Steve,
Did you install heater shut off valves in the engine compartment? If so then you don't need to drain the whole system. Just close the valves and disconnect hoses from heater side and drain. Good luck, been there, done that.
What are you using as a replacement evap/heater core? I have installed units from three different vendors and had to modify the cutouts in the box as the tube locations did not line up. Don't try to bend the tubes to fit the box or you will be right back where you started.
All the vendor supplied coils I have installed have been built to use the H block style expansion valve as opposed to the angled valve. I do not know if they offer the original style connections. The block style uses different hose connections also.
I would also suggest upgrading the squirrel cage fans to a higher capacity as the stock unit does not move a lot of air. I got mine from Hall years ago, don't know if they still have them or not.
Forest
If by the "foam seal kit" you mean the two 4" square foam rings that go between the backside of the dash and the heater box outlets to seal hot or cold air coming out, I made mine from 1" thick foam. There are lots of places that sell foam sheets; get foam that is rot-resistant or you may be doing this again, when you're even less flexible than you are now! Cut foam more-or-less to size with scissors &/or an electric turkey-trimmer knife. Try not to be too critical of the outrageously poor fit between the heater box outlets & the dash face holes; misalignments of around 1" are common but not easily corrected.
You're right- the '71-'72 dash & console is quite different than the later ones; your '74 has a fresh air valve, a flexible supply hose & valving that's missing on earlier cars. That's all the stuff behind the glove box; early-car owners have nothing behind the glove box but also no fresh air source, except for VERY early cars that DID have a different type of fresh air source. Welcome to Italian Engineering!
The late steel heater core/evaporator box is also very different, as are the two paper defroster flex hoses. Maybe you should document the differences w/photos & send it to me as a Tech Newsletter article, as a public service?
The only problem I had on early dash R & Rs was inserting the two illuminated rocker switches; the switches go in from the front but the bulb & socket clips-on the switch body and will not fit thru the dash hole. So they must be clipped on after the switch is in place. Which even for long arms & fingers, is near-impossible, at least the first time around (maybe the 4th, too).
Interesting note: the washer switch is powered from the wiper switch via a spade-lug & a short wire. There are three choices of lug on the wiper switch to choose from and two will not work correctly. This is not shown on the schematic. Good luck.
You're right- the '71-'72 dash & console is quite different than the later ones; your '74 has a fresh air valve, a flexible supply hose & valving that's missing on earlier cars. That's all the stuff behind the glove box; early-car owners have nothing behind the glove box but also no fresh air source, except for VERY early cars that DID have a different type of fresh air source. Welcome to Italian Engineering!
The late steel heater core/evaporator box is also very different, as are the two paper defroster flex hoses. Maybe you should document the differences w/photos & send it to me as a Tech Newsletter article, as a public service?
The only problem I had on early dash R & Rs was inserting the two illuminated rocker switches; the switches go in from the front but the bulb & socket clips-on the switch body and will not fit thru the dash hole. So they must be clipped on after the switch is in place. Which even for long arms & fingers, is near-impossible, at least the first time around (maybe the 4th, too).
Interesting note: the washer switch is powered from the wiper switch via a spade-lug & a short wire. There are three choices of lug on the wiper switch to choose from and two will not work correctly. This is not shown on the schematic. Good luck.
OK, today was "look! Shiny rock!!" day in the garage.... Was supposed to be getting the AC box out of the car...but got side tracked on the lighter revamp (see other post), and a problem that I mentioned in my very first post on this thread!
The Emergency Flasher Switch....it puked it's function on the first day I parked it in the driveway.
Well, being the ever so "how does it work" kinda guy.....and thinking "well, you can't dork it up much worse than it already is, I took the switch apart! With a couple of small screwdrivers, I was able to eventually get the 6 small tabs finagled (that's a word?) out of the slots they were stuck in....and the thing popped apart! Pretty simple device. One moving part and one stationary...and one piece to hold the two pieces together....oh, and a spring!
The stationary piece has a metal arm with a pin in it. The pin is supposed to ride in the recess of the plastic casting which is on the push button section of this thing. It is one of those maze type deals where when you push the button in, the pin is supposed to catch and hold the button section from popping out. Push the button again, and the pin is guided to another path in the casting and then allows the button to pop out. Push and repeat......in, out, in, way out....
I'd always heard about this little "pathway" in the button section getting mucked up and damaged. Well, mine was not damaged! There appeared to be just enuf play in the arm with the pin....to allow the pin to jump out of the groove it was supposed to stay in!
I put a little bend in the metal arm, to force the pin further in towards the center of the assembly. Gotta be careful as I think this is a cast piece of metal....has that look about it...and it won't take much...but apparently a little is OK!
Check out picture....sorry for the blurry.... fought with my auto focus and this was best I could get of this channel for the pin to ride in.
Steve
The Emergency Flasher Switch....it puked it's function on the first day I parked it in the driveway.
Well, being the ever so "how does it work" kinda guy.....and thinking "well, you can't dork it up much worse than it already is, I took the switch apart! With a couple of small screwdrivers, I was able to eventually get the 6 small tabs finagled (that's a word?) out of the slots they were stuck in....and the thing popped apart! Pretty simple device. One moving part and one stationary...and one piece to hold the two pieces together....oh, and a spring!
The stationary piece has a metal arm with a pin in it. The pin is supposed to ride in the recess of the plastic casting which is on the push button section of this thing. It is one of those maze type deals where when you push the button in, the pin is supposed to catch and hold the button section from popping out. Push the button again, and the pin is guided to another path in the casting and then allows the button to pop out. Push and repeat......in, out, in, way out....
I'd always heard about this little "pathway" in the button section getting mucked up and damaged. Well, mine was not damaged! There appeared to be just enuf play in the arm with the pin....to allow the pin to jump out of the groove it was supposed to stay in!
I put a little bend in the metal arm, to force the pin further in towards the center of the assembly. Gotta be careful as I think this is a cast piece of metal....has that look about it...and it won't take much...but apparently a little is OK!
Check out picture....sorry for the blurry.... fought with my auto focus and this was best I could get of this channel for the pin to ride in.
