I just recently rebuilt my engine by resleeveing my block, running a standard set of some TRW dish pistons (9 1/2 to 1), reworking the closed chamber heads, a Perfomer Intake, .56 lift (intake and exhaust) with 110 separation reground cam from Scnider here in San Diego and a Holley 750. I took it over to the Dyno to test before installation. After cam brake-in we did several pulls and the best it did was 350 HP @5200 RPM. Is this is good as it gets? Was I expecting to much?
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Were you dyno testing just the new engine or were you testing with the engine installed in the car? Big difference.
if it was installed in the car and you saw 350 at the rear wheels I would say you are doing well.
curious about your resleeving, how many cylinders?
Larry
Also, Pantera exhaust can be pretty restrictive. Not sure if you ran your stock (or stock-ish) headers/tailpipes.
My builder thought there would be ~50 more horsepower in my engine if I went to a less restrictive exhaust….
I run Hall headers, modified collectors and enlarged pipes to the stock mufflers…
I didn’t want to shell out the $ and effort for a new “bundle of snakes” exhaust system…
Rocky
The ZF eats up about 75hp. So if it's rear wheel hp, then you have about 425 at the flywheel.
That's healthy but it's pretty easy to get the engine to 500 if you want to put up with the nature of the engine.
I have always heard the frictional losses in the ZF are a percentage of the input horsepower, not a finite number such as 75 hp.
would a car inputting 70 hp to a ZF be unable to rotate the ZF?
Larry
...In My Opinion, You should have gone with the TRW Flat-Top Pistons. With a 10.5 CR*, proper carb and Manifold you'd be Pushing 'near' 450 HP, at the Flywheel. The Cam and Headers, look correct for it.
* a 10.5-10.6 Compression Ratio would depend on the Cyl. Head Chamber Volume...All other factors being the same. Replacing the Dished Pistons and keeping the CLOSED Chambers, Really Wakes these Engines Up. Just be sure to us the Highest Octane 'Pump' Fuel, you can find. Has Never been a Problem with my cleveland at 63cc Cambers, .588 lift cam (int and Ex) at a 292 Duration on both. Also, had the bowls Polished, Ports Untouched, Huge Valves. When I ran dual quads, the HP was at 520. Torque 490.
Now, I run a Dual Plane 'Air-Gap' with a Holley 750 Vac/Sec (for the Street), Data Input were at the Minimalist Values, processed on a 'Desktop Dyno' Program. 480HP/450Torq. If I were 'Racing', I would go with a 'Double Pumper' Mech-Secs...Or FI. All figures are + or - 5%. FWIW
MJ
@lf-tp2511 posted:I have always heard the frictional losses in the ZF are a percentage of the input horsepower, not a finite number such as 75 hp.
would a car inputting 70 hp to a ZF be unable to rotate the ZF?
Larry
It is probably more accurate to ask Dan Jones that question but it may be him that came to the conclusion.
It's actually a driveline loss. Maybe it is less with CV joints?
If it were the percentage and that is around 15% an 800 hp Pantera wouldn't loose 120hp and a 70hp engine wouldn't loose just 10.5 hp.
The number logically is a minimum + a percentage of something. Not necessarily a percentage of the hp.
More likely the engine torque.
He's probably the one to come up with the number?
The original design engineers who sketched out the general outline would know more precisely since they'd have to match the components. A 1.5 inline 4 cylinder would not have been a good match to the ZF. I've never seen the engineering numbers stated in those regards to the expected operating losses.
Ask Dan. Whatever he says. I haven't heard of him in years though since he had a running in with George over editing his posts?
I found his testing results interesting and informative. Did he ever finish the project? I miss him.
Dan Jones will pop up now and then on the email list, citing results from his various testing.
I am not aware of a single website source for all of his results, though. 🙁
Larry
Dave McLain does most of Dan Jones engine testing and building.
I can't be happier with my 623 HP @ 6900 RPM and 521 TQ @ 5100 RPM. My engine build will probably not suit most but for open road racing its perfect.
Mark
@ehpantera posted:Dave McLain does most of Dan Jones engine testing and building.
I can't be happier with my 623 HP @ 6900 RPM and 521 TQ @ 5100 RPM. My engine build will probably not suit most but for open road racing its perfect.
Mark
How many cubes is that?
384 CUI.
Here are the specs:
> Dan Jones might be willing to make some comments.
