanks, stephen
panterrorpanterrorMy 74 GTS
If the car drives well, unless it's falling apart due to rust, I don't think you could get hurt priced in the mid 20's. I'd suggest you jump, have it gone through so you know what you have, and if it appears to require more work than you desire, at least you have a Pantera to drive while you look for the car you want to own.

my 2 cents
C comp2Member
quote:
Originally posted by jeff6559:
quote:
maybe a car at 35 with a recent restoration would be more economical



Not "maybe" - definitely. Speaking from experience, only do this deal if you truly want a 2-3 year project in your garage, have buckets of money, and want the satisfaction of having done it yourself!


It's been my experience that a $35 restored Pantera is a Pantera with a re-worked engine and a fresh paint job with the rest of the car still needing a restoration.

Gary
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