Steve
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Here is a shot of the metal piece with the pin in it that I bent ever so slightly. You can see the spring also.
Snapped it all back together, put the wires back in place, plugged it in to the dash wiring harness pushed button to release it...and voila!!! Blinking lights!!!!
One good thing out of this (I keep saying this with this car....!!!!) is that the yellow wire spade connection, which is apparently the main power in or out or something important, was found off of the spade connection once I got the dash out! Very loose when I plugged it on! I tried to pinch the curled section of the female clip to be more tight on the male spade...and promptly broke both of the crimps off! No pliers required! Broke them by finger power! Needless to say, it would seem that this connector had some heat on it to cause this metal to crystallize!
I put another connector on the wire....and we're all set!
HERE IS ONE THING I LEARNED while working on this dash about this switch. OK two things...four things....
1) This switch is the one with the resistor on the back! If anyone is looking to buy one....
2) This switch will NOT come out of the dash without pulling all of the wire connections off. Or at least half of them. The wires are about 6 inches long, and terminate in a HUGE red connector. Even IF you could get the front portion of the switch and wires out of the dash, this large red connector is NOT coming out. Forgettabout it!!!
This of course means that you have been able to get your hand up in the dash to get the large plastic retaining nut loose....
To me, there is no physical way possible to put this switch back in the dash, without removing the dash!
To pull the switch, you loosen the nut. The nut is too small to fit over the spade connectors around the perimeter of the back of the switch. So you muscle it out...knocking off all of the wire connections, which is gonna be TOUGH cuz there are 7 wires +1 wire in the middle, that are really really tight connections!
When the switch finally comes thru the hole, the plastic nut and the thin lock washer of sorts, fall down the rear of the dash most likely if you are fortunate, and all of the 8 wires scatter....and retreat into the dash.
That was the easy part!
Now how to get it all back in place?! Put the new or repaired switch into the hole, round up the thin washer and the plastic nut, and work to get them back up inside the dash and onto the rear of the switch. Watch out for cramps in your fingers and forearm, lower back, neck... from being in very odd contortions to get at the rear of the switch.
Now once the switch is tight, you can begin to guess which of 8 wires you are holding in your fingers and which connector you are putting it back on! Seriously! You cannot physically see the wires any longer, nor can you see where you are putting them.
I guess if you have removed your steering column, you might be able to see.....but I doubt it......
So, now is when you go grab the .38 revolver and unload it into the driver's floor pan!!!!!!
Once you calm yourself with 3 or 4 beers and a half a pack of cigarettes, begin procedure to remove the dash pad/top..........32 fasteners later.....ba dump bump!!!!
3) the red lens does NOT come off of this particular push button to allow changing the bulb. When it burns out, replace the switch.
4) the front bezel of this switch does NOT unscrew to allow you to drop the switch out the back and down and out.......ever.
I am not sure where I read about #3 and #4, but certainly it was copied from another car shop manual and used for filler in the Pantera manual.....!!!!! OK, it was perhaps true for the EARLY cars....but I have no idea when this new style switch (with the resistor on the rear) was implemented....nor do I know if there were multiple versions of early switches.....
I do think these later switches ended up in BMW's of some sort...... There is an SAE 72 number on the bezel indicating part was intended/designed/approved for 1972 vehicles of some sort....
SOOOOO while I had the dash out.....I put my newly repaired switch back in the hole, tightened the big plastic nut, verified that the switch was oriented properly and not at an annoying angle, and then plugged all the wires back onto the rear of the switch. Wow, that was easy!!!!
Where was I......oh, yah....evaporator housing...... Started draining the freshly installed antifreeze mixture out of the system so that I can disconnect the heater lines without dumping 2 gallons of coolant all over the carpet! I'm not a hose squeezer......sounds like a good way to damage new hoses.....but I know it can be done with the right tools.
Onwards!
Steve
Snapped it all back together, put the wires back in place, plugged it in to the dash wiring harness pushed button to release it...and voila!!! Blinking lights!!!!
One good thing out of this (I keep saying this with this car....!!!!) is that the yellow wire spade connection, which is apparently the main power in or out or something important, was found off of the spade connection once I got the dash out! Very loose when I plugged it on! I tried to pinch the curled section of the female clip to be more tight on the male spade...and promptly broke both of the crimps off! No pliers required! Broke them by finger power! Needless to say, it would seem that this connector had some heat on it to cause this metal to crystallize!
I put another connector on the wire....and we're all set!
HERE IS ONE THING I LEARNED while working on this dash about this switch. OK two things...four things....
1) This switch is the one with the resistor on the back! If anyone is looking to buy one....
2) This switch will NOT come out of the dash without pulling all of the wire connections off. Or at least half of them. The wires are about 6 inches long, and terminate in a HUGE red connector. Even IF you could get the front portion of the switch and wires out of the dash, this large red connector is NOT coming out. Forgettabout it!!!
This of course means that you have been able to get your hand up in the dash to get the large plastic retaining nut loose....
To me, there is no physical way possible to put this switch back in the dash, without removing the dash!
To pull the switch, you loosen the nut. The nut is too small to fit over the spade connectors around the perimeter of the back of the switch. So you muscle it out...knocking off all of the wire connections, which is gonna be TOUGH cuz there are 7 wires +1 wire in the middle, that are really really tight connections!
When the switch finally comes thru the hole, the plastic nut and the thin lock washer of sorts, fall down the rear of the dash most likely if you are fortunate, and all of the 8 wires scatter....and retreat into the dash.
That was the easy part!
Now how to get it all back in place?! Put the new or repaired switch into the hole, round up the thin washer and the plastic nut, and work to get them back up inside the dash and onto the rear of the switch. Watch out for cramps in your fingers and forearm, lower back, neck... from being in very odd contortions to get at the rear of the switch.
Now once the switch is tight, you can begin to guess which of 8 wires you are holding in your fingers and which connector you are putting it back on! Seriously! You cannot physically see the wires any longer, nor can you see where you are putting them.
I guess if you have removed your steering column, you might be able to see.....but I doubt it......
So, now is when you go grab the .38 revolver and unload it into the driver's floor pan!!!!!!
