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I have followed the tread on Fontana Block & Oil Level. Based on the diagrams for dipstick tube and dipstick dimensions, I marked my dipstick for F and A on that basis.
As history, since I bought this car I have had concerns about the correct oil level. I got an invoice that said it had a 10 quart pan from PI Motorsports. The pan doesn't look exactly like their pictures but it is definitely not a stock pan.
When I tried to fill it with 9 quarts, it seemed to burn oil.
So, with the oil level at the F mark made per the diagram dimensions, I drained the oil - filter in place. Only 5 quarts came out.
Any ideas on this large discrepancy? Can this pan retain 4 or 5 quarts of oil on a drain? Picture of pan is attached.
Thanks
Norm

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quote:
Originally posted by over50:
I have followed the tread on Fontana Block & Oil Level. Based on the diagrams for dipstick tube and dipstick dimensions, I marked my dipstick for F and A on that basis.
As history, since I bought this car I have had concerns about the correct oil level. I got an invoice that said it had a 10 quart pan from PI Motorsports. The pan doesn't look exactly like their pictures but it is definitely not a stock pan.
When I tried to fill it with 9 quarts, it seemed to burn oil.
So, with the oil level at the F mark made per the diagram dimensions, I drained the oil - filter in place. Only 5 quarts came out.
Any ideas on this large discrepancy? Can this pan retain 4 or 5 quarts of oil on a drain? Picture of pan is attached.
Thanks
Norm


Unless the pan has another sump and drain plug, no it can't hold another four or five quarts of un drained oil. There has been a somewhat ongoing discussion about how much oil these high capacity oil pans actually hold. I am beginning to believe that putting ten quarts of oil in an oil pan that is advertised as a ten quart pan may be too much.
I have the Armondo "10 qt" oil pan. Before installing the pan, I positioned it so that the pan rails were level (front to back and left to right). That should approximate the installed position in the Pantera.

I measured one quart of water and poured it into the pan. I repeated this, one quart at a time until I had nine quarts in the pan.

With nine quarts in the pan, the liquid was at the bottom (under side) of the windage tray.

Your mileage may vary.

John

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Now that you can see the dipstick/tube dimensional diagram, here is why I am confused/perplexed.
I definitely have a PIM pan that looks just like the pictures on their website.
I have calculated volumes it can hold based on measuring the PIM pan.
Based on the dipstick/tube diagram, I marked my dipstick (Sharpie) for F and A. The oil level in the engine happened to be at F.
I drained the oil and got a little more than 5qt. Seemed strange since 5qt in a PIM pan should be lower than in a stock pan which I presume would have less volume per height.
Called PIM. They said that this pan will hold 10qt below windage plate. They recommend filling to 7qt (add at 6qt) for street use. Fill to 10qt for racing. My calcs agree that the pan should hold 10qt below the windage plate.
I slowly filled the pan with oil. Dipstick registered as follows:
1qt - nothing
2qt - drop on tip
3qt - 3/4" up from tip
4qt - 1 1/8" up from tip
5qt - 1 1/2" up from tip (this was also basically my sharpie F mark from before draining)
6qt - 2" up from tip
7qt - 2 1'4" up from tip
8qt - 2 3/4" up from tip (didn't fill higher)

It doesn't make sense that the PIM pan oil level would matching the dipstick diagram dimension marks for a stock pan. I measure about 25" tube length from the block to the end of the tube and my dipstick is the 38" shown length. I measured from the block surface down to the bottom of the pan on a line matching the tube entry angle. I got 15". 25" + 15" = 40". I pushed a stiff wire down the tube and measured about 40 1/2" when it stopped.
This is a lot to digest but a mystery for me.
Norm
I would have done it myself but my SolidWorks license has expired.
I'm attaching a NTS sketch with the basic dimensions. I forgot to put the width on but it is 9". That doesn't account for the slight bump out near the drain plug. The side radii where they exist are about 1"R. The PIM website has good photos of the pan that can be saved to your computer. The dimensions should make sense with the photos. I looks like they take a (stock?) formed oil pan and cut it and weld on flat plate features and the internal parts.
Norm

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I personally would go with what the dipstick says.

The qualification that I would use is that it is verified as a stock Pantera dipstick, original tube AND a stock Cleveland block.

I would test the capacity without changing the filter or filter like you have described above.

