I was just wondering how many GT5 cars were manufactured?
Dennis
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Someone must know!
George were are you....
George were are you....
Not sure of the total production but as you mare in Australia it may be of interest that only 9 RHD cars were made.
Steve
Steve
Incidentally, another UK RHD GT5S has just been sold to Australia, that makes three GT5S cars to go there in the last two years.
Steve
Steve
Dennis,
I think if you go by the sequetial VIN numbers up to the start of the GT5S cars it could be as many as 300. However, not all the cars in that run were GT5's, similarly theer were a few GT5's produced after the start of the GT5S cars production e.g. Peter Havlik's '89 GT5. In fact he probably has a better estimate than anyone of the GT5 numbers produced as he has an extensive library of information on the post '78 cars.
Julian
I think if you go by the sequetial VIN numbers up to the start of the GT5S cars it could be as many as 300. However, not all the cars in that run were GT5's, similarly theer were a few GT5's produced after the start of the GT5S cars production e.g. Peter Havlik's '89 GT5. In fact he probably has a better estimate than anyone of the GT5 numbers produced as he has an extensive library of information on the post '78 cars.
Julian
Thanks for that guys
Dennis
Dennis
There are quite a few listed on the Worldwide de Tomaso registry at http://www.qv500.com/detomasoregistry.php
Mike
Mike
Answer - nobody knows.
Not even DeTomaso.
I tried to ascertain the number of GT5S cars, and the number the factory gave me is simply not possible.
The only way we will ever know is if someone can complete a registry, such as Peter Havlic's, which is the most complete late-model registry I am aware of.
Not even DeTomaso.
I tried to ascertain the number of GT5S cars, and the number the factory gave me is simply not possible.
The only way we will ever know is if someone can complete a registry, such as Peter Havlic's, which is the most complete late-model registry I am aware of.
The GT5 debuted at the Turin motor show in 1980. The first factory noted GT5 is, according to Matt Stone and Rob de la Rive Box, #9250. Matt and Rob state, in their Book “Pantera Buyer’s Guide”, that “Prior GT5s probably recorded as modified GTS units from about late 1980.” Franz Krump, who posts here as Si Targa, has written that the Turin motor show car was #9250.
The earliest Pantera GT5 I have on record is #9107 belonging to Wally Baldyga from West Suffield, Connecticut. So far, I have not been able to determine the chassis number of the first GT5 built (for all I know, it could be Wally’s), although I think it is highly unlikely that the number was any lower than #9100. Even though there is a lot of confusion between model year, build year and year of first registration (particularly in Europe), I have been able to identify three allegedly 1979 GTS Panteras with numbers greater than 9100, so I believe it to be a safe assumption that no GT5 will have a lower chassis number than that.
The last GT5 in the official production run is #9374, built in 1985, and last known to belong to a customer of Cory Gehling at Collector’s Choice. There may have been more GT5 Panteras built as special orders after that, but mine is the only one I am aware of (#9517, built in 1988 and sold as a 1989 model year).
On the assumption that the chasses were numbered sequentially, if we subtract the first car’s chassis number from the last, we can get a reasonable idea of the maximum number of cars that could have been produced:
9374 – 9100 = 274 cars
Therefore, if you add mine, there is a maximum of 275 cars that could have been produced. Then we have to subtract the number of GTS and L Panteras built during that same time, because the three models were produced concurrently. I have found 23 narrow bodies, although I fully expect many more were made during this period. Therefore, my best calculation of the maximum possible number of GT5 Panteras is as follows:
275 – 23 = 252
It is reasonable to assume the actual number is much lower, but at least we can say with some confidence that no more than 252 cars could have been made. This number can be expected to go down as I find more narrow body Panteras with chassis numbers between 9100 and 9374.
I invite any corrections of, comments on, or additional information pertaining to, my reasoning as set out above.