Once you calm yourself with 3 or 4 beers and a half a pack of cigarettes, begin procedure to remove the dash pad/top..........32 fasteners later.....ba dump bump!!!!
3) the red lens does NOT come off of this particular push button to allow changing the bulb. When it burns out, replace the switch.
4) the front bezel of this switch does NOT unscrew to allow you to drop the switch out the back and down and out.......ever.
I am not sure where I read about #3 and #4, but certainly it was copied from another car shop manual and used for filler in the Pantera manual.....!!!!! OK, it was perhaps true for the EARLY cars....but I have no idea when this new style switch (with the resistor on the rear) was implemented....nor do I know if there were multiple versions of early switches.....
I do think these later switches ended up in BMW's of some sort...... There is an SAE 72 number on the bezel indicating part was intended/designed/approved for 1972 vehicles of some sort....
SOOOOO while I had the dash out.....I put my newly repaired switch back in the hole, tightened the big plastic nut, verified that the switch was oriented properly and not at an annoying angle, and then plugged all the wires back onto the rear of the switch. Wow, that was easy!!!!
Where was I......oh, yah....evaporator housing...... Started draining the freshly installed antifreeze mixture out of the system so that I can disconnect the heater lines without dumping 2 gallons of coolant all over the carpet! I'm not a hose squeezer......sounds like a good way to damage new hoses.....but I know it can be done with the right tools.
Onwards!
Steve
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The 1970's BMW 2002 uses the same switch as the our cars
SAE QC 72 DKS (late) PN 61 31 1 356 193 - 8 pin with resistor.
The model I was looking at ar a local Cars and Coffee had one hanging out as he had the center console out. I found out BMW uses a cylinder plug on the wire harness to connect the switch. I have yet to find a source for the plug though. Check out the picture. It would have made servicing the switch on our cars a lot simpler. You still would have to reach behind the dash to loosen/remove the nut so you can pull the switch out though.
SAE QC 72 DKS (late) PN 61 31 1 356 193 - 8 pin with resistor.
The model I was looking at ar a local Cars and Coffee had one hanging out as he had the center console out. I found out BMW uses a cylinder plug on the wire harness to connect the switch. I have yet to find a source for the plug though. Check out the picture. It would have made servicing the switch on our cars a lot simpler. You still would have to reach behind the dash to loosen/remove the nut so you can pull the switch out though.
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Those e-switches are used by a whole bunch of European cars- I once wrote an article around adapting a visually identical one salvaged from a '72 Alfa. Then one of the vendors called to mention that he had brand new repros on the shelf for less than $50.... Not all the used ones found in wrecking yards have the same wire orientation, either. You'll have to check continuity on each of the 8 lugs to find out where your wires should connect.
And as for disassembling, there are two different switches used as OEM on Panteras, and far from being 'early' or 'late', they seem to have been used by batch. The plastic body swells over the decades from internal spring pressure, which allows the spring-arm-with-pin to pop out of the cam-groove in the inner body. Besides the one shown in Steve's post, there's a second that's held together by a small flat steel frame with only 3 tabs to bend. Possibly easiest fix is removing the switch, squeezing the body and trying the switch to see if the pin is in the groove, then wrapping the body with a small worm-drive hose clamp- not too tight or you seize the switch action.
Not fixing it and jamming the button in with a toothpick redneck-style also works, with a caution: pushing the button in too far disconnects the tail lights & stoplights on your car. Not to worry: there are plenty of police who will point this out to you, along with a fix-it-ticket...
And as for disassembling, there are two different switches used as OEM on Panteras, and far from being 'early' or 'late', they seem to have been used by batch. The plastic body swells over the decades from internal spring pressure, which allows the spring-arm-with-pin to pop out of the cam-groove in the inner body. Besides the one shown in Steve's post, there's a second that's held together by a small flat steel frame with only 3 tabs to bend. Possibly easiest fix is removing the switch, squeezing the body and trying the switch to see if the pin is in the groove, then wrapping the body with a small worm-drive hose clamp- not too tight or you seize the switch action.
Not fixing it and jamming the button in with a toothpick redneck-style also works, with a caution: pushing the button in too far disconnects the tail lights & stoplights on your car. Not to worry: there are plenty of police who will point this out to you, along with a fix-it-ticket...
quote:Not fixing it and jamming the button in with a toothpick redneck-style also works, with a caution: pushing the button in too far disconnects the tail lights & stoplights on your car.
Not true!!!! The only exterior lights that are effected by a faulty hazard warning switch are the turn signals. The tail lights and the brake lights are completely independent of the hazard warning switch.
John
THREE NUTS!!!!
FINALLY! NO shiny nut stuff going on today!
The AC box is out and on the work bench!
Contrary to all doc's on the subject of removing this assembly, there may have been 4 nuts involved in the design of this affair....but there are only THREE nuts holding it in the car!!!
I am SO glad I used a tiny amount of silicon grease on those heater hose fittings on the heater core.....I was able to pop the hoses loose and get them off fairly easily.
Labeled middle control cable and made a diagram of fan switch wiring for reassembly. Covered ends of AC hoses with plastic bags and taped securely. Laid a towel over the lower console flare piece and carefully pulled the unit out!
New parts on order...... time to clean up stuff and wait!
Ciao!
Steve
FINALLY! NO shiny nut stuff going on today!
The AC box is out and on the work bench!
Contrary to all doc's on the subject of removing this assembly, there may have been 4 nuts involved in the design of this affair....but there are only THREE nuts holding it in the car!!!
I am SO glad I used a tiny amount of silicon grease on those heater hose fittings on the heater core.....I was able to pop the hoses loose and get them off fairly easily.
Labeled middle control cable and made a diagram of fan switch wiring for reassembly. Covered ends of AC hoses with plastic bags and taped securely. Laid a towel over the lower console flare piece and carefully pulled the unit out!
New parts on order...... time to clean up stuff and wait!
Ciao!
Steve
Update!
New evap core is finally in place in the tin, and in the car! Working to get external AC connections made!