You need to keep in mind that normally there would be some oil retained in the heads themselves. How much? That can vary on the cylinder head that you are using since some of the aluminum heads were originally intended as racing heads and some of their designs include retaining oil near the springs since the springs usually need an oil bath to help cool them and reduce spring failure possibilities.



Remember the purpose of the bigger pans. It is to insure that under RACING conditions, you don't run the engine dry of oil and that you want to insure that not only on hard acceleration, deceleration and cornering g-loads.

With a stock Ford oil pan, that is possible at somewhere around 6,000 rpms.

Most clubs that I am aware of will recommend that one additional quart of oil be added to a stock pan for high speed running on a closed track event.

That is a safe consideration on a street car with a novice driver, not a professional race car and driver.

One additional quart above factory recommendations will put the level on the dipstick about 1/2" over the full level.

I've done this dozens of times at dozens of high speed events with novice drivers.

One "over full" quart NEVER hurt anyone on the track.



The issue of whether these pans are either 9 or 10 quarts capacity is a moot point. A half-inch over the full mark on the dipstick is not a serious issue.

A pan UNDER filled in which you are going to run this car for five continuous laps on a race track at as flat out as you can handle IS a serious issue if you run the pan dry.

MOST likely you will spin a rod bearing and that CAN mean you will wind up with a connecting rod failure that likely will get thrown through the side of the block.

If your engine is "burning oil" because it is one quart over filled is not likely. What IS likely is that your engine has OTHER issues.



Certainly a FLASHING RED LIGHT should go off that something is serious out of line if you are only taking 5 quarts to show full on a "10 quart pan".

Part of the issue here is that we are looking at pans of several different aftermarket manufacturers and we apparently are presuming that they are close to identical AND that all the manufacturers are using the same literal terminology. It would seem that the term "10 quart pan" is more of a generic term?

This in my observation is a similar situation as a novice with a "high performance/racing aftermarket" engine running on the street and expecting it to act like a regular street engine and have the same life expectancy as one.

The fact is it can break at any minute and possibly in a catastrophic way. That's why auto manufacturers don't offer "race engines" to the public. Venture into that at YOUR OWN RISK.



Here, experience is golden. It's like a fan coming out of the stands at Dodger Stadium and pinch hitting facing Bob Gibson or similar. "Look out. You can get killed out there". YOU and only you need to know what you are doing.

They are called "bumps of knowledge" but you have to survive them to make them worthwhile. As Billy Joel has sung, "you have no scars on your face". Wink
It's kind of comical reading along as I'm pretty much rookie on mechanical stuff but I always thought basic things like oil change, brake fluid change & coolant change I could handle no problemo. Good thing I rarely take my limited skills to higher levels. Like Clint says, a mans got to know his limitations. Oh, I am pretty much ok with car wax too. But still it's kind of fun working on your own car, as long as nothing blows up in the end.
quote:
Originally posted by DOES 200:
It's kind of comical reading along as I'm pretty much rookie on mechanical stuff but I always thought basic things like oil change, brake fluid change & coolant change I could handle no problemo. Good thing I rarely take my limited skills to higher levels. Like Clint says, a mans got to know his limitations. Oh, I am pretty much ok with car wax too. But still it's kind of fun working on your own car, as long as nothing blows up in the end.


When you are dealing with a modified Pantera and an after market engine combination set up, even getting replacement parts can be a hassle. This has been a very informative thread and some good information came out about the actual capacity of these high capacity oil pans.
Unless I missed it I haven't seen anything about how long the car sat since it's last run when the oil level is checked.

I rebuilt my 944 2.5 NA race motor winter 2016 and a installed an IJ Teflon crank scrapper along with two other 944 race pals.

Checking the level 2+ hours after shut down we are all at the proper level. After a day+ we gain close to .25 quarts on the stick. Our hunch is the zero clearance scrapper is slowing flow into the pan.
quote:
Originally posted by Lyall #6007:
Unless I missed it I haven't seen anything about how long the car sat since it's last run when the oil level is checked.

I rebuilt my 944 2.5 NA race motor winter 2016 and a installed an IJ Teflon crank scrapper along with two other 944 race pals.

Checking the level 2+ hours after shut down we are all at the proper level. After a day+ we gain close to .25 quarts on the stick. Our hunch is the zero clearance scrapper is slowing flow into the pan.


There is oil in the oil passages in the internal oiling system of the block that will drain out eventually.

In a Cleveland I'd be surprised if it was even close to 1/2 qt. though?

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