Engine build recommendations

Jim, Welcome it appears you have been bitten by the disease like many of us have. Are you intending to build your own engine? I did and the long post by George proved to be truly valuable. Since I built my own engine the only thing I paid for was machine work which is not cheap if done by an experienced shop that specializes in HP engines. Your budget of $9K can be done and actually gain more HP than your goal. I think I had a similar budget and I should be making 500hp. You should seriously consider the oiling mods that George suggests. They sound much more difficult than they really are. I used the Trick Flow heads on my build with good results. Good luck on your build.

I plan to have my local machine shop/race engine building shop assemble the motor. The discount they get on parts makes up for the $500 I will pay them to assemble. They will also give me a 12 month warranty on the engine if they build it.

With a budget of $9,000.00 seems an aluminum block & heads are WELL within your cost allocation. I'd 100% go with 180 headers...I appreciate the fact you are willing to spend appropriately to achieve your desired goals!!!...My Best Regards, Mark

Good luck with your build!

I found that once you get the engine out, be prepared for other costs & projects that you may not have thought about when considering the engine build.

Once that engine is out - that is the time to do a lot of additional work (because you only want to pull that engine once).

So your simple "engine build" can turn into much more.

I don't regret the effort I am putting into my car now, but I must admit I did not realize the additional effort that would be required to do a good job with a simple "engine build / engine swap".

I've got a good buddy who is really pushing me through this build. He is a tremendous help.

I have been meaning to post up pictures in a gallery. I will sometime soon. I can't wait until we get the new engine in.

Rocky

Good luck with the budget. Mine was similar. But once you get started scope creep takes over. i.e. Redo the firewall insulation, new water pipes, paint the engine bay, etc... In theory I now have 632hp, 402ci that graces my garage floor as I try to reign in the scope. ;-)

I'm working on all those things as well. Paint in engine bay and stainless water pipes are a must. I still haven't decided what to do with the firewall.

and budget wise... OK for 500 HP but then you sure need a sound chassis and gearbox, perfect suspension ( polybushings,springs,schocks... ) and likely some semi race tires....otherwise it's a dangerous mix ....our cars are and stay old design, unless you change the complete picture.Sure no airbags and so on...
don't know here the feelings , but i have less trust in my '86 GT5S at 100 mph then 150 mph in my BMW 650.....and i may say all is in perfect condition , so my perhaps nearly 400HP is more then enough !

keep it safe !

quote:

Thoughts on this build? What would you build if given a clean slate?

Ok, these are my thoughts...
Forget about horsepower. It doesn't matter. Torque is king on the street. My goals were 390-420 ft.lbs of torque from 2500-5500 rpm. The horsepower will be whatever it will be. But this is the RPM range where the engine will live 99.9% of the time, and about 90% of that will be under 3500 RPM.

I've never heard of PowerHeads before. Curious if anyone else on the forum has any experience with them, and if they're Chinese ProComp heads being repackaged. ProComps are poor copies of CHI heads, which don't perform particularly well out of the box (from what I've read on the 351C forum).
http://www.powerheads.com/superboss351c.html

You have a good start on your goals, but you're mixing parts and goals, which makes no sense. Clarify your goals...

• Power (remember, torque is king on the street.) This is what you will feel when you take off from a red light or put your foot into it in 2nd or 3rd gear)
  
• Idle quality - Do you want a smooth idle? Or, would you prefer a lumpy pro-street wanna-be Camaro idle that makes more noise than power? I apologize if a little of my bias is coming through. I've seen too many Panteras with overbuilt engines that lose their drivability on the street, and lumpy idle quality with dyno results less than 10% better than my original 100,000 mile engine produced on the dyno. That's a fail in my book.
  
• Drivability - You already stated you "will use the car primarily for street driving and 1-2 track events per year." Good! Will your street driving predominantly be running errands around town, to the store, dropping off and picking up kids? Or will it be only Sunday cruises through nearby country back roads? My engine uses a lightweight knife edged racing crank along with a Centerforce aluminum flywheel, and coupled with a 106 intake centerline and 110-degree LSA, I'm disappointed with slow speed drivability - being able to idle down the street or through a parking lot. Now I need to keep the RPM's up much higher so the car isn't "jerky." My cam grinder actually recommended a 112 or 114 LSA, but I didn't understand how much this might have impacted the slow speed drivability of my car.
  
• Focus on goals rather than parts, but let your engine builder know what parts you have that you wish to re-use, such as your Performer Intake, Holley 700 carb, etc. But don't worry about specifying "Hypereutectic pistons." Let your builder recommend the best combination of parts within your budget. Forged pistons are superior to hypereutectic, and your budget is sufficient for the better parts.
  