All I can say about this job is that nothing fits like it did before. Nothing. Hoses that I cut for the heater section now are 1/4-3/8" too short. AC hoses don't fit quite right. I did have to bend the new evap connections just a tad to get clearance of the fresh air section of the late style box! No way around it. It was either bend the tube or no fresh air control!
The one thing that did still fit is the condensate drain hose.
It should be noted that the later style air box, has a one piece bottom section, no seams, with a half to 3/4" of depth to collect water in! One fellow member was relaying stories of his wife's feet getting wet every time he turned a corner...... I am presuming that the early boxes may have a seam that leaks at low levels of water??????
While the new evap core fit in the box physically, the dimensions of the mounting brackets (end brackets) changed slightly more narrow, and the core itself moved to the rear of the box by 1/8-1/4"! This makes putting those pointy little screws back in place a risky task!!! No less than 8 screws needed to be "de-pointed" and made smooth. I also installed washers to take up a little more space! The new core is aluminum, so won't take much to drill into it!!!!!!!
I had to relocate one of the two mounting screws for the core, and make a new hole for the tube that the temp sensor probe fits into. The stock hole didn't align with the new core at all. Had to drill both the case and the core end to accommodate the brass tube insertion to the area where the two rows of fins meet.....anywhere else, you'd be buying a new core once again!!!!
I'll throw up a couple of pictures....of the work.....
First, what got me into all of this mess! The crack...or cracks!!! Both sides of the "Y" look cracked.....
Ciao!
Steve
New evap core is finally in place in the tin, and in the car! Working to get external AC connections made!
All I can say about this job is that nothing fits like it did before. Nothing. Hoses that I cut for the heater section now are 1/4-3/8" too short. AC hoses don't fit quite right. I did have to bend the new evap connections just a tad to get clearance of the fresh air section of the late style box! No way around it. It was either bend the tube or no fresh air control!
The one thing that did still fit is the condensate drain hose.
It should be noted that the later style air box, has a one piece bottom section, no seams, with a half to 3/4" of depth to collect water in! One fellow member was relaying stories of his wife's feet getting wet every time he turned a corner...... I am presuming that the early boxes may have a seam that leaks at low levels of water??????
While the new evap core fit in the box physically, the dimensions of the mounting brackets (end brackets) changed slightly more narrow, and the core itself moved to the rear of the box by 1/8-1/4"! This makes putting those pointy little screws back in place a risky task!!! No less than 8 screws needed to be "de-pointed" and made smooth. I also installed washers to take up a little more space! The new core is aluminum, so won't take much to drill into it!!!!!!!
I had to relocate one of the two mounting screws for the core, and make a new hole for the tube that the temp sensor probe fits into. The stock hole didn't align with the new core at all. Had to drill both the case and the core end to accommodate the brass tube insertion to the area where the two rows of fins meet.....anywhere else, you'd be buying a new core once again!!!!
I'll throw up a couple of pictures....of the work.....
First, what got me into all of this mess! The crack...or cracks!!! Both sides of the "Y" look cracked.....
Ciao!
Steve
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IF I had known that this fresh air inlet/flapper piece on the RH side of the fan assy was supposed to, or actually DID come off.....I perhaps might maybe possibly wouldn't have cracked the fitting. Never know now....
BUT THIS PIECE COMES OFF!!!!! On mine, I found one teeeny tiny Phillips screw that was locking the unit in place. After that, there are three Phillips head screws that you just need to loosen a turn or so. Then the unit rotates CCW about a half inch or so and it drops off! So simple......no one mentions it....because no one has written the procedure to pull this type of evap case out of their car yet!
S
BUT THIS PIECE COMES OFF!!!!! On mine, I found one teeeny tiny Phillips screw that was locking the unit in place. After that, there are three Phillips head screws that you just need to loosen a turn or so. Then the unit rotates CCW about a half inch or so and it drops off! So simple......no one mentions it....because no one has written the procedure to pull this type of evap case out of their car yet!
S
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New evap/heater core unit in box first time....
That coil in the perforated little cage is the resistor that steps down your voltage to the fan motor when you select "LOW" on your fan switch.
New 3 speed replacement fan motor configurations will do away with this part. Not needed.
S
That coil in the perforated little cage is the resistor that steps down your voltage to the fan motor when you select "LOW" on your fan switch.
New 3 speed replacement fan motor configurations will do away with this part. Not needed.
S
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Had to relocate this hole to new spot! This is copper tube end...which the temp probe is inserted into. Tube is about 3-4" long. Carefully used a screwdriver inserted into this hole to "part" the fins to allow this piece and the probe to go in.....
Such trickery!
Such trickery!
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Lots going on this side!
Clearance for large AC hose was a bugger once you moved the tube to clear the fresh air inlet piece. Expansion valve will go back on... Temp probe will go in hole...wiring for switch...wiring for control switch..... Other side (heater) is much less going on...
Enuf for now! Work will progress more today!
Steve
Clearance for large AC hose was a bugger once you moved the tube to clear the fresh air inlet piece. Expansion valve will go back on... Temp probe will go in hole...wiring for switch...wiring for control switch..... Other side (heater) is much less going on...
Enuf for now! Work will progress more today!
Steve
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OK, that hurt!!! Had to take a couple of days off to let my lower back settle down!!!! Finally back in action today......
Filled cooling system up with water....tomorrow will fire car up and pressurize cooling system to check for leaks at shut off valve.
If that goes good, then can work on filling AC system!
IF that all goes good, then can work on putting the danged dash back in!!! ...and the console....and the seats....and the engine cover and all that...!!! WOW! I may find a car under all of that stuff!
Cleaned my fuses today..... was getting some erratic operation of headlamps and other such stuff....some was due to unplugged connector for turn signal switch! (headlamps popped up when I connected battery and turned on ignition key......WAIT! I never touched the headlamp switch!!!! Surprise!)
Once I figured out that the connector was yet undone....resolved that and normal operation continued....except hi beams were very dim...and one low beam was off....then on...? (What?)
Looked at fuses and some were a bit fuzzy. Cleaned everything up with brass brush. Now I get nice bright lights, strong horn...OK, medium horn....meep meep.... and MY HEATER FAN WORKS!!!!
BUT Lo position is not a positive experience each time. You have to futz with the rocker switch to get things working and then it may stay on or not. High position works fine.
