Mangusta 8MA1088 - What are the casting numbers of the original block and heads

As PanteraDoug says if you want to keep it stock and already have the parts it's simple. He's also exactly right to suggest the original engine was limiting and to build that way may very soon frustrate you (or your customer).

Finally I agree a 220/230 bhp engine revving to 5500 rpm max is a mis match for a car like the Mangusta. But I also feel the 289 /302 engine is one of the best ever made, but only if you let it breath! 

 I race a 65 Mustang and even with all period / iron components a 289/302 engine can put out very good power (over 400bhp) with good torque.

With a stroker kit, 400bhp,is far easier and much cheaper. You may not want to go that far of course or have something modified in that way.

I'm sure many will think it is heresy to talk about modifications! But when modification can easily be reversed to standard specification I do not see that is a bad thing. 

I'm in UK and it's not easy to find 289/302 performance components here but easy to get US companies to ship overseas. Our import taxes are high (adds 30% to US price) but still good value versus modern components.  In fact I know  it is cheaper for me to buy a new set of aluminium heads complete with valves and springs than what I would pay to refurbish the original components.

If you wanted to you could build the bottom end of the engine as a 302 with good balancing and buy a set of aftermarket aluminium heads, a better (but not wild) camshaft, aluminium inlet manifold and decent Holley carb. That would be completely and easily reversible if you wanted to change to standard spec but I would suggest would add at least 100bhp to the standard J code, you would  be able to get the Pistons manufactured to your required compression ratio (for the fuel you have available) and  any good engine builder would be able to build that for you.  It would also lighten the rear of the car which is not a bad thing either and the engine would start to come to life and be very drivable on the street. 

Although a stroker engine like the 347 would be even better for the road from what I know  Japan's roads are crowded, just like UK so I doubt you'd notice much difference and it would be much simpler (and cheaper) with a 302 to return to standard if you wanted to.

and if you do not have some of the original components you could build the modified engine and take your time to find and import the original specification components

something for you to consider

I apologize for no response for a while. I have no time to visit the garage now. Japanese call December Shiwasu, which means December is so busy month that let teacher run. I’m working in high school as a teacher. That’s why I had no enough time to understand and arrange these useful information you gave me until now.

 I talked with friend who owns mangusta about what he wants to do for mangusta. His answer is the first he want to know if this engine has replaced or not. The second is to return the proper engine that was installed in this mangusta.

 Many folks gave me thankful info about difficulties to find the proper parts and keep good condition to run. I understand the difficulty to find out the parts that has the proper cast date, but he doesn’t care the date or the casting of other parts such as head, rod, water pump and so on. He wants to return to the original type of engine block. If the 289 had been installed, he would satisfy. If the 302 had been installed, he would want to return the block to the 302.

 The discussion in this forum may conclude that this mangusta had been built with the 302 block and replaced by some one and some reasons. The reason why we  can conclude is the following

-stamp on intake

-cast date difference between block and other parts

-the fact that no 289 block had been built after july 1968

 The conclusion is almost clear, but let me say why I thought this mangusta was built with the 289 block. The reason why