- Peter
The earliest Pantera GT5 I have on record is #9107 belonging to Wally Baldyga from West Suffield, Connecticut. So far, I have not been able to determine the chassis number of the first GT5 built (for all I know, it could be Wally’s), although I think it is highly unlikely that the number was any lower than #9100. Even though there is a lot of confusion between model year, build year and year of first registration (particularly in Europe), I have been able to identify three allegedly 1979 GTS Panteras with numbers greater than 9100, so I believe it to be a safe assumption that no GT5 will have a lower chassis number than that.
The last GT5 in the official production run is #9374, built in 1985, and last known to belong to a customer of Cory Gehling at Collector’s Choice. There may have been more GT5 Panteras built as special orders after that, but mine is the only one I am aware of (#9517, built in 1988 and sold as a 1989 model year).
On the assumption that the chasses were numbered sequentially, if we subtract the first car’s chassis number from the last, we can get a reasonable idea of the maximum number of cars that could have been produced:
9374 – 9100 = 274 cars
Therefore, if you add mine, there is a maximum of 275 cars that could have been produced. Then we have to subtract the number of GTS and L Panteras built during that same time, because the three models were produced concurrently. I have found 23 narrow bodies, although I fully expect many more were made during this period. Therefore, my best calculation of the maximum possible number of GT5 Panteras is as follows:
275 – 23 = 252
It is reasonable to assume the actual number is much lower, but at least we can say with some confidence that no more than 252 cars could have been made. This number can be expected to go down as I find more narrow body Panteras with chassis numbers between 9100 and 9374.
I invite any corrections of, comments on, or additional information pertaining to, my reasoning as set out above.
- Peter
Peter,
I don't believe you will find any "L" model Panteras (i.e. Ford spec Panteras) built after Ford importation ceased. I believe we'll find all the narrow body cars built after approximately chassis 7400 are GTS models.
Chassis 9001 through 90XX (9099 at the very most) were the Maggiora coaches, built circa 1976 - 1977. I believe your assumption that the GT5 models all have chassis numbers greater than 9101 is correct. Do you know if 9107 was a factory retro-fit job, like Dennis'.
cowboy from hell
I don't believe you will find any "L" model Panteras (i.e. Ford spec Panteras) built after Ford importation ceased. I believe we'll find all the narrow body cars built after approximately chassis 7400 are GTS models.
Chassis 9001 through 90XX (9099 at the very most) were the Maggiora coaches, built circa 1976 - 1977. I believe your assumption that the GT5 models all have chassis numbers greater than 9101 is correct. Do you know if 9107 was a factory retro-fit job, like Dennis'.
cowboy from hell
George:
Personally, I agree with you that all the late model narrow body Panteras are probably GTS models, or at least I haven't come across any that are not. However, Wallace Wyss writes on page 231 of "DeTomaso; The Man and His Machines" as follows:
"The GT5 wasn't marketed as a replacement for the previous Panteras. European market brochures published by DeTomaso after the U.S. specification production had ended, show conventional '71-'72 (metal bumperette model) Panteras still being offered. The GT5 was merely a new top of the line model, added to a line which still included the Pantera "L" and the GTS."
I have to admit to being a bit confused about the Vignale - Maggiora - Embo carrozzeria history. I thought the Embo cars started being built in 1978? I think you wrote that on a previous post here on the PIBB on October 25, 2005.
As for #9107, I know very little about it's history prior to Wally having acquired it. I spoke with him at some length on March 18th, but he was not able to provide me with any information about it's origins.
Personally, I agree with you that all the late model narrow body Panteras are probably GTS models, or at least I haven't come across any that are not. However, Wallace Wyss writes on page 231 of "DeTomaso; The Man and His Machines" as follows:
"The GT5 wasn't marketed as a replacement for the previous Panteras. European market brochures published by DeTomaso after the U.S. specification production had ended, show conventional '71-'72 (metal bumperette model) Panteras still being offered. The GT5 was merely a new top of the line model, added to a line which still included the Pantera "L" and the GTS."
