I am going to install the oil drainback hoses to the oil pan. I have the aviad pan and don't want to weld on it.
How can I install 4 fittings through the pan without welding bungs and without leaks?
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Doug, I'd use 90 degree bulkhead fittings with bulkhead nuts and copper crush washers, Dowty Seals or Stat-O-Seals to prevent oil from seeping out around the fittings. I'd also use Loctite on the nuts to make sure they'll never come loose inside the pan. Why don't you want to weld on the pan? You'd never need to worry about the fittings loosening from vibration. Also, are you sure you need four drainback lines? Isn't one at the back of each head sufficient?
The pan is cad plated gold. If I weld on it, will need to refinish the pan. Trying to save one step but am toying with welding on the bungs and just sending the pan to the powder coater?
As far as how many drain back locations to have...I think this all started with the publication way back in '69 of the Boss 302 racing preparation booklets that Ford published.
They recommended the fittings in the valve covers. If you follow the discussions on the 351c web page, a suggestion was made to put the fitting in the heads instead, right over the head drain back holes.
A couple of thoughts come up to me as a result. 1) when NASCAR went to the 5.7 limit on engines in the '70s, the Ford racers of course moved to the 351c engine as the next best thing to a 429 shotgun. That engine immediately started to suffer from valve spring failure.
Eventually the fix for that was to make the oil puddle or flood the head with a lake of oil to submerge the valve springs in oil to cool them, and the problem stopped.
That was with the iron head. I am running aluminum A3 heads. If you look closely at those heads, you will see that the valve cover rails on them have been increased over the production iron counterparts? That I am pretty sure is for this oil bath thing? Do I want to reduce that lake of oil under racing conditions with the drain back holes?
2)there is no talk of check valves in these hose assemblies to keep oil in the pan from backing up back into the covers under cornering loads of racing? Do I need those? I wonder?
Well that's where I am at, and all this talk of race prepping a 351c for flat out rpm is timely for me so I thought I'd bring this all up here now.
Actually I'd like to see pictures of what others have done and hear what others think about the importance of these items and the problems that occurred as a result and such.
For instance, never hear of anyone talking about using a main girdle on a D2CA block? Any opinions on that?
As far as how many drain back locations to have...I think this all started with the publication way back in '69 of the Boss 302 racing preparation booklets that Ford published.
They recommended the fittings in the valve covers. If you follow the discussions on the 351c web page, a suggestion was made to put the fitting in the heads instead, right over the head drain back holes.
A couple of thoughts come up to me as a result. 1) when NASCAR went to the 5.7 limit on engines in the '70s, the Ford racers of course moved to the 351c engine as the next best thing to a 429 shotgun. That engine immediately started to suffer from valve spring failure.
Eventually the fix for that was to make the oil puddle or flood the head with a lake of oil to submerge the valve springs in oil to cool them, and the problem stopped.
That was with the iron head. I am running aluminum A3 heads. If you look closely at those heads, you will see that the valve cover rails on them have been increased over the production iron counterparts? That I am pretty sure is for this oil bath thing? Do I want to reduce that lake of oil under racing conditions with the drain back holes?
2)there is no talk of check valves in these hose assemblies to keep oil in the pan from backing up back into the covers under cornering loads of racing? Do I need those? I wonder?
Well that's where I am at, and all this talk of race prepping a 351c for flat out rpm is timely for me so I thought I'd bring this all up here now.
Actually I'd like to see pictures of what others have done and hear what others think about the importance of these items and the problems that occurred as a result and such.
For instance, never hear of anyone talking about using a main girdle on a D2CA block? Any opinions on that?
I don't know about the oil-bath for the valve springs. Seems you'd get a LOT of burnt oil from leaking down the valve stem.
I expect the increased rail height on your A3 heads are to accommodate a sturdier roller rocker valve train, not to maintain a larger reservoir of oil in the heads. But then again, I'm just speculating. Hopefully Dan Jones weigh's in on this one.
Check out this thread for pics of oil drain lines in the heads:
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...?r=76310798#76310798
I expect the increased rail height on your A3 heads are to accommodate a sturdier roller rocker valve train, not to maintain a larger reservoir of oil in the heads. But then again, I'm just speculating. Hopefully Dan Jones weigh's in on this one.
Check out this thread for pics of oil drain lines in the heads:
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...?r=76310798#76310798
Most guys don't use girdles on Clevelands, not even for racing. The main caps are beefy enough, and the large foot print stabilizes the caps enough, they are very resistant to squirming. Denny Wydendorf says he doesn't detect signs of cap walk with 2 bolt mains until 8000 rpm! I don't think Bill Gay intended the Cleveland to have 4 bolt mains, he made the 2 bolt lower end very beefy. The little outboard bolts added to the four bolt mains stabilizes the caps enough for 10,000 rpm!
A car running on street tires will never need external oil drain hoses. The G Forces will never be high enough to warrant them. If oil is packing in the valve covers of a car equipped with street tires, there is too much oil flowing to the valve gear. The motor needs lifter bushings, restricted push rods, the Boss 351 lifters or something like that.
I wouldn't install external drain hoses on a car running race tires until the oil pressure gage indicated I needed them.
I wouldn't worry about additional oil to cool the valve springs until my springs started to show signs of loosing their tension (early valve float). And the first thing to do to remedy over heating of the springs is to install an oil cooler, not to increase the amount of oil supplied to the springs.
In fact, any car that is going to be raced on a track should be equipped with an oil cooler and an oil accumulator (an AccuSump) before the first lap.
NASCAR racing (500 miles of non-stop high speed racing on banked ovals) is an extreme test of a race car. There's no reason to assume your car will encounter any of the problems that NASCAR race cars encountered.
