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We all did very well this weekend with regard to Pantera prices. That was me on stage if you watched, S108, #9473, 11,700km. That represents the third GT5-Steel car I've done deals on in the last 90 days. The market is now set. Add in fees & no sales tax, that is a quarter million dollar car. Last one I did was Freds car in Orange County 225k, and just a few weeks ago, Adams 5-Steel I flew to Jersey for.
My red Pantera [S164] sold, representing almost 120k w/fees. I also won the 5000 original mile maroon '74 GTS From Daytona, produced 7/74. I waited patiently until the reserve went off then I hit it. Meanwhile, the GT5-S once on stage REALLY dominated. The crowd was excited, and when it broke a hundred immediately everyone cheered, once it broke 200, the crowd went nuts. The bidding was furious, and at 10 grand a clip, my buddy The Captain & I watched every person bidding so I wouldn't outbid myself. Auction houses trick you that way. The guy that knocked me off for a dime thought he won the car. I watched, I waited. Didn't move. The auction stalled. Once the hammer raised to end the auction.... BOOM I hit it a nickel instead of a dime [auction houses hate that] but I don't care. Done deal. The guy was mad. Within 20 minutes the Mecum office called my cell with two higher offers. With regard to the twin turbo orange car, drop dead gorgeous car, I knew that car when George owned it. It was a gold/tan/brown color and everything that could be plated was gold, including the front bumper emblem. When George died the new owner had it painted. Had a note in the car for Mecum staff not to let the car idle, 'cooling' problem. Not sure what was up w/that. 5517 blue was a 3100 original mile car that did strong money all the way up. Super nice car with date coded Arriva tires [44th week of '73]true to the cars production date. I fell off the car at 110. Great weekend for Pantera values. Cheers.
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Yeah, was real fun to watch. On the GT5S cars, nice to have originality and low mileage to store in a nice garage to retain value. I would still prefer my bastardized GT5S show car with factory flares and Fontana race engine with no smog requirements. However I can see both preferences, with different ownership goals. Nice to see some good auction value finally, rather than what we have been seeing the past few years.
Last edited by does200
quote:
Originally posted by DOES 200:
Yeah, was real fun to watch. On the GT5S cars, nice to have originality and low mileage to store in a nice garage to retain value. I would still prefer my bastardized GT5S show car with factory flares and Fontana race engine with no smog requirements. However I can see both preferences, with different ownership goals. Nice to see some good auction value finally, rather than what we have been seeing the past few years.
I agree, time we're recognized.
We're onboard with all the exotics, the Hagerty Valuation Tool has Pantera shooting up like a rocket, check it out Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by Simon:
From what Fred from Orange County told me about the $225k silver Pantera GT5-S , he sell this to a gentleman from Texas. he's nothing told me about a car dealer from Florida.

I also was very close to a deal whit Mr.F.Heitman but my offer was just a little to low.
Simon

Well I can tell you about the car Dealer from Florida, I put the deal together. Initially sending Donnie from Full Throttle Pantera to check the car. I was in Denver inspecting the ebay white one at 200k & visiting Dennis. Freds deal was a tough go. I reported here on forum some weeks ago that we wanted to buy the car at full asking, 225, but Fred ~would not~ sell us the car. After spending all this time and money chasing it. Fred claims he was waiting until the end of the month, we had to wait 10 days, as he kinda promised to 'hold' the car for someone. Maybe that someone was you. None-the-less, we waited as instructed. Approached him once again to do a deal, and explaining the way we felt slighted over inspecting and agreeing to buy the car on sight, only to be told NO we couldn't buy it. He thought about it, and agreed it wasn't right. Long story short, done deal. So....it's now with Donnie, just down the street from Fred getting shocks & incidentals. Now you know about the car Dealer from Florida. He has another one you can buy, one off Hurst Model Pantera, super rare. Shark
quote:
Originally posted by George P:
That was a great report Jack, your comments are always appreciated.

FYI to everyone, Jack Sharkey is an icon in the Pantera world. He's been around a long time (none of us are getting younger, eh Jack?). I feel lucky that he contributes here.


Whoa THANKYOU Thankyou thankyou for the kind words George! You're the best! Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by ItalFord:
So does this mean that the Quarter Milliion GTS-5 has dragged up all other Pantera values too? Good if you already own. Bad if you are looking.

Big time. Go to the Haggerty Valuation Report and check values. He ensures them based on actual purchase prices and live auction prices. I may be responsible for the 5-Steel prices but not the narrow body prices.
Big time. Go to the Haggerty Valuation Report and check values. He ensures them based on actual purchase prices and live auction prices. I may be responsible for the 5-Steel prices but not the narrow body prices.[/QUOTE]

You are not responsible for the prices of the GT5-S , the people who put there own money on the table are responsible.
Simon
quote:
Originally posted by Sharkey:

Big time. Go to the Haggerty Valuation Report and check values. He ensures them based on actual purchase prices and live auction prices. I may be responsible for the 5-Steel prices but not the narrow body prices.


That is misleading; Hagerty values include for '71 through '74 cars by year and body style (pre-L, L and GTS). No where are the later non Ford era cars featured.

So you purchased 2 or 3 GT5-S with someones money, which represents a large proportion of recent sales. Yes you have most certainly influenced the market, it being so small. We need to wait and see if you were prudent or not, unless your buyer continues to buy all 187, then he can set the market!
Incorrect. I have buyers that trust my judgement. I tell them what they should pay, within my comfort level. One of my buyers is a GT-40 collector, who was standing next to me on stage in Kissimmee waiting for me pull the trigger. I've been directly responsible in four documented 5-S sales within the last 90 days including one celebrity purchase. That number will be five as soon as I get title details on the maroon DeTomaso built 5-S car in Nevada, that was imported by George Stauffer. I already have it sold for yet another record price. Stand by.
quote:
Originally posted by Sharkey:
Incorrect. I have buyers that trust my judgement. I tell them what they should pay, within my comfort level. One of my buyers is a GT-40 collector, who was standing next to me on stage in Kissimmee waiting for me pull the trigger. I've been directly responsible in four documented 5-S sales within the last 90 days including one celebrity purchase. That number will be five as soon as I get title details on the maroon DeTomaso built 5-S car in Nevada, that was imported by George Stauffer. I already have it sold for yet another record price. Stand by.