OK TWO QUESTIONS related to all of this......
1) Has anyone ever rebuilt a FAN rocker switch? or at least taken it apart in a non-destructive manner? How'd ya do it?
2) Where is the horn relay? I think there is one mentioned.......in the schematics..... 74 car. Reason I ask is that I want to put a set of late model Crown Vic FIAM horns up front. Meep meeep doesn't get it around here in traffic! You need the "WHAT IN THE HELL ARE YOU THINKING!!!!!????" sort of report from your horns! Plus I think only one is working....! I think the horns would need to operate off of a relay....
The air horns in the Mangusta were fantastic (once properly lubed)!!! I thought Panteras got them also...perhaps that was only early cars??
No smoke from anything today......life is good!
Ciao!
Steve
Filled cooling system up with water....tomorrow will fire car up and pressurize cooling system to check for leaks at shut off valve.
If that goes good, then can work on filling AC system!
IF that all goes good, then can work on putting the danged dash back in!!! ...and the console....and the seats....and the engine cover and all that...!!! WOW! I may find a car under all of that stuff!
Cleaned my fuses today..... was getting some erratic operation of headlamps and other such stuff....some was due to unplugged connector for turn signal switch! (headlamps popped up when I connected battery and turned on ignition key......WAIT! I never touched the headlamp switch!!!! Surprise!)
Once I figured out that the connector was yet undone....resolved that and normal operation continued....except hi beams were very dim...and one low beam was off....then on...? (What?)
Looked at fuses and some were a bit fuzzy. Cleaned everything up with brass brush. Now I get nice bright lights, strong horn...OK, medium horn....meep meep.... and MY HEATER FAN WORKS!!!!
BUT Lo position is not a positive experience each time. You have to futz with the rocker switch to get things working and then it may stay on or not. High position works fine.
OK TWO QUESTIONS related to all of this......
1) Has anyone ever rebuilt a FAN rocker switch? or at least taken it apart in a non-destructive manner? How'd ya do it?
2) Where is the horn relay? I think there is one mentioned.......in the schematics..... 74 car. Reason I ask is that I want to put a set of late model Crown Vic FIAM horns up front. Meep meeep doesn't get it around here in traffic! You need the "WHAT IN THE HELL ARE YOU THINKING!!!!!????" sort of report from your horns! Plus I think only one is working....! I think the horns would need to operate off of a relay....
The air horns in the Mangusta were fantastic (once properly lubed)!!! I thought Panteras got them also...perhaps that was only early cars??
No smoke from anything today......life is good!
Ciao!
Steve
2) Where is the horn relay? I think there is one mentioned.......in the schematics..... 74 car. Reason I ask is that I want to put a set of late model Crown Vic FIAM horns up front. Meep meeep doesn't get it around here in traffic! You need the "WHAT IN THE HELL ARE YOU THINKING!!!!!????" sort of report from your horns! Plus I think only one is working....! I think the horns would need to operate off of a relay....
The air horns in the Mangusta were fantastic (once properly lubed)!!! I thought Panteras got them also...perhaps that was only early cars??
No smoke from anything today......life is good!
Ciao!
Steve[/QUOTE]
From what I know all Pantera's have original airhorns, also the later build , GT5,GT5-S and Si .
Simon
The air horns in the Mangusta were fantastic (once properly lubed)!!! I thought Panteras got them also...perhaps that was only early cars??
No smoke from anything today......life is good!
Ciao!
Steve[/QUOTE]
From what I know all Pantera's have original airhorns, also the later build , GT5,GT5-S and Si .
Simon
quote:Where is the horn relay?
Steve,
The horn relay is located behind the door (door #1 !!!) on driver's side kick panel (fender well). Horns are mechanical, not air.
John
OK, good! Relay: yes. Air horns: maybe.....probably not.
Seems to me that after I discovered my barely working air horns in the Goose front wheel well, that other Pantera owners piped up that they also had them....
We determined that almost the exact same air horns are still being sold by local AP stores as well as online!
Not sure which way I will go yet.......too early to make decisions so crucial...
I do need to venture out and see if I can dig up a "thumb nut" for the back of one of my large gauges. Car came to me with only three instead of 4. Something else....but cannot recall what was on the "list" to take to the electronics junk store! Excuse me, recycling store.....!
Thanks!!!
Steve
Seems to me that after I discovered my barely working air horns in the Goose front wheel well, that other Pantera owners piped up that they also had them....
We determined that almost the exact same air horns are still being sold by local AP stores as well as online!
Not sure which way I will go yet.......too early to make decisions so crucial...
I do need to venture out and see if I can dig up a "thumb nut" for the back of one of my large gauges. Car came to me with only three instead of 4. Something else....but cannot recall what was on the "list" to take to the electronics junk store! Excuse me, recycling store.....!
Thanks!!!
Steve
quote:1) Has anyone ever rebuilt a FAN rocker switch? or at least taken it apart in a non-destructive manner? How'd ya do it?
Here you go! John Taphorn can chime in with more details if necessary.
http://www.spacecitypanteras.c...nfo/switch%20repair/
Garth,
That is a great write up!
I can only hope that I have good internals left to work with....but I don't think so.
LOW position gets no "super duper" feels good sensation when you move the switch....sort of vague...if you jiggle and joggle it...then it may come on. HI works just fine.
I'll look thru more boxes of old stuff to see what I can find for old switches! Sounds like possibility could be high that I have some spare bits about!!!
Thanks again!
Steve
That is a great write up!
I can only hope that I have good internals left to work with....but I don't think so.
LOW position gets no "super duper" feels good sensation when you move the switch....sort of vague...if you jiggle and joggle it...then it may come on. HI works just fine.
I'll look thru more boxes of old stuff to see what I can find for old switches! Sounds like possibility could be high that I have some spare bits about!!!
Thanks again!
Steve
Well, Erica lives true to her namesake.......
I fired the car up today, to heat up the system to see if my new heater core and associated connections are sound.
Nope!!! As soon as water started circulating, I could hear water....probably air bubbles then water... but never the less....a mess ensued!