I have to admit to being a bit confused about the Vignale - Maggiora - Embo carrozzeria history. I thought the Embo cars started being built in 1978? I think you wrote that on a previous post here on the PIBB on October 25, 2005.
As for #9107, I know very little about it's history prior to Wally having acquired it. I spoke with him at some length on March 18th, but he was not able to provide me with any information about it's origins.
Wally Wyss has been known to be inaccurate on occasion. 
Vignale: 1001 - 75XX (possibly 77XX?), circa 1970 - 1976. Vignale stopped producing coaches in 1974, but there are rumored to have been up to 200 unfinished coaches left over after production for Ford ceased, allowing DeTomaso to continue assembling Panteras for about 2 years, mid '74 through mid '76. That would have been 2 Panteras per week, which sounds high to me. We know 7380 made it to the US, and there's a 7505 on Ben's site. The highest numbered Vignale coach hasn't surfaced, yet.
Maggiora: 9001 - 90xx(?), at leat 9074, circa 1976 - 1977
Embo: 9101 - 9641 (I believe that's the number of the last Si?), circa 1978 - 1993
Vignale: 1001 - 75XX (possibly 77XX?), circa 1970 - 1976. Vignale stopped producing coaches in 1974, but there are rumored to have been up to 200 unfinished coaches left over after production for Ford ceased, allowing DeTomaso to continue assembling Panteras for about 2 years, mid '74 through mid '76. That would have been 2 Panteras per week, which sounds high to me. We know 7380 made it to the US, and there's a 7505 on Ben's site. The highest numbered Vignale coach hasn't surfaced, yet.
Maggiora: 9001 - 90xx(?), at leat 9074, circa 1976 - 1977
Embo: 9101 - 9641 (I believe that's the number of the last Si?), circa 1978 - 1993
#9641 is the last 90 Si. It should be noted that there is a gap in the Embo chassis numbering between #9562, the last GT5-S, and #9601, the first 90 Si prototype.
Ooops... maybe I shouldn't have mentioned that. Now we'll have DetomasoSJJ1 writing in to claim that #s 9563 to 9600 were all Guanci SJJ1 GTs.
Ooops... maybe I shouldn't have mentioned that. Now we'll have DetomasoSJJ1 writing in to claim that #s 9563 to 9600 were all Guanci SJJ1 GTs.
Theres a big jump between the Vignale coaches & the Maggiora coaches, 75xx to 9000.
There's a small jump in numbering between Maggiora coaches & Embo coaches too.
There is also supposed to be one singular GTS somewhere in Europe with a 8000 series number, coachbuilder unknown.
There's a small jump in numbering between Maggiora coaches & Embo coaches too.
There is also supposed to be one singular GTS somewhere in Europe with a 8000 series number, coachbuilder unknown.
I know this thread is about GT5 Panteras, but I thought readers may be interested in GT5-S production numbers for comparison purposes.
The first GT5-S is known to be #9375, a 1985 belonging to Charlie McCall of Vitoria, Spain. The last GT5-S is #9562, a 1990 belonging to Mr. Rauch of Germany.
9562 - 9375 = 187
I am aware of three GTS Panteras and one GT5 having been built during this interval so;
187 - 4 = 183
The number is likely to go down as I find other GTS and GT5 Panteras with chassis numbers within the GT5-S range but, for the time being, we can safely assume that 183 is the maximum total number of GT5-S Panteras that could have been produced.
The GT5-S is a very rare car.
The first GT5-S is known to be #9375, a 1985 belonging to Charlie McCall of Vitoria, Spain. The last GT5-S is #9562, a 1990 belonging to Mr. Rauch of Germany.
9562 - 9375 = 187
I am aware of three GTS Panteras and one GT5 having been built during this interval so;
187 - 4 = 183
The number is likely to go down as I find other GTS and GT5 Panteras with chassis numbers within the GT5-S range but, for the time being, we can safely assume that 183 is the maximum total number of GT5-S Panteras that could have been produced.