Arent we not all puppets from a puppeteer into a puppetshow?
And you are maybe the head puppet?

When you buy them all whit your own money ,than you are the man.

Not when the money come from somebody else.

I like also that the prices are going up and I believe also that Pantera's are a good investment , but the most I like is the hobby.
Simon
quote:
Originally posted by Simon:
quote:
Originally posted by Sharkey:
Incorrect. I have buyers that trust my judgement. I tell them what they should pay, within my comfort level. One of my buyers is a GT-40 collector, who was standing next to me on stage in Kissimmee waiting for me pull the trigger. I've been directly responsible in four documented 5-S sales within the last 90 days including one celebrity purchase. That number will be five as soon as I get title details on the maroon DeTomaso built 5-S car in Nevada, that was imported by George Stauffer. I already have it sold for yet another record price. Stand by.

Arent we not all puppets from a puppeteer into a puppetshow?
And you are maybe the head puppet?

When you buy them all whit your own money ,than you are the man.

Not when the money come from somebody else.

I like also that the prices are going up and I believe also that Pantera's are a good investment , but the most I like is the hobby.
Simon


What does it matter who buys them? Five cars well over $200,000, sold is five cars well over $200,000, sold? Where is the argument?
I think we all should embrace the fact that these cars are coming into there own.
Narrow body, GT5,GT5S, these are all iconic and before their time. The GT5-S today will WOW just about anybody with a pulse.

The Black car has issues from what I can see in the pics, looks like an original car needing some tlc, I guess the price was reflective on its condition.

Wayne
quote:
Originally posted by Joules:
quote:
Originally posted by Sharkey:

Big time. Go to the Haggerty Valuation Report and check values. He ensures them based on actual purchase prices and live auction prices. I may be responsible for the 5-Steel prices but not the narrow body prices.


That is misleading; Hagerty values include for '71 through '74 cars by year and body style (pre-L, L and GTS). No where are the later non Ford era cars featured.

So you purchased 2 or 3 GT5-S with someones money, which represents a large proportion of recent sales. Yes you have most certainly influenced the market, it being so small. We need to wait and see if you were prudent or not, unless your buyer continues to buy all 187, then he can set the market!


Jules did you not read the question? The question of Italford was' will this drag up the values of other Panteras' with no mention of 5-Steel cars. I answered his question directly using Haggerty Valuation for an example. Kindly reread his question then my direct answer before commenting.
quote:
Originally posted by Sharkey:

Jules did you not read the question? The question of Italford was' will this drag up the values of other Panteras' with no mention of 5-Steel cars. I answered his question directly using Haggerty Valuation for an example. Kindly reread his question then my direct answer before commenting.


I hate to get into a public argument, I sent you a PM with some hopefully constructive comments to think about.

Julian
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

What does it matter who buys them? Five cars well over $200,000, sold is five cars well over $200,000, sold? Where is the argument?


Doug,

Not so much an argument as a discussion around setting a market value. If I went out and paid $500K for a GT5-S is that the new market value? Probably not, but if I bought 5 at that price it may very well be, however I have set that price, not the market.

It's the same if I buy stock 3% (5 of 187) of all available stock in a company which will likely influence the stock price. That in itself creates attention and other investors will buy, but typically once the frenzy is over that stock drops back to a market dictated value. Of course that is the stock market, but investors are getting out of that because of volatility and investing in collector cars. Collector cars have as such become a traded commodity.

We will have to wait and see if the GT5-S commodity is the same, but if you keep buying then you can keep the price high and will own a higher percentage of the available 'stock'!

Wall Street comes to Main Street USA!
If you bought a 73 for 25 is that the value?

5 out of 187 up 100% from this time last year shows a high water mark.

Just like the Dow it is a market indicator.

Are there customers for 182 more at $225? Unlikely BUT it is HIGHLY likely the vast majority of those cars won't be for sale anytime soon.

Just like needing an engine pulley that cost $10 new but is so scarce that you have to pay $500 to get a good used one, there are similarities here.

The GT5's are rarer than the Mangustas OR any of the street Cobras. They are virtually going to demand their own price.

Those are both $25,000 cars that command whatever. $500,000 to $1,000,000.
Are they worth that? If someone is willing to pay that for them and certainly current owners aren't going to offer a car at under that number.

If you want one, you are going to have to pay what the seller wants. He doesn't care if you think it is unreasonable.
quote:
Originally posted by Joules:
quote:
Originally posted by Sharkey:

Jules did you not read the question? The question of Italford was' will this drag up the values of other Panteras' with no mention of 5-Steel cars. I answered his question directly using Haggerty Valuation for an example. Kindly reread his question then my direct answer before commenting.


I hate to get into a public argument, I sent you a PM with some hopefully constructive comments to think about.

Julian


Julian , I hope you get a replay.

I dont understand why Sharkey is so proud whit other peoples money.
he sud be proud if he owns them all he has bought
bdw this is my last comment on this .
Simon
Simon
Simon
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
quote:
Originally posted by Simon:
quote:
Originally posted by Sharkey:
Incorrect. I have buyers that trust my judgement. I tell them what they should pay, within my comfort level. One of my buyers is a GT-40 collector, who was standing next to me on stage in Kissimmee waiting for me pull the trigger. I've been directly responsible in four documented 5-S sales within the last 90 days including one celebrity purchase. That number will be five as soon as I get title details on the maroon DeTomaso built 5-S car in Nevada, that was imported by George Stauffer. I already have it sold for yet another record price. Stand by.

Arent we not all puppets from a puppeteer into a puppetshow?
And you are maybe the head puppet?

When you buy them all whit your own money ,than you are the man.