• Check out George's recommended camshaft in another thread titled "seeking camshaft recommendations." http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...251029946#9251029946 It's a good read, and nice cam he recommends.
  

I'll send you some additional info via PM if you like. Good luck and keep us posted on your engine builder's recommendations.

Garth,

Thanks for the thoughts. I want an idle that produces power. My intent is not to rattle the windows of every car within 500'.

I'm not sure about the Powerheads either, which is why I posted here to see what others thought. There really are no posts addressing the issue, but they are spoken highly of in the George Reid book "Ford 351 Cleveland Engines".

Stat wise, the powerheads flow just a little less than the CHI 4V, but cost $1000 less. In general I am a number cruncher when it comes to money. "Whats the bang for the buck" is always on my mind. If I get 15 more horsepower for $1000 is that worth it? In my book, probably not. The Hypereutectic pistons are another of those items. Does it make sense to spend double the price on forged pistons for a street car?

The flip side of that coin is that I want to build an engine once and build it right. No sense doing this job again in 6 months because I used cheap parts.

My engine builder really wants to be a part of the camshaft selection, thus my hesitance to have a specific recommendation. I am still unsure if a hydraulic roller is the way to go. Longevity and slightly increased efficiency tipped to scales toward that choice, but it seems like most people are using flat tappet cams. There must be a reason.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Jimlah:
I'm not sure about the Powerheads either, which is why I posted here to see what others thought. There really are no posts addressing the issue, but they are spoken highly of in the George Reid book "Ford 351 Cleveland Engines".

Do you really want heads cast in China? Those are Pro Comp heads.

The George Reid book, in which I am quoted, is geared towards selling you aftermarket parts, and it has the mind-set that all engines are the same. This is the totally wrong mind-set for a 351C with 4V heads. The book was geared towards commercialism, as are many hot-rod books these days. It was a disappoint for me. The Des Hammill book is a better document in terms of honesty and accuracy. I am not quoted in that book, but I had some influence in its content.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimlah:
The Hypereutectic pistons are another of those items. Does it make sense to spend double the price on forged pistons for a street car?

The real question is what's available in terms of round skirt pistons? Buy a set of round skirt pistons, I don't care what they're made out of. Round skirt pistons deal with the problem of cracking the thin cylinder walls. The Ross pistons, available via Summit racing, are the best deal in round skirt pistons known to me. Yes they're still $580 and I know that's a lot of pesos. But you're thinking about spending how much on cylinder heads that you don't need?

I don't own stock in Ross pistons .... honest

quote:

Originally posted by Jimlah:
My engine builder really wants to be a part of the camshaft selection, thus my hesitance to have a specific recommendation.

But does your engine builder understand the needs of a big valve engine? Perhaps this is a moot point if you choose the Power Heads cylinder heads. I don't know your engine builder. He may be a good person, a smart person. But guys with 351C savvy are far and few between. The advice of old guys, who dealt with the 351C back in the 1970s and 1980s, is often dissed by the younger generations. They feel they are so much better informed than we were. I'm sorry Jim, I'm a bit jaded by the haughty attitude of some of the engine mechanics I've run into on the internet. I learned how to hot-rod engines listening to the old guys.

Telephone Jim Kuntz in Arkadelphia Arkansas and talk to him about Clevelands. Google him if you doubt his experience.

The Cleveland isn't like other V8s in that it was a performance engine right off the assembly line. You don't need a wheelbarrow full of SEMA parts to make power. The big valve heads of the 351C 4V are good heads, you don't need anything more than that to assemble a street engine with an output of 450 bhp. But the big valves and ports tuned for 6000 rpm make them unique. The 351C has a few other unique needs as well. As long as somebody understands their way around the engine, its cool. And if I can understand it, anybody can.

My 2 cents.

-G
.

I have a HR cam and it has been great. I think it's a 284? I will have to look for the cam card. I have a video of the cam some where... My engine is what I would call a mid range motor, and to Garths point, It behaves very well on the street and I have scalped quite few cars that surprised both drivers. Mid range is the way to go, I have ice cold A/C, my car runs no hotter than 184 and she is on her best behavior at all times... I am very happy w/this combo....

P.S... and to Georges point, My heads were hurt by a machine shop that did not understand the C heads. Luckily, I was saved by a Jedi Master and my car is "OK" now. By the time we brought my heads back as close as we could, I was easily into CHI head territory. Don't get me wrong, I love my car, it's a great car, I'm very, very happy w/it, but mistakes were made.