Shut the car off and grabbed the 19mm wrenches to tighten the connector on the heater shut off valve..... No sooner had I given the wrench another couple of flats towards tight, and I see the monkey flyin heater tube pop out of the monkey flyin attaching nut.......!!!!!!!
After I jumped to grab containers to catch the freshly filled engine's water which was now gushing into the cabin.....and dumped them into an antifreeze jug for safe keeping...AND sopped up some out of the carpet and backing...... I removed the nut and found the flared aluminum end of the heater tube cleanly cut off and sitting in the nut......
SO, time to pull the heater box out once again and see if I can get a new flare put on the end of the tube..... Just can't get flare tools at the tube while it is in the car and in the box........
Crap!
Steve
PS Flying monkey thing is reference to Samuel L Jackson in FX's cleaned up version of "Snakes on a Plane"...... Got my own plane of snakes here and her name is Erica!!!!
PSS: Added picture of old and new fittings. Can anyone see a problem? Same mistake is also propagated to the AC side on the expansion valve fitting.....need to contact the manufacturer!
I fired the car up today, to heat up the system to see if my new heater core and associated connections are sound.
Nope!!! As soon as water started circulating, I could hear water....probably air bubbles then water... but never the less....a mess ensued!
Shut the car off and grabbed the 19mm wrenches to tighten the connector on the heater shut off valve..... No sooner had I given the wrench another couple of flats towards tight, and I see the monkey flyin heater tube pop out of the monkey flyin attaching nut.......!!!!!!!
After I jumped to grab containers to catch the freshly filled engine's water which was now gushing into the cabin.....and dumped them into an antifreeze jug for safe keeping...AND sopped up some out of the carpet and backing...... I removed the nut and found the flared aluminum end of the heater tube cleanly cut off and sitting in the nut......
SO, time to pull the heater box out once again and see if I can get a new flare put on the end of the tube..... Just can't get flare tools at the tube while it is in the car and in the box........
Crap!
Steve
PS Flying monkey thing is reference to Samuel L Jackson in FX's cleaned up version of "Snakes on a Plane"...... Got my own plane of snakes here and her name is Erica!!!!
PSS: Added picture of old and new fittings. Can anyone see a problem? Same mistake is also propagated to the AC side on the expansion valve fitting.....need to contact the manufacturer!
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Steve,
It looks to me like they used a compression nut in place of the 45° flare nut. Something to be aware of that I found when I swapped my L model heater control valve for an electronic version is that the fitting is not a standard 3/8" SAE flare with 18TPI threads. It is actually a 3/8" BPPT, British Parallel Pipe Thread, that is 19TPI. It's hard to tell but a thread gauge tells the story. You can't find that flare nut at your local ACE Hardware. I ended up using the original flare nut on the heater core and made a fitting to match on the lathe. Then I relocated the control valve to the engine compartment. Good luck.
Steve
6512
It looks to me like they used a compression nut in place of the 45° flare nut. Something to be aware of that I found when I swapped my L model heater control valve for an electronic version is that the fitting is not a standard 3/8" SAE flare with 18TPI threads. It is actually a 3/8" BPPT, British Parallel Pipe Thread, that is 19TPI. It's hard to tell but a thread gauge tells the story. You can't find that flare nut at your local ACE Hardware. I ended up using the original flare nut on the heater core and made a fitting to match on the lathe. Then I relocated the control valve to the engine compartment. Good luck.
Steve
6512
Steve,
There is a new fan switch for sale on Ebay.
Forest
There is a new fan switch for sale on Ebay.
Forest
Steve,
EDIT: I looked some more into this thread type, and it is a British Standard Pipe Parallel ie straight. (or Tapered if called for.) SO BSPP in what I could find.....probably other acronyms just like for NPT!!!
BUTTTTT, trying to find a tubing nut in BSPP format is proving to be difficult!
I was also trying to find an adapter to go Female BSPP to Male NPTS (straight threads) but no go! Other way around.....no prob. This way supplier could put NPTS nuts on the heater core and use regular shut off valves from US. OR use the adapter and fit to the original heater valve! Which is what I would love to do.
Just like the Italians to use a British water valve on an Italian car sold in the US......(and elsewhere!)
That explains why the danged nut didn't thread onto the valve just quite as nice as it should have for being new parts!!!! I thought I had some aluminum in the threads from previous fitting....and worked on those threads for quite a while with a thread file....cleaning them up!
Hmmmm, don't have 19TPI on my thread gauge either.
Just like Rosanne Rosannadana used to say.....
"It's Always something!"
Thanks for the great info!!!!!
Steve
EDIT: I looked some more into this thread type, and it is a British Standard Pipe Parallel ie straight. (or Tapered if called for.) SO BSPP in what I could find.....probably other acronyms just like for NPT!!!
BUTTTTT, trying to find a tubing nut in BSPP format is proving to be difficult!
I was also trying to find an adapter to go Female BSPP to Male NPTS (straight threads) but no go! Other way around.....no prob. This way supplier could put NPTS nuts on the heater core and use regular shut off valves from US. OR use the adapter and fit to the original heater valve! Which is what I would love to do.
Just like the Italians to use a British water valve on an Italian car sold in the US......(and elsewhere!)
That explains why the danged nut didn't thread onto the valve just quite as nice as it should have for being new parts!!!! I thought I had some aluminum in the threads from previous fitting....and worked on those threads for quite a while with a thread file....cleaning them up!
Hmmmm, don't have 19TPI on my thread gauge either.
Just like Rosanne Rosannadana used to say.....
"It's Always something!"
Thanks for the great info!!!!!
Steve
...Here's the solution that worked for Me, when I Installed a New P.S. pump on a GMC Truck, and the Hose Fitting was Different from the (Removable) Adaptor, on the Original (Old) Pump.
I turned the Two Pieces with the 'Ends' I need to work, on the Lathe to Mate with a .002" Press fit, degreased with Acetone, smeared a thin film of Locktite RED on the opposing surfaces and pressed the Two Parts together on a Hydraulic press. BOOM! An Adaptor. It works, No Leaks!
Be sure to cap the Flare so as to Not Damage it, in the Press.