Not when the money come from somebody else.

I like also that the prices are going up and I believe also that Pantera's are a good investment , but the most I like is the hobby.
Simon


What does it matter who buys them? Five cars well over $200,000, sold is five cars well over $200,000, sold? Where is the argument?
quote:
Originally posted by Sharkey:
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
quote:
Originally posted by Simon:
quote:
Originally posted by Sharkey:
Incorrect. I have buyers that trust my judgement. I tell them what they should pay, within my comfort level. One of my buyers is a GT-40 collector, who was standing next to me on stage in Kissimmee waiting for me pull the trigger. I've been directly responsible in four documented 5-S sales within the last 90 days including one celebrity purchase. That number will be five as soon as I get title details on the maroon DeTomaso built 5-S car in Nevada, that was imported by George Stauffer. I already have it sold for yet another record price. Stand by.

Arent we not all puppets from a puppeteer into a puppetshow?
And you are maybe the head puppet?

When you buy them all whit your own money ,than you are the man.

Not when the money come from somebody else.

I like also that the prices are going up and I believe also that Pantera's are a good investment , but the most I like is the hobby.
Simon


What does it matter who buys them? Five cars well over $200,000, sold is five cars well over $200,000, sold? Where is the argument?


He doesn't get it Doug.
Can't we just agree that Pantera's seem to be on the way up in value and the GT5S are leading the pack?
I am quite pleased our cars are finally getting some recognition from original, to modified, narrow bodies to wide. Maybe the next time I am at a show or out for a drive people will actually know what the hell I am driving, or even have read up on Detomaso or Panteras. The last thing I want to see is people carving owners and buyers over values like on certain Shelby forums where anything that isn't concourse or has an improper $1.30 caution fan sticker on the shroud is labelled worthless and the owner belittled.

I don't think anyone is just dropping off a truck load of cash for Sharkey to go spend recklessly. Any interested buyer is still going to have a budget/price limit, so even if Sharkey is purchasing them they obviously trust his experience/expertise and are willing to pay up for the car they want.
Congratulations on the recent deals, Sharkey.
quote:
Originally posted by Sharkey:
quote:
Originally posted by Sharkey:
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
quote:
Originally posted by Simon:
quote:
Originally posted by Sharkey:
Incorrect. I have buyers that trust my judgement. I tell them what they should pay, within my comfort level. One of my buyers is a GT-40 collector, who was standing next to me on stage in Kissimmee waiting for me pull the trigger. I've been directly responsible in four documented 5-S sales within the last 90 days including one celebrity purchase. That number will be five as soon as I get title details on the maroon DeTomaso built 5-S car in Nevada, that was imported by George Stauffer. I already have it sold for yet another record price. Stand by.

Arent we not all puppets from a puppeteer into a puppetshow?
And you are maybe the head puppet?

When you buy them all whit your own money ,than you are the man.

Not when the money come from somebody else.

I like also that the prices are going up and I believe also that Pantera's are a good investment , but the most I like is the hobby.
Simon


What does it matter who buys them? Five cars well over $200,000, sold is five cars well over $200,000, sold? Where is the argument?


He doesn't get it Doug.


I agree. Either that or there is a VERY bad language issue.

A rising tide floats all boats.

Your buyers wanted the cars for the money.

I saw this happen recently with the Ford GT's. Call it a disbelief, a resistance, a bad attitude, whatever. It all applied.

People were bitchin' about spending $135,000, on them two years ago and that they paid too much.

You can't touch one for under $300,000, now. There are a lot more of them then the GT5 Panteras. Enough said?



It isn't market manipulation, it is what is called, free market here in the Capitalistic world.

I don't want to continue with this though. It sounds like I am lecturing and that is not my intention at all.
In various venues of specific cars, there will always be educated agents that are contacted by buyers to find, evaluate & procure certain cars, in this case of Pantera widebodies that agent is "Sharkey".

I personally would seek out an agent that has knowledge & especially the most important part, that being "Contacts" when pursuing an acquisition of a relatively expensive & limited production numbers car.

It's NOT as though Sharkey has the ability/ies to raise a paddle for an independent buyer at an auction, that is PURELY the action of the bidder.

The current rise in Pantera values in all configurations for myself is reminiscent of Ferrari Dino & Lamborghini Countach appreciation over the last 5 years.

The skeptics that balked in disbelief at $200,000.00 Ferrari Dinos, must be in full cardiac arrest at current $500,000.00 Dino prices.

Learned a LOOOOOOOOOONG TIME AGO!!!...that sitting on the bench in regards to NOT buying cars because of personal perceived "Over Valuation"...meant I NEVER got in the game!!!

Lesson well learned...thus the reason I currently own 18 Sports Cars...MANY having TRIPLED in value during my ownership!
quote:
Originally posted by Otis:
Can't we just agree that Pantera's seem to be on the way up in value and the GT5S are leading the pack?
I am quite pleased our cars are finally getting some recognition from original, to modified, narrow bodies to wide. Maybe the next time I am at a show or out for a drive people will actually know what the hell I am driving, or even have read up on Detomaso or Panteras. The last thing I want to see is people carving owners and buyers over values like on certain Shelby forums where anything that isn't concourse or has an improper $1.30 caution fan sticker on the shroud is labelled worthless and the owner belittled.

I don't think anyone is just dropping off a truck load of cash for Sharkey to go spend recklessly. Any interested buyer is still going to have a budget/price limit, so even if Sharkey is purchasing them they obviously trust his experience/expertise and are willing to pay up for the car they want.
Congratulations on the recent deals, Sharkey.
quote:
Originally posted by Sharkey:
quote:
Originally posted by Otis:
Can't we just agree that Pantera's seem to be on the way up in value and the GT5S are leading the pack?
I am quite pleased our cars are finally getting some recognition from original, to modified, narrow bodies to wide. Maybe the next time I am at a show or out for a drive people will actually know what the hell I am driving, or even have read up on Detomaso or Panteras. The last thing I want to see is people carving owners and buyers over values like on certain Shelby forums where anything that isn't concourse or has an improper $1.30 caution fan sticker on the shroud is labelled worthless and the owner belittled.