I'll do a full write up a little later this week when I can find the
time but some basics are:
A 4.04" bore Probe forged flat top pistons (1/16", 1/16" with 3mm oil
rings)
A 6.125" Scat forged connecting rods
A 3.75" stroke Scat forged crankshaft, internally balanced (Part
Number: 4-351C-3750-6125)
A 4.04" bore x 3.75" stroke = 384.6 cubic inches
A 11:1 compression
A Solid roller cam using Reed ULX lobes:
A 254/258 @ 0.050" (R290ULX/R292ULX), 0.692"/0.701 less lash (0.024"
and 0.026"), 110 LSA
A Competition Cams solid roller lifters
A PBM/Erson 3850 chrome silicon double valve springs with dampers
A Installed at 1.950", 223 lbs seat and 582 lbs open for the intake,
601 lbs for the exhaust
A Titanium retainers
A Rollmaster timing set that's made for the Cleveland block/SVO style
crank combination
A Oiling mods are bushed lifter bores on the right side only with an
0.040" restrictor in the back of the left side galley
A Stock volume and pressure Melling M84A oil pump, Melling oil pump
drive shaft and Aviad Pantera pan
A Clearances are .0025 mains .0022 rods using Federal Mogul mains and
Clevite rod bearings
A Main bearing size is 1/2 under and rods are -1 to get these
clearances with the Scat forged steel crank.
A Romac harmonic damper
A Ford Motorsport A3 high port aluminum Cleveland heads
A Ford Motorsport A331 (modified by Dave)
A 1.73:1 ratio Competition Cams "gold" aluminum roller rockers
A Jomar stud girdle
A Manley guide plates
A SI stainless valves (2.19" intake, 1.71" exhaust)
A Cooling system modifications
A 0.100" diameter block bypass passage plug, petcocks in the back of
the heads to let air out of the rear of the engine with a -4 AN line
from each head that tees together and runs to the suction side of the
water pump with a 0.060" restrictor so that the engine always pulls
coolant and any bubbles out of the back of the heads
A Cometic MLS head gaskets with Fel-Pro gaskets elsewhere
A MSD Pro Billet distributor with bronze gear
A Autolite 3923 spark plugs for street (moderate heat range), AR 3910
for race (about 2 heat ranges colder than the 3923s)
A 30 degrees total timing
A Precision Proformance high port Pantera headers
A 830 annular discharge Holley (from Mark's previous engine)
Mark runs his Pantera in open road races and rarely drives it on the
street.A His ZF has the original gearing so we wanted something that
would pull well from 3500 to 7000+ RPM.A I designed the cam to
maximize the power between 4000 and 7000 RPM, with a torque peak at
around 5000 RPM.A I designed several cams using the Reed ULX lobes and
the one chosen was the smallest (lowest overlap) and had the best power
below 6000 RPM, along with the flattest torque curve.A The Reed ULX
lobes are older designs that are relatively easy on the valve train so
work well in endurance racing and marine applications.A Dave spent
some time modifying the A331 intake.A A 1" thick open spacer was
milled to level the carb and welded to the intake.A On top of that,
several 1" spacers with an HVH 1 inch merge spacer working best.
Dynomation was predicting a little under 600 HP and usually
under-predicts the so I thought we'd hit 600 HP.A Final results were
623.1 HP at 6900 RPM and and 521.6 ft-lbs at 5100 RPM running through
the 4-into-1 Pantera headers with 2 1/2" pipes and mufflers.A The
torque curve is really flat in the operating RPM range.
More details to follow...
Dan Jones
I tested the engina out of the car. The dish pistons were the only standard bore I could find. I re-sleeved all 8 holes because I went through 2 other blocks that were standard bore that would not clean up and would have been to thin after boring. Unfortunately I have learned a few things about Cleveland engines the hard way. It more than likely has less than 9 and 1/2 to one compression so it will run good on this crappy California gas. The engina sounds cool, revs nice and looks fast (all show and no go). I wanted to use aluiminum heads with a matching intake and a differant rotating assembly, but almost everything is not avalible for the Cleveland. I'm going to build a Windsor like I should have in the first place, cheaper,lighter and parts are avalible.
“but almost everything is not avalible for the Cleveland.”
❓❓
unless you are looking for sodium filled exhaust valves, forged titanium crankshafts and triple 2 barrel carburetor intake manifolds, Cleveland parts are readily available if you shop in the right places.
I built a 404 Cleveland stroker recently and had no frustration in obtaining parts.
Larry
OK, the engine was not tested on a chassis dynometer. 350 flywheel HP
(hopefully a more knowledgeable owner will chime in on resleeving of all eight cylinders, but for a standard production, cast iron block I have never heard of more than two or three cylinders being re-sleeved)
with that established, I also would be a bit disappointed with just 350 HP. That isn’t a bad result, but for a fresh engine build it is far from what should be easily obtainable
For a rough comparison, I recently built a 9.2 compression 404 stroker Cleveland with no custom parts other than the bullet cam shaft and a Bob Oliver blueprinted Holley 670 Avenger, and pulled 454 flywheel HP at 5700rpm
applying a ZF frictional loss of 20% from the 350, which is in line with what I’ve been hearing for the last 20 years, you will show only about 280 RWHP.