If this procedure can hold the pressure of a P.S. Pump, it can certainly hold the Pressure of a AC Pump.
Steve, If You do not have access to a Lathe, send Me the Parts with a Clear Blueprint of what You need, and I will Machine, and assemble them for You. At No cost to You, for the 'Cause'.
I turned the Two Pieces with the 'Ends' I need to work, on the Lathe to Mate with a .002" Press fit, degreased with Acetone, smeared a thin film of Locktite RED on the opposing surfaces and pressed the Two Parts together on a Hydraulic press. BOOM! An Adaptor. It works, No Leaks!
Be sure to cap the Flare so as to Not Damage it, in the Press.
If this procedure can hold the pressure of a P.S. Pump, it can certainly hold the Pressure of a AC Pump.
Steve, If You do not have access to a Lathe, send Me the Parts with a Clear Blueprint of what You need, and I will Machine, and assemble them for You. At No cost to You, for the 'Cause'.
Marlin,
This is EXACTLY what I am going to need to do.
The evap core will get an NPS flare nut on it...
Then I found a BPSS female to NPT male AND
a NPT female to NPS flare male. Whew need to cool off....all that sex talk!!!
At the same time need to look more closely at the connection on the AC side. I think that ALSO is likely a damned compression fitting also, and after a few hundred heating and cooling cycles could simply cut right thru that connection as well. If it is a proper nut I will be pleasantly surprised!
Thanks for the offer! I do have a 6" South Bend but it is in bits in my new shop waiting for a bench, power, and reassembly!
In the mean time a have a small lathe that will do the trick for doing exactly what you suggest, although I may solder it.....
Did the same on a PS fitting on a 67 390 Fairlane. Hoses were unobtanium and priced to the moon. Did find an old NOS hose that was mismarked and had the wrong something or other to work for me (probably a 66 hose) but did take two adapters and made one!
I was hoping that a BPSS flare fitting could be located.....but found absolutely nothing on the internet!!!! That would have been too easy.
Would have fed the info back to the vender!
If the vendor does nothing but put a proper flare nut (NPS) on this fitting, we could still properly substitute new US made valves that have the same sort of design.....threaded flare connection and hose..... Whether the rotational control would be retained....different issue.
At the worst, ya cross thread the hell out of the nut and it would hold.....ugh!
Would have fed the info back to the vender!
We'll see how this job works....may not want to get into the adapter business........! Not $$ heavy!
Bad news is that I can't do this job in the car.....
Right now I'm just resting my back after putzing it up real good just putting the box back in the car.......need to work back up to bustin' the evap box back out of the car!!! May be tomorrow.......then take the whole thing apart again.
....find a removable steering wheel fitting could help too!
Stupid $2 part derails a $1000+ job.....
My "lathe" for this job! It's not the size, it's how ya use it!!!
Ciao!
Steve
This is EXACTLY what I am going to need to do.
The evap core will get an NPS flare nut on it...
Then I found a BPSS female to NPT male AND
a NPT female to NPS flare male. Whew need to cool off....all that sex talk!!!
At the same time need to look more closely at the connection on the AC side. I think that ALSO is likely a damned compression fitting also, and after a few hundred heating and cooling cycles could simply cut right thru that connection as well. If it is a proper nut I will be pleasantly surprised!
Thanks for the offer! I do have a 6" South Bend but it is in bits in my new shop waiting for a bench, power, and reassembly!
In the mean time a have a small lathe that will do the trick for doing exactly what you suggest, although I may solder it.....
Did the same on a PS fitting on a 67 390 Fairlane. Hoses were unobtanium and priced to the moon. Did find an old NOS hose that was mismarked and had the wrong something or other to work for me (probably a 66 hose) but did take two adapters and made one!
I was hoping that a BPSS flare fitting could be located.....but found absolutely nothing on the internet!!!! That would have been too easy.
Would have fed the info back to the vender!
If the vendor does nothing but put a proper flare nut (NPS) on this fitting, we could still properly substitute new US made valves that have the same sort of design.....threaded flare connection and hose..... Whether the rotational control would be retained....different issue.
At the worst, ya cross thread the hell out of the nut and it would hold.....ugh!
Would have fed the info back to the vender!
We'll see how this job works....may not want to get into the adapter business........! Not $$ heavy!
Bad news is that I can't do this job in the car.....
Right now I'm just resting my back after putzing it up real good just putting the box back in the car.......need to work back up to bustin' the evap box back out of the car!!! May be tomorrow.......then take the whole thing apart again.
....find a removable steering wheel fitting could help too!
Stupid $2 part derails a $1000+ job.....
My "lathe" for this job! It's not the size, it's how ya use it!!!
Ciao!
Steve
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Unfortunately, this is on a NEW core from vendor....of aluminum.......
I'll try and get the adapter as short as I can get it.....and then shorten the heater tube by some unknown amount....and get the valve back in it's approximate stock location! Lower by a 1/4" wouldn't hurt....easier to get hose on then!
I am of the nature to have my copper core fixed and reinstall....except that while moving it around in the garage the other day, I think I cracked one of the heater tubes! (It already had the AC side broken......!) Can't win here...!
Steve
I'll try and get the adapter as short as I can get it.....and then shorten the heater tube by some unknown amount....and get the valve back in it's approximate stock location! Lower by a 1/4" wouldn't hurt....easier to get hose on then!
I am of the nature to have my copper core fixed and reinstall....except that while moving it around in the garage the other day, I think I cracked one of the heater tubes! (It already had the AC side broken......!) Can't win here...!
Steve
Steve,
If the old core is destined for recycle why not reuse the original flare nuts? Have you contacted any British plumbing suppliers? Sometimes it takes asking for something to find it.
Steve
If the old core is destined for recycle why not reuse the original flare nuts? Have you contacted any British plumbing suppliers? Sometimes it takes asking for something to find it.
Steve
Or, buy an entire used assembly that is on Ebay right now and use what you need and save or recycle the rest.
Steve
Steve
quote:Originally posted by Mangusta:
....find a removable steering wheel fitting could help too!
Ciao!
Steve
Wilkinson has a great one. Here it is on my car.
It makes working under the dash so much easier.