I don't think anyone is just dropping off a truck load of cash for Sharkey to go spend recklessly. Any interested buyer is still going to have a budget/price limit, so even if Sharkey is purchasing them they obviously trust his experience/expertise and are willing to pay up for the car they want.
Congratulations on the recent deals, Sharkey.


Amen Brother. I work hard for my money. It is difficult at best to tell someone that is sending you all across North America, this car isn't for you, it's edgy, it has undisclosed issues. Let's pass on this one. But they take it well, and in time, I get the right car for them. Thanks for the kind words Otis. Thank You
quote:
Originally posted by Otis:
Can't we just agree that Pantera's seem to be on the way up in value and the GT5S are leading the pack?
I am quite pleased our cars are finally getting some recognition from original, to modified, narrow bodies to wide. Maybe the next time I am at a show or out for a drive people will actually know what the hell I am driving, or even have read up on Detomaso or Panteras. The last thing I want to see is people carving owners and buyers over values like on certain Shelby forums where anything that isn't concourse or has an improper $1.30 caution fan sticker on the shroud is labelled worthless and the owner belittled.

I don't think anyone is just dropping off a truck load of cash for Sharkey to go spend recklessly. Any interested buyer is still going to have a budget/price limit, so even if Sharkey is purchasing them they obviously trust his experience/expertise and are willing to pay up for the car they want.
Congratulations on the recent deals, Sharkey.


Otis is without question "on the money" here.
in 2013 I was told that my 3840GTS, that I had bought from Gullwing for $41k was a $25K car
at the time that was a correct assessment, but I can only say that I am pleased that the values have increased, and I consider myself very fortunate to now not having lost money I can't afford to. That said, I do feel for those who always wanted a DTPantera but find the prices now prevent a purchase. Its a Bugger!
You've got no idea how privileged I feel getting my car even though its just a standard Pre-L for the price I did. I know I need to spend $$'s on it to get it perfect, but even then it'll be worth so much more than the initial investment + costs to do.

Not that I'm ever selling it - my girls are already fighting over it.
I do have to say, that the market is not a one way road. So stay cool and think twice.

There is absolutely no guarantee, that we will not see the prices again we had for the GTS and the L and the GT5S. Even so, you can not say, that there will be no F40 for $300.000 in the future. I have seen the market drop like this and it will again, definitly.

I have three classic cars right now, so don't blame me from this site. Just to mention not to get toooo enthusiastic about the raise.
Last edited by George P
quote:
Originally posted by PLT-1:
I have never had this experience with a hobby car. First: I usually change flavors after a year or two. Not so w/this car, it really checks all the boxes for me. Second: I have had my car 7 or 8 years and I think I could get twice what I paid... That has never happened before.


I see that smile on your face all the way from Miami Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by Michael 1424:
You've got no idea how privileged I feel getting my car even though its just a standard Pre-L for the price I did. I know I need to spend $$'s on it to get it perfect, but even then it'll be worth so much more than the initial investment + costs to do.

Not that I'm ever selling it - my girls are already fighting over it.


Wow, 1424, an April '71 build. We can't allow those girls to do battle, and we can't cut the car in half to share, only solution is to buy another one lol. I'm happy you own a chrome bumper car, I get emails from all over the world for any clean chrome bumper car for sale, while Americans seems to prefer the L models.
I had started dabbling in day trading some 15 years ago but was doing so very unsuccessfully. Working 50-60 hours a week didn't leave much time to do the necessary research. I got so frustrated that almost exactly 10 years ago I decided to pull my money out to spend it on the car of my dreams (after some serious negotiating with the wife, of course). So, instead of watching my money evaporate, I could sit in it, take it for a drive, wax it, etc etc...

And look at it now!!! Smiler Smiler
Last edited by duz185
quote:
Originally posted by Sharkey:



Wow, 1424, an April '71 build. We can't allow those girls to do battle, and we can't cut the car in half to share, only solution is to buy another one lol. I'm happy you own a chrome bumper car, I get emails from all over the world for any clean chrome bumper car for sale, while Americans seems to prefer the L models.


I am keeping an eye out for the right cars to set up the triple... I need another project of two with the Company first so I can afford them. 1424 has had the bumpers removed so the Chrome is gone - they're almost worth more than the car to replace at the moment.

That said - we've told the girls that this could end up like the Sisterhood of the Travelling Pants - except with a car.
quote:
Originally posted by Sharkey:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael 1424:
You've got no idea how privileged I feel getting my car even though its just a standard Pre-L for the price I did. I know I need to spend $$'s on it to get it perfect, but even then it'll be worth so much more than the initial investment + costs to do.

Not that I'm ever selling it - my girls are already fighting over it.


Wow, 1424, an April '71 build. We can't allow those girls to do battle, and we can't cut the car in half to share, only solution is to buy another one lol. I'm happy you own a chrome bumper car, I get emails from all over the world for any clean chrome bumper car for sale, while Americans seems to prefer the L models.
Have never seen a poll result over the preference of 5 mile an hour impact bumpers over chrome bumpers, as you seem to suggest in regards to European vs American buyers. Eeker

I personally feel the 5 mile an hour impact bumpers WRECK the front end look of the Pantera along with EVERY car having a 5 mile an hour impact bumper vs a chrome bumper!