The GT5-S is a very rare car.
quote:Originally posted by Peter H:
I know this thread is about GT5 Panteras, but I thought readers may be interested in GT5-S production numbers for comparison purposes.
The first GT5-S is known to be #9375, a 1985 belonging to Charlie McCall of Vitoria, Spain. The last GT5-S is #9562, a 1990 belonging to Mr. Rauch of Germany.
9562 - 9375 = 187
I am aware of three GTS Panteras and one GT5 having been built during this interval so;
187 - 4 = 183
The number is likely to go down as I find other GTS and GT5 Panteras with chassis numbers within the GT5-S range but, for the time being, we can safely assume that 183 is the maximum total number of GT5-S Panteras that could have been produced.
The GT5-S is a very rare car.
#9562 is in Switzerland now. New owner is Mr. Marcel Schaub.
quote:Originally posted by Peter H:
...There may have been more GT5 Panteras built as special orders after that, but mine is the only one I am aware of (#9517, built in 1988 and sold as a 1989 model year)...
As per the Bill Van Ess registry, there were at least two more GT5's assembled with chassis numbers higher than 9375. They are 9405 and 9483.
cowboy from hell
quote:for the time being, we can safely assume that 183 is the maximum total number of GT5-S Panteras that could have been produced.
Where do the Amerisport GT5-S cars fit in?
I included Amerisports in my calculation.
Thanks, Peter.
I wasn't sure if the Amerisports were included since you used the last four digits of the deTomaso serial number to come up with your figure and Amerisport GT5-S cars are registered and titled using their standard USA issued (long) VIN. Sounds like Amerisports were also able to retain their deTomaso serial number?
I wasn't sure if the Amerisports were included since you used the last four digits of the deTomaso serial number to come up with your figure and Amerisport GT5-S cars are registered and titled using their standard USA issued (long) VIN. Sounds like Amerisports were also able to retain their deTomaso serial number?
Yes, that's right. Kirk Evans made sure that the Amerisport Panteras retained their DeTomaso VIN plate, and that's how I have been tracking them.
quote:Originally posted by Cowboy from Hell:quote:Originally posted by Peter H:
...There may have been more GT5 Panteras built as special orders after that, but mine is the only one I am aware of (#9517, built in 1988 and sold as a 1989 model year)...
As per the Bill Van Ess registry, there were at least two more GT5's assembled with chassis numbers higher than 9375. They are 9405 and 9483.
cowboy from hell
George:
#9483 is a 1987 Pantera GTS that formerly belonged to Charlie Seabrook from New Jersey. I had already included it in my calculation above. However, I did not have access to the Bill Van Ess registry until just recently, and so I was not aware of #9405 being a GT5. Therefore, my estimate of the maximum total GT5-S production now goes down by one to 182. Conversely, my estimate of the maximum total GT5 production goes up by one to 253.
Below is a photo of #9483, which is very interesting by virtue of being equipped from the factory with a Clevor (Cleveland heads, Windsor block). I'm told by Frank, the new owner, that Charlie Seabrook had to go through a dealer in Australia when he had the car custom built because De Tomaso would not export directly to the USA:
Attachments
Images (1)
quote:Therefore, my estimate of the maximum total GT5-S production now goes down by one to 182. Conversely, my estimate of the maximum total GT5 production goes up by one to 253.
Peter,
So out of those possible maximum's for each how many do you now have in your registry as known whereabouts/existence?
Julian
Julian:
Sorry about taking so long to reply. I have not added the cars up yet because I keep thinking I'll first just add this car and then that car and then the Bill Van Ess cars and, and, and...
The registry is in major flux right now, so give me a week or two. If I forget, shoot me a snotgram via PM to remind me.
- Peter
Sorry about taking so long to reply. I have not added the cars up yet because I keep thinking I'll first just add this car and then that car and then the Bill Van Ess cars and, and, and...
The registry is in major flux right now, so give me a week or two. If I forget, shoot me a snotgram via PM to remind me.
- Peter