-G
A car running on street tires will never need external oil drain hoses. The G Forces will never be high enough to warrant them. If oil is packing in the valve covers of a car equipped with street tires, there is too much oil flowing to the valve gear. The motor needs lifter bushings, restricted push rods, the Boss 351 lifters or something like that.
I wouldn't install external drain hoses on a car running race tires until the oil pressure gage indicated I needed them.
I wouldn't worry about additional oil to cool the valve springs until my springs started to show signs of loosing their tension (early valve float). And the first thing to do to remedy over heating of the springs is to install an oil cooler, not to increase the amount of oil supplied to the springs.
In fact, any car that is going to be raced on a track should be equipped with an oil cooler and an oil accumulator (an AccuSump) before the first lap.
NASCAR racing (500 miles of non-stop high speed racing on banked ovals) is an extreme test of a race car. There's no reason to assume your car will encounter any of the problems that NASCAR race cars encountered.
-G
Well I did ask these questions here to get opinions from some of the racers here.
I never saw drain back lines until I saw the 69 Boss 302 "factory cars". My opinion is that they wouldn't hurt.
As far as the NASCAR fix on the springs, that is something that I read a long time ago which was timely, i.e., late '70s. I believe it has a Bud Moore cross reference on it and even in Ford circles he is a rogue.
...and who said I was looking to run street tires anyway? Chasing vintage racers even in open tracks and practice sessions at 8200 rpm in top gear kinda makes one think about cheap things that can be added for a little durability? Actually the drain back tubes would kinda' look a little cool anyway?
As far as the girdle goes, I looking for a way to brace the stock block a little. In the days of Gapp & Rousch I can personally attest that that car was turning something like 10,000rpm.
I could see where Jack Rousch could say, that eventually you will crack the block through the main webs.
Incidentally, I havem't seen small orafice solid lifters for a Cleveland in years. I think there are just Ford SB solid lifters from the cam grinders availible these days.
If I see the need to use valve lifter sleeves with oiling restrictions in the engine, these other items are cheap considerations right now?
I also think that the part of the head that serves as the oil trough on the Ford Aluminum racing heads, is just a little bit different then the iron production heads?
You know Garth, I'll bet you a nickle that the Ford engineers actually can do more then one consideration in a design a the same time? Kinda' like walking and chewing gum? LOL!
I never saw drain back lines until I saw the 69 Boss 302 "factory cars". My opinion is that they wouldn't hurt.
As far as the NASCAR fix on the springs, that is something that I read a long time ago which was timely, i.e., late '70s. I believe it has a Bud Moore cross reference on it and even in Ford circles he is a rogue.
...and who said I was looking to run street tires anyway? Chasing vintage racers even in open tracks and practice sessions at 8200 rpm in top gear kinda makes one think about cheap things that can be added for a little durability? Actually the drain back tubes would kinda' look a little cool anyway?
As far as the girdle goes, I looking for a way to brace the stock block a little. In the days of Gapp & Rousch I can personally attest that that car was turning something like 10,000rpm.
I could see where Jack Rousch could say, that eventually you will crack the block through the main webs.
Incidentally, I havem't seen small orafice solid lifters for a Cleveland in years. I think there are just Ford SB solid lifters from the cam grinders availible these days.
If I see the need to use valve lifter sleeves with oiling restrictions in the engine, these other items are cheap considerations right now?
I also think that the part of the head that serves as the oil trough on the Ford Aluminum racing heads, is just a little bit different then the iron production heads?
You know Garth, I'll bet you a nickle that the Ford engineers actually can do more then one consideration in a design a the same time? Kinda' like walking and chewing gum? LOL!
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
... As far as the girdle goes, I looking for a way to brace the stock block a little. In the days of Gapp & Rousch I can personally attest that that car was turning something like 10,000rpm.
I could see where Jack Rousch could say, that eventually you will crack the block through the main webs.
I have received testimony from several racers that when they started using ATI dampeners their Cleveland blocks stopped cracking.
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Incidentally, I havem't seen small orafice solid lifters for a Cleveland in years. I think there are just Ford SB solid lifters from the cam grinders availible these days.
Johnson lifters supplied the original Boss 351 solid flat lifter (with an internal oil metering plate). That lifter, still supplied by Johnson lifters, is sold by Crower Cams under part number 66915X980-16P. This part number also specifies Crower’s best surface finish and best heat treatment.
-G
Thanks for the info G-man. 
Doug,
Where you been hiding ? So where you running that Pantera in Vinage racing ? Lime Rock ?
Ron
Where you been hiding ? So where you running that Pantera in Vinage racing ? Lime Rock ?
Ron
I'm like the shark in Jaws. I'm always around. You just don't see me...listen for the music. It's always the tip off.
It won't qualify for Vintage and neither would I. Just prepping it to run in open track events with the vintage racers. I have a few bucks and if it works out right and can get this all done.
Got my 68 Shelby up and running with 347, 5speed, 2x4's and Trans-Am brakes.
With any luck they will both be completely ready by May and I can pick which one fits the beauty of the day better?
What made you decide to run the engine as a 383? I figure I might as well run it as a 408. It costs the same to build either.
What did you do with oil drain back tubes, anything at all?
It won't qualify for Vintage and neither would I. Just prepping it to run in open track events with the vintage racers. I have a few bucks and if it works out right and can get this all done.
Got my 68 Shelby up and running with 347, 5speed, 2x4's and Trans-Am brakes.
With any luck they will both be completely ready by May and I can pick which one fits the beauty of the day better?
What made you decide to run the engine as a 383? I figure I might as well run it as a 408. It costs the same to build either.
What did you do with oil drain back tubes, anything at all?