I could sight endless examples...but DON'T want to relive those visual nightmares Eeker
Speedunlimited! Wow did you hit the nail on the car,mor should we say the gavel on the desk! I too am a collector and have a stable of select vehicles, but none more memorable, that bring a huge smile to my face, like when I owned my '74 at age 25! I sold it and paid triple to replace it! But in the meantime have sat by and watched car after car go by, saying these people are nuts to pay that. In golf they say, never up, never in!!!!!
I am happy to be an owner of two, and to having my head in the engine compartment once again! Cheers to all! Thank you for allowing me to be part of this Pantera community!
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraZog:
Speedunlimited! Wow did you hit the nail on the car,mor should we say the gavel on the desk! I too am a collector and have a stable of select vehicles, but none more memorable, that bring a huge smile to my face, like when I owned my '74 at age 25! I sold it and paid triple to replace it! But in the meantime have sat by and watched car after car go by, saying these people are nuts to pay that. In golf they say, never up, never in!!!!!
I am happy to be an owner of two, and to having my head in the engine compartment once again! Cheers to all! Thank you for allowing me to be part of this Pantera community!


Welcome to the Party Pal. Try not to let us, well definitely me anyway, not influence your better judgement.

It would probably be hazardous to your health? Wink
quote:
Originally posted by gilles027:
I do have to say, that the market is not a one way road. So stay cool and think twice.

There is absolutely no guarantee, that we will not see the prices again we had for the GTS and the L and the GT5S. Even so, you can not say, that there will be no F40 for $300.000 in the future. I have seen the market drop like this and it will again, definitly.

I have three classic cars right now, so don't blame me from this site. Just to mention not to get toooo enthusiastic about the raise.


What collectible cars have ever really gone down substantially? Please tell me there is hope for me owning a Countach? I mean I could work extra hard to get together the $400K US to own one, but it is still a turd. And for $400K there are much faster cars available and just as cool and collectable.
quote:
Originally posted by Joe A:
I have to put my 2 cents in. I love the car, but the pre L front end looks like a penis that has been cut off at the tip, God had intended it to look as the L model does that is why they did it.
...Thus the Pre-L is a "Chick Magnet" Sweet & the "L" for "foreskin Haters" Sympathy

I believe that "God" was busy creating Tropical Storm Carrie in 1972 vs designing the front end of the L series Pantera.
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraWanabe:
quote:
Originally posted by gilles027:
I do have to say, that the market is not a one way road. So stay cool and think twice.

There is absolutely no guarantee, that we will not see the prices again we had for the GTS and the L and the GT5S. Even so, you can not say, that there will be no F40 for $300.000 in the future. I have seen the market drop like this and it will again, definitly.

I have three classic cars right now, so don't blame me from this site. Just to mention not to get toooo enthusiastic about the raise.


What collectible cars have ever really gone down substantially? Please tell me there is hope for me owning a Countach? I mean I could work extra hard to get together the $400K US to own one, but it is still a turd. And for $400K there are much faster cars available and just as cool and collectable.
The $400K Lamborghini Countach ship has sailed, and left you holding your luggage & boarding pass at the dock!...

Also at a TOP SPEED of 183 MPH if you consider the Countach a "Turd", what expletive do you use to describe a Pantera whose top speed is 30mph LESS!!!
http://www.lambocars.com/lambo...ncrease_in_2014.html
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Who says it is only GT5's? Check this out.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/131719...1719379690&viewitem=

This one is a better deal.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/De-Tom...Le&item=272122885486

Well, 300k is on the top end. In his defense, have a good detailed look at what Don was able to do. He builds a beautiful car, that nobody can argue. It takes two years & a ton of labor & padsion to do a car up like that. Check out his work on the internet. He has a shop full of them and he has an excellent following. In fact, I have a car sitting there as we speak. I have no problem sending him west coast clients of mine. He's a perfectionist, and he's good people. Check out Full Throttle Panteras.
quote:
Originally posted by Sharkey:
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Who says it is only GT5's? Check this out.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/131719...1719379690&viewitem=

This one is a better deal.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/De-Tom...Le&item=272122885486

Well, 300k is on the top end. In his defense, have a good detailed look at what Don was able to do. He builds a beautiful car, that nobody can argue. It takes two years & a ton of labor & padsion to do a car up like that. Check out his work on the internet. He has a shop full of them and he has an excellent following. In fact, I have a car sitting there as we speak. I have no problem sending him west coast clients of mine. He's a perfectionist, and he's good people. Check out Full Throttle Panteras.


Excuse the spell check, I meant passion.
quote:
Originally posted by Sharkey:
quote:
Originally posted by Sharkey:
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Who says it is only GT5's? Check this out.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/131719...1719379690&viewitem=

This one is a better deal.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/De-Tom...Le&item=272122885486

Well, 300k is on the top end. In his defense, have a good detailed look at what Don was able to do. He builds a beautiful car, that nobody can argue. It takes two years & a ton of labor & padsion to do a car up like that. Check out his work on the internet. He has a shop full of them and he has an excellent following. In fact, I have a car sitting there as we speak. I have no problem sending him west coast clients of mine. He's a perfectionist, and he's good people. Check out Full Throttle Panteras.


Excuse the spell check, I meant passion.
The ad lists OVER 70 items of custom work done to the Pantera, yet NO DYNO print-out.

Why NOT focus on "1" of the most Important elements of the Pantera...& instead mention such mundane & non consequential items such as..."Custom painted engine shroud" & "Custom chrome front hinges" & "Anodized knobs & controls"???!!!
quote:
Originally posted by speedunlimited:
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraWanabe:
quote:
Originally posted by gilles027:
I do have to say, that the market is not a one way road. So stay cool and think twice.

There is absolutely no guarantee, that we will not see the prices again we had for the GTS and the L and the GT5S. Even so, you can not say, that there will be no F40 for $300.000 in the future. I have seen the market drop like this and it will again, definitly.

I have three classic cars right now, so don't blame me from this site. Just to mention not to get toooo enthusiastic about the raise.


What collectible cars have ever really gone down substantially? Please tell me there is hope for me owning a Countach? I mean I could work extra hard to get together the $400K US to own one, but it is still a turd. And for $400K there are much faster cars available and just as cool and collectable.
The $400K Lamborghini Countach ship has sailed, and left you holding your luggage & boarding pass at the dock!...

Also at a TOP SPEED of 183 MPH if you consider the Countach a "Turd", what expletive do you use to describe a Pantera whose top speed is 30mph LESS!!!
http://www.lambocars.com/lambo...ncrease_in_2014.html


A anniversary can be had for $400k and a standing 1/4 mile of 13.5 in today's money is a turd indeed. And lets face it it is not the most ergonomic and well put together vehicle ever made. Don't get me wrong I love the Countach, it is arguably the most iconic motor vehicle ever built and like many people it is the dream car. But is it worth $400K when there are other cars in that price range that will do over 200mph and a 1/4 mile in 10.5? I'm not so sure. Unfortunately the Countach is going to be relegated to collection duties and rarely see the light of day. For me who wants a car I can drive, the money for awesome factor is starting to tip in the favour of more modern supercars.
quote:
A anniversary can be had for $400k and a standing 1/4 mile of 13.5 in today's money is a turd indeed. And lets face it it is not the most ergonomic and well put together vehicle ever made. Don't get me wrong I love the Countach, it is arguably the most iconic motor vehicle ever built and like many people it is the dream car. But is it worth $400K when there are other cars in that price range that will do over 200mph and a 1/4 mile in 10.5? I'm not so sure. Unfortunately the Countach is going to be relegated to collection duties and rarely see the light of day. For me who wants a car I can drive, the money for awesome factor is starting to tip in the favour of more modern supercars.

quote:
range

Wow you're pretty rough on the Countach! Having owned one, your absolutely on target, and left a lot out. IMPOSSIBLE car to get parts for. My carbureted early model had a water pump failure. The housing was frozen/crusted in the block. I managed to get it out but cracked a piece. Called Bill at GT Car Parts. Took one YEAR to locate a USED one, oh... this was almost 20 years ago! Then the clutch slave gave out. H U G E headache to get to. TWIN Magneli Merelli Distributors that EACH had duel points AND condensers. IMPOSSIBLE to syncronize, AND... the GD timing mark is up in a HOLE...UNDER the BELL housing. Try timing THAT, trying to locate the marks with the light when you can't even move the distributor[s] because you're under the car. The flywheel marks looked like they used a saw blade to make. Horrible horrible car. Wasn't even fast. Didn't have the juice of the Boxer. Those early cars were dogs. Oh, one more thing to consider. I would charge the carburetors by leaving the fuel pumps run a half minute or so before starting. BIG mistake. One of the side draft Webers had a STUCK FLOAT. Happened to be an open intake valve right there. Filled the cylinder #10 with raw fuel. The ENGINE HYDRAULICED & BENT THE ROD. NEVER AGAIN would I buy another one. The piston/cylinder assembly had to be MADE. Another YEAR and a half down time. At least with my Boxer I could FIND PARTS. But, in it's defense, I LOVED ][looking at] THAT CAR. Even though every time I drove it something else broke. Go locate a Merelli ignition switch! Sold it for 52 grand after 6 months for sale. Like you said, excellent showroom piece ONLY.
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraWanabe:

A anniversary can be had for $400k and a standing 1/4 mile of 13.5 in today's money is a turd indeed. And lets face it it is not the most ergonomic and well put together vehicle ever made. Don't get me wrong I love the Countach, it is arguably the most iconic motor vehicle ever built and like many people it is the dream car. But is it worth $400K when there are other cars in that price range that will do over 200mph and a 1/4 mile in 10.5? I'm not so sure. Unfortunately the Countach is going to be relegated to collection duties and rarely see the light of day. For me who wants a car I can drive, the money for awesome factor is starting to tip in the favour of more modern supercars.


How many Countach's have you seen at the drag strip? I don't know why people quote 1/4 miles times, these were never meant to be drag cars.

Yes there are more modern cars that will outperform, you have to decide where you want to put your money and your intended use, road or track?

If you want pure bang for the buck I'll sell you my Ultima CanAm, 0-60mph sub 3 seconds and a price sub $100K takes some beating for visceral experience.

Julian
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Do you have a link to more pictures?

I have about 6 more photos of the white car, including red interior, but it seems I need to put the photos on my Flickr page to post multiple photos. Pulled my back changing brake fluid, so will get to it when my Flexeril and Drambie ware off.
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraWanabe:
quote:
Originally posted by gilles027:
I do have to say, that the market is not a one way road. So stay cool and think twice.

There is absolutely no guarantee, that we will not see the prices again we had for the GTS and the L and the GT5S. Even so, you can not say, that there will be no F40 for $300.000 in the future. I have seen the market drop like this and it will again, definitly.

I have three classic cars right now, so don't blame me from this site. Just to mention not to get toooo enthusiastic about the raise.


What collectible cars have ever really gone down substantially? Please tell me there is hope for me owning a Countach? I mean I could work extra hard to get together the $400K US to own one, but it is still a turd. And for $400K there are much faster cars available and just as cool and collectable.


Ok, 365 Daytona costs 1988 $25000, then Enzo Ferrari died and we saw the million. We dropped back to $150.000 mid 2000s and now we see the million again and we will definitly see these cars again at $200.000. This is the way the market works. People lose interest, go to other assets ant then is the time for a car enthusiast to buy.
https://www.mecum.com/lot-deta...ach-5000-QV/5-Speed/

nothing more to say about the market. The bubble is right to explode in a few month.
We will see people trying to sell cars and now one will give the money they charge. Then panic will take over control and fear, because a lot of ca owners are no car enthusiast but think of these cars as stocks and probably even worse, did not have the money for their car in cash.... kabummm.

Hagerty 930

Mecum 930

Gap from hagerty to real price $200.000+ or 70% less then hagerty valuation?
quote:
nothing more to say about the market. The bubble is right to explode in a few month. We will see people trying to sell cars and now one will give the money they charge. Then panic will take over control and fear, because a lot of ca owners are no car enthusiast but think of these cars as stocks and probably even worse, did not have the money for their car in cash.... kabummm.


I totally agree. The prices will come down - Pantera prices too. Maybe sell now and re-buy in a few years ? :-).

Afterall - it's just a car
quote:
Originally posted by gilles027:

But the guys who think a car is a stock option, they should sell now.