I understand where you are all coming from. Given your perspective on that brand of heads, I will avoid them. I have a good set of open chamber heads, but as others have stated, by the time you replace the original valves, install studs, new rocker arms, you end up in aluminum head cost territory anyways. My original plan was to put CHI 4V heads on, but I was lured by the price of the Powerheads. I guess that age old adage that you get what you pay for is proved once again.

What are your thoughts on the Edelbrock intake. Is it worth keeping or will it limit the other parts.

My intent is not to "throw SEMA parts" at the engine build, but my current engine has been sitting with water in 3 cylinders for the 18 months prior to my purchase. Almost nothing from the original engine is salvageable except the heads, rods, and crank.

I have a call into Jim Kuntz to see what he can build within my budget. More to follow. Thanks for help everyone.

I have the Edelbrock heads on my engine. I would have liked CHI's, but didn't have the budget for them. And, despite everyone's arguments at the time for how much better they flowed than the Edelbrocks, I wasn't building a monster motor that needed or would benefit from that extra flow capacity, so no point paying extra for it. As you pointed out, the cost of R&Ring my original crappy open chamber heads was close to the cost of the Edelbrocks.


Some of the quality options to consider are...
Trick Flow, Edelbrock, Blue Thunder, Brodix, AFD, CHI, Ford Motorsport.

quote:

Originally posted by garth66:

quote:

Thoughts on this build? What would you build if given a clean slate?

Ok, these are my thoughts...
Forget about horsepower. It doesn't matter. Torque is king on the street. My goals were 390-420 ft.lbs of torque from 2500-5500 rpm. The horsepower will be whatever it will be. But this is the RPM range where the engine will live 99.9% of the time, and about 90% of that will be under 3500 RPM.

I've never heard of PowerHeads before. Curious if anyone else on the forum has any experience with them, and if they're Chinese ProComp heads being repackaged. ProComps are poor copies of CHI heads, which don't perform particularly well out of the box (from what I've read on the 351C forum).
http://www.powerheads.com/superboss351c.html

You have a good start on your goals, but you're mixing parts and goals, which makes no sense. Clarify your goals...

• Power (remember, torque is king on the street.) This is what you will feel when you take off from a red light or put your foot into it in 2nd or 3rd gear)
  
• Idle quality - Do you want a smooth idle? Or, would you prefer a lumpy pro-street wanna-be Camaro idle that makes more noise than power? I apologize if a little of my bias is coming through. I've seen too many Panteras with overbuilt engines that lose their drivability on the street, and lumpy idle quality with dyno results less than 10% better than my original 100,000 mile engine produced on the dyno. That's a fail in my book.
  
• Drivability - You already stated you "will use the car primarily for street driving and 1-2 track events per year." Good! Will your street driving predominantly be running errands around town, to the store, dropping off and picking up kids? Or will it be only Sunday cruises through nearby country back roads? My engine uses a lightweight knife edged racing crank along with a Centerforce aluminum flywheel, and coupled with a 106 intake centerline and 110-degree LSA, I'm disappointed with slow speed drivability - being able to idle down the street or through a parking lot. Now I need to keep the RPM's up much higher so the car isn't "jerky." My cam grinder actually recommended a 112 or 114 LSA, but I didn't understand how much this might have impacted the slow speed drivability of my car.
  
• Focus on goals rather than parts, but let your engine builder know what parts you have that you wish to re-use, such as your Performer Intake, Holley 700 carb, etc. But don't worry about specifying "Hypereutectic pistons." Let your builder recommend the best combination of parts within your budget. Forged pistons are superior to hypereutectic, and your budget is sufficient for the better parts.
  
• Check out George's recommended camshaft in another thread titled "seeking camshaft recommendations." http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...251029946#9251029946 It's a good read, and nice cam he recommends.
  

I'll send you some additional info via PM if you like. Good luck and keep us posted on your engine builder's recommendations.

Torque is a direct result of displacement, thus the saying "There is No replacement for displacement"...also a BIG valve 4V Cleveland head was designed for HIGH RPMs, if getting off the line ( Torque) is a primary concern vs a 6,500+++ "Screamer", then a 2V head offers much better potential for developing torque...as evidenced by the Superior low velocity flow numbers. Also to consider is the relative lightness of a DeTomaso Pantera, it's NOT like you are trying to move a 4,000 lb car from a dead stop.

I ALWAYS choose a "Screamer" both in bed & on the street/track...Difficult to not be intoxicated by a Cleveland with 180 headers at 7,000rpms!!!!!...Mark