Larry
It's pretty much stock accept fore the Performer intake,700 CFM Holley, MSD, cam and headers. A stock 11 to 1 1971 Pantera made 330HP. I guess mine at 350 with the lower compression is about right. I have 3,300.00 in machining and parts.
I refuse to pay 3000.00 plus for s set of heads for a dumb 351 C. I should have built a Windsor but, I guess I'm as dumb as a Cleveland.
Funny.
You’re probably not gonna get a lot of sympathy with this crowd about your decision to go to a Windsor.
Good luck with your engine build though.
Most people on here are probably pretty happy with their Clevelands, and are pretty big fans of them. I am.
Hopefully once you get the engine in the car and driving around for a while you realize how much fun the cars are, even with stock horsepower levels.
Rocky
@ehpantera posted:384 CUI.
Here are the specs:
> Dan Jones might be willing to make some comments.
I'll do a full write up a little later this week when I can find the
time but some basics are:
A 4.04" bore Probe forged flat top pistons (1/16", 1/16" with 3mm oil
rings)
A 6.125" Scat forged connecting rods
A 3.75" stroke Scat forged crankshaft, internally balanced (Part
Number: 4-351C-3750-6125)
A 4.04" bore x 3.75" stroke = 384.6 cubic inches
A 11:1 compression
A Solid roller cam using Reed ULX lobes:
A 254/258 @ 0.050" (R290ULX/R292ULX), 0.692"/0.701 less lash (0.024"
and 0.026"), 110 LSA
A Competition Cams solid roller lifters
A PBM/Erson 3850 chrome silicon double valve springs with dampers
A Installed at 1.950", 223 lbs seat and 582 lbs open for the intake,
601 lbs for the exhaust
A Titanium retainers
A Rollmaster timing set that's made for the Cleveland block/SVO style
crank combination
A Oiling mods are bushed lifter bores on the right side only with an
0.040" restrictor in the back of the left side galley
A Stock volume and pressure Melling M84A oil pump, Melling oil pump
drive shaft and Aviad Pantera pan
A Clearances are .0025 mains .0022 rods using Federal Mogul mains and
Clevite rod bearings
A Main bearing size is 1/2 under and rods are -1 to get these
clearances with the Scat forged steel crank.
A Romac harmonic damper
A Ford Motorsport A3 high port aluminum Cleveland heads
A Ford Motorsport A331 (modified by Dave)
A 1.73:1 ratio Competition Cams "gold" aluminum roller rockers
A Jomar stud girdle
A Manley guide plates
A SI stainless valves (2.19" intake, 1.71" exhaust)
A Cooling system modifications
A 0.100" diameter block bypass passage plug, petcocks in the back of
the heads to let air out of the rear of the engine with a -4 AN line
from each head that tees together and runs to the suction side of the
water pump with a 0.060" restrictor so that the engine always pulls
coolant and any bubbles out of the back of the heads
A Cometic MLS head gaskets with Fel-Pro gaskets elsewhere
A MSD Pro Billet distributor with bronze gear
A Autolite 3923 spark plugs for street (moderate heat range), AR 3910
for race (about 2 heat ranges colder than the 3923s)
A 30 degrees total timing
A Precision Proformance high port Pantera headers
A 830 annular discharge Holley (from Mark's previous engine)
Mark runs his Pantera in open road races and rarely drives it on the
street.A His ZF has the original gearing so we wanted something that
would pull well from 3500 to 7000+ RPM.A I designed the cam to
maximize the power between 4000 and 7000 RPM, with a torque peak at
around 5000 RPM.A I designed several cams using the Reed ULX lobes and
the one chosen was the smallest (lowest overlap) and had the best power
below 6000 RPM, along with the flattest torque curve.A The Reed ULX
lobes are older designs that are relatively easy on the valve train so
work well in endurance racing and marine applications.A Dave spent
some time modifying the A331 intake.A A 1" thick open spacer was
milled to level the carb and welded to the intake.A On top of that,
several 1" spacers with an HVH 1 inch merge spacer working best.
Dynomation was predicting a little under 600 HP and usually
under-predicts the so I thought we'd hit 600 HP.A Final results were
623.1 HP at 6900 RPM and and 521.6 ft-lbs at 5100 RPM running through
the 4-into-1 Pantera headers with 2 1/2" pipes and mufflers.A The
torque curve is really flat in the operating RPM range.
More details to follow...
Dan Jones
Just off of the top of your head right? 
Inquiring minds want too know.