It is a car, a lot of people do not understand right now.

All it want to say, it is not a one way road.


And that will be a good thing for the true car enthusiasts, once investors realize their is also risk in collector cars, just like the stock market, it is over subscribed right now.

I believe the likes of the everyday Ferrari's, 308's etc. that have all been dragged up by the bubble will be hardest hit. Like everything the cars that are true rarities will remain in demand.

Julian
My Drambuie and Flexeril wore off, so I posted more photos of that white car PanteraDoug requested, temporally posted to my Flickr page (white car at the bottom after opening the link):
https://www.flickr.com/photos/102810426@N07/albums

Looks like it was for sale in 2003 and also 2007 from what I find in my files noted below:


April 2003 Collector Car Trader:

YEAR 1988 MILEAGE 11500
MAKE DE TOMASO EXTERIOR COLOR White
MODEL PANTERA INTERIOR COLOR Tan
PRICE $79,900.00 ENGINE 351 Cleaveland
LOCATION saint pete, FL TRANSMISSION 5 Speed
CONTACT NUMBER (727) 528-1777 DRIVETRAIN RWD
CLASS Exotic DOORS 2
BODY STYLE Coupe

DESCRIPTION
1988 DE TOMASO PANTERA, GT5-S This all original Pantera is the original prototype for the Pantera II. This car has a great history, and is truely collectable. Only 49 cars built from 1985 to 1988. This may be your last chance to own this caliber of car at this price. Serious Inq. ONLY! Thx.


For sale in 2007:

C. BRODY INVESTMENT MOTORCARS
CALL TOLL FREE: (888) 886-2656
2950 GLADES CIRCLE UNIT 4
WESTON, FL 33327

EMAIL US | MAP IT | DEALER GALLERY
PHONEFrowner954) 646-8819
FAX: (954) 349-1943


Year 1989 Make DeTomaso Model Pantera GT5-S
Engine 351C/305 HP Transmission 5 Spd. Price $85,000.

The Italian bodied Hybrid cars have been around for many a decade. The DeTomaso company was no stranger to this exotic body w/an American powertrain idea. The model that DeTomaso made prior to the Pantera was the Mangusta. The Mangusta was a fabulous design of Italian penmanship, but was a complete failure having multiple overheating issues & bad handling characteristics. The Pantera's introduction was to be a new begining for DeTomaso in the USA. Only available from 1971 thru 1974, the Lincoln-Mercury division canned the idea of the Pantera after a few years of customer complaints. That didn't stop continued sales overseas w/marginal success. The very last year for the Pantera to be imported thru various private sources was 1989. In fact, this serial # 9494 was the very last car imported into the States thru "Steering Wheel" in Ft.Lauderdale, Florida. They were an exotic car agency w/an array of cool cars for sale during the 80's when Miami Vice was the # 1 show on TV. This gorgeous White GT5-S has a wonderful Burgandy Leather interior. It was bought new by it's 1st owner from Canada, who kept it garaged from day one. After only 1000 miles & 13 years, It's 2nd owner purchased this Pantera & used it often for most Pantera PCOA events. It was driven from Florida to Pennsylvania on a 3400 miles journey quite successfully. The current owner also has spent many thousands to make this the most reliable & user friendly GT5-S in the world. Every update was made from the cooling system to the brake system. The A/C system was redone last year & will blow you out of the car. This GT5-s also comes w/a huge file of reciepts for every item on the car replaced or redone to the tune of over $50K. It has now 23K KM which translates to 14588 miles driven from new. It is near new condition inside out & having nothing left to sort except where the accelerator pedal is !!! This is the very last US Spec Pantera GT5-S ever imported into the US...it now can be added to your personal collection. Easy decision to make...YES !
I got my car because it was my dream car. I did not get it to rub it and myself in the garage, I got it to drive. I am going to put as many miles on it as I can. 75k, 100k, so what? I'm not going to sell it, my widow is. If you got one for a 401k, sell it now and let someone that is going to drive it enjoy it. If you want to invest, buy gold. Drive and enjoy, right now are the good old days!
quote:
Originally posted by Joe A:
I got my car because it was my dream car. I did not get it to rub it and myself in the garage, I got it to drive. I am going to put as many miles on it as I can. 75k, 100k, so what? I'm not going to sell it, my widow is. If you got one for a 401k, sell it now and let someone that is going to drive it enjoy it. If you want to invest, buy gold. Drive and enjoy, right now are the good old days!


No point having it if you don't drive it! I cannot wait till I get mine registered so I can give it some much needed miles to clear the cobwebs out of it....
quote:
Originally posted by Sharkey:
quote:
A anniversary can be had for $400k and a standing 1/4 mile of 13.5 in today's money is a turd indeed. And lets face it it is not the most ergonomic and well put together vehicle ever made. Don't get me wrong I love the Countach, it is arguably the most iconic motor vehicle ever built and like many people it is the dream car. But is it worth $400K when there are other cars in that price range that will do over 200mph and a 1/4 mile in 10.5? I'm not so sure. Unfortunately the Countach is going to be relegated to collection duties and rarely see the light of day. For me who wants a car I can drive, the money for awesome factor is starting to tip in the favour of more modern supercars.

quote:
range

Wow you're pretty rough on the Countach! Having owned one, your absolutely on target, and left a lot out. IMPOSSIBLE car to get parts for. My carbureted early model had a water pump failure. The housing was frozen/crusted in the block. I managed to get it out but cracked a piece. Called Bill at GT Car Parts. Took one YEAR to locate a USED one, oh... this was almost 20 years ago! Then the clutch slave gave out. H U G E headache to get to. TWIN Magneli Merelli Distributors that EACH had duel points AND condensers. IMPOSSIBLE to syncronize, AND... the GD timing mark is up in a HOLE...UNDER the BELL housing. Try timing THAT, trying to locate the marks with the light when you can't even move the distributor[s] because you're under the car. The flywheel marks looked like they used a saw blade to make. Horrible horrible car. Wasn't even fast. Didn't have the juice of the Boxer. Those early cars were dogs. Oh, one more thing to consider. I would charge the carburetors by leaving the fuel pumps run a half minute or so before starting. BIG mistake. One of the side draft Webers had a STUCK FLOAT. Happened to be an open intake valve right there. Filled the cylinder #10 with raw fuel. The ENGINE HYDRAULICED & BENT THE ROD. NEVER AGAIN would I buy another one. The piston/cylinder assembly had to be MADE. Another YEAR and a half down time. At least with my Boxer I could FIND PARTS. But, in it's defense, I LOVED ][looking at] THAT CAR. Even though every time I drove it something else broke. Go locate a Merelli ignition switch! Sold it for 52 grand after 6 months for sale. Like you said, excellent showroom piece ONLY.