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At this point, reusing the original may be an out to a solution as well.
We'll see once I get it all back on the bench and laid out. Will depend on how much of the new/old tubing can be stretched and still keep the valve close to the original location so that the hose isn't up against the blower and the cable at some obtuse angle to activate the thing!
Thanks all!!!
Steve
We'll see once I get it all back on the bench and laid out. Will depend on how much of the new/old tubing can be stretched and still keep the valve close to the original location so that the hose isn't up against the blower and the cable at some obtuse angle to activate the thing!
Thanks all!!!
Steve
quote:Did the same on a PS fitting on a 67 390 Fairlane. Hoses were unobtanium and priced to the moon. Did find an old NOS hose that was mismarked and had the wrong something or other to work for me (probably a 66 hose) but did take two adapters and made one!
I was hoping that a BPSS flare fitting could be located.....but found absolutely nothing on the internet!!!! That would have been too easy.
Would have fed the info back to the vender!
An excellent local source for AC fittings and/or custom hoses with the fittings you need is Sease's Auto Services & Repair on N. 4th Street in San Jose. I had them fab up some new hoses for my AC system.
Garth,
Yes, intimately familiar with the boyz down there! They helped me with the Goose hoses, and I've visited there a couple of times in the past weeks......but this job is on me I believe......
Erica is on "time out" at the moment. Gonna go move a Cougar down south on the new trailer.....
Thanks!
Steve
Yes, intimately familiar with the boyz down there! They helped me with the Goose hoses, and I've visited there a couple of times in the past weeks......but this job is on me I believe......
Erica is on "time out" at the moment. Gonna go move a Cougar down south on the new trailer.....
Thanks!
Steve
OK, Erica has been on "time out" for being such a Beyonce..... I need a sanity check here cuz I'm going a tad crazy....can't afford to lose more hair!
Whut I done so far....
Repaired Evap/Heater core is back in car, holding 28+ inches of vacuum for several days while I have been trying to get heater core to work.....
Today determined that core has no obstructions, valve is adjusted for full flow capacity (about a 3/8" passage), and my home brew heater line filter is not plugged up already.......
I need a sanity check here......
Heater core is connected as follows....(similar to other post two up the list)....
The open line on the core is connected directly to the back to the pump which should be "sucking" water from the core..... (Left hand tube)
Valved side of core goes back via RH tube and hits my filter and is then connected to the block outlet. This is the pressure side...
Water pump "pumps water" into the block, from radiator, which is heated, then is pumped out the block fitting and forward to the heater valve...into the core...and back out...returning to the water pump. It should be as simple as that.
Pressure side of core is valved connection, suction side is the open connection.
But for me....no love. The two metal hoses up at where they come out of the tunnel are barely warm.....engine is warm enuf to turn both fans on......
I had flushed these lines several times, although had lots of crap in them......seemed clean.
SO, is this something unique to our cars, that the core needs to be bled????? Air bubble issues?????
I would think that with a suction on one side, and pressure on the other, that water would displace air and these lines should be cooking in no time......
What stupid simple thing am I missing?????
Cheers!
Steve
Whut I done so far....
Repaired Evap/Heater core is back in car, holding 28+ inches of vacuum for several days while I have been trying to get heater core to work.....
Today determined that core has no obstructions, valve is adjusted for full flow capacity (about a 3/8" passage), and my home brew heater line filter is not plugged up already.......
I need a sanity check here......
Heater core is connected as follows....(similar to other post two up the list)....
The open line on the core is connected directly to the back to the pump which should be "sucking" water from the core..... (Left hand tube)
Valved side of core goes back via RH tube and hits my filter and is then connected to the block outlet. This is the pressure side...
Water pump "pumps water" into the block, from radiator, which is heated, then is pumped out the block fitting and forward to the heater valve...into the core...and back out...returning to the water pump. It should be as simple as that.
Pressure side of core is valved connection, suction side is the open connection.
But for me....no love. The two metal hoses up at where they come out of the tunnel are barely warm.....engine is warm enuf to turn both fans on......
I had flushed these lines several times, although had lots of crap in them......seemed clean.
SO, is this something unique to our cars, that the core needs to be bled????? Air bubble issues?????
I would think that with a suction on one side, and pressure on the other, that water would displace air and these lines should be cooking in no time......
What stupid simple thing am I missing?????
Cheers!
Steve
Steve I don't know if this is of any help but I got irritated with the fluctuating temperature outlet of my heater when I had it on during cold summer nights etc. Suddenly it was 40°C in the cockpit and 2 minutes later 18°C all depending on engine rpm and available flow for the heater core.
So I installed a dedicated heater pump like we know from all modern cars and it is switched via a micro switch on the cable/valve assembly so when the temp selector on the dash is all the way left the power to the pump is cut and the pump stops. It works quite nice so now we are able to control the temp in the cockpit much better.
BTW the temporary cable tie is now replaced with a proper clamp.
So I installed a dedicated heater pump like we know from all modern cars and it is switched via a micro switch on the cable/valve assembly so when the temp selector on the dash is all the way left the power to the pump is cut and the pump stops. It works quite nice so now we are able to control the temp in the cockpit much better.
BTW the temporary cable tie is now replaced with a proper clamp.
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I think that's an excellent solution. Most of us don't drive the car in the cold though and many Pantera owners are in Southern California where you really don't need a heater.
goodroc,
Very clever!
Can you give us some details of the electric pump you used?
Thanks!
Very clever!
Can you give us some details of the electric pump you used?
Thanks!
David, yes certainly. That pump sit on many cars. The one I used is a Bosch 0392020073 and it is used in Audi, VW, Ford, Porsche, Mercedes etc. The studs were not the same size as my hoses but I used some step down (or step up) straight connectors. But it all depends obviously. I wired it via a relay and took the ground for the relay coil and wired it via a small/micro switch that I attached were the cable from the lever connects to the water valve. It was a bit tricky to get that to sit correctly so it cuts out exactly when the valve is also shut. But I managed eventually. Unfortunately I didn't take any photos of that.
Btw I don't think it is a problem to wire it directly without a relay, I am not sure how much current it draws but not much I think.