After hearing all that I am not sure I want one anymore! I kind of liked the idea of owning a Countach partly because I could work on it but sounds like more trouble than it is worth.
quote:
Originally posted by gilles027:
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraWanabe:
quote:
Originally posted by gilles027:
I do have to say, that the market is not a one way road. So stay cool and think twice.

There is absolutely no guarantee, that we will not see the prices again we had for the GTS and the L and the GT5S. Even so, you can not say, that there will be no F40 for $300.000 in the future. I have seen the market drop like this and it will again, definitly.

I have three classic cars right now, so don't blame me from this site. Just to mention not to get toooo enthusiastic about the raise.


What collectible cars have ever really gone down substantially? Please tell me there is hope for me owning a Countach? I mean I could work extra hard to get together the $400K US to own one, but it is still a turd. And for $400K there are much faster cars available and just as cool and collectable.


Ok, 365 Daytona costs 1988 $25000, then Enzo Ferrari died and we saw the million. We dropped back to $150.000 mid 2000s and now we see the million again and we will definitly see these cars again at $200.000. This is the way the market works. People lose interest, go to other assets ant then is the time for a car enthusiast to buy.


So there is hope for me yet. I guess when all the people who have lusted for the Countach are old and grey the interest will wane.
quote:
Originally posted by Joules:
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraWanabe:

A anniversary can be had for $400k and a standing 1/4 mile of 13.5 in today's money is a turd indeed. And lets face it it is not the most ergonomic and well put together vehicle ever made. Don't get me wrong I love the Countach, it is arguably the most iconic motor vehicle ever built and like many people it is the dream car. But is it worth $400K when there are other cars in that price range that will do over 200mph and a 1/4 mile in 10.5? I'm not so sure. Unfortunately the Countach is going to be relegated to collection duties and rarely see the light of day. For me who wants a car I can drive, the money for awesome factor is starting to tip in the favour of more modern supercars.


How many Countach's have you seen at the drag strip? I don't know why people quote 1/4 miles times, these were never meant to be drag cars.

Yes there are more modern cars that will outperform, you have to decide where you want to put your money and your intended use, road or track?

If you want pure bang for the buck I'll sell you my Ultima CanAm, 0-60mph sub 3 seconds and a price sub $100K takes some beating for visceral experience.

Julian


Modern supercars are capable of blindingly fast 1/4 mile times AND 200+ mph top speeds. And they do it without trying. You can have your drag car and a tourer in one package for under $200k. But I am happy to take the Ultima CanAm off your hands for the weekend. I promise to give it back. Wink
quote:
Originally posted by Sharkey:
quote:
A anniversary can be had for $400k and a standing 1/4 mile of 13.5 in today's money is a turd indeed. And lets face it it is not the most ergonomic and well put together vehicle ever made. Don't get me wrong I love the Countach, it is arguably the most iconic motor vehicle ever built and like many people it is the dream car. But is it worth $400K when there are other cars in that price range that will do over 200mph and a 1/4 mile in 10.5? I'm not so sure. Unfortunately the Countach is going to be relegated to collection duties and rarely see the light of day. For me who wants a car I can drive, the money for awesome factor is starting to tip in the favour of more modern supercars.

quote:
range

Wow you're pretty rough on the Countach! Having owned one, your absolutely on target, and left a lot out. IMPOSSIBLE car to get parts for. My carbureted early model had a water pump failure. The housing was frozen/crusted in the block. I managed to get it out but cracked a piece. Called Bill at GT Car Parts. Took one YEAR to locate a USED one, oh... this was almost 20 years ago! Then the clutch slave gave out. H U G E headache to get to. TWIN Magneli Merelli Distributors that EACH had duel points AND condensers. IMPOSSIBLE to syncronize, AND... the GD timing mark is up in a HOLE...UNDER the BELL housing. Try timing THAT, trying to locate the marks with the light when you can't even move the distributor[s] because you're under the car. The flywheel marks looked like they used a saw blade to make. Horrible horrible car. Wasn't even fast. Didn't have the juice of the Boxer. Those early cars were dogs. Oh, one more thing to consider. I would charge the carburetors by leaving the fuel pumps run a half minute or so before starting. BIG mistake. One of the side draft Webers had a STUCK FLOAT. Happened to be an open intake valve right there. Filled the cylinder #10 with raw fuel. The ENGINE HYDRAULICED & BENT THE ROD. NEVER AGAIN would I buy another one. The piston/cylinder assembly had to be MADE. Another YEAR and a half down time. At least with my Boxer I could FIND PARTS. But, in it's defense, I LOVED ][looking at] THAT CAR. Even though every time I drove it something else broke. Go locate a Merelli ignition switch! Sold it for 52 grand after 6 months for sale. Like you said, excellent showroom piece ONLY.


Great info on the GT5-S market and terrible info on Countach ownership.

The owners manual has a chapter on how to start the car and avoid the problems you encountered. Some models of Countach can do a 1/4 mile in 12 seconds but that's not what they are made for.

A Bugatti Type 57 is worth many millions of dollars and is slower than a new Honda Odyssey.

That's not the reason to purchase or own it.

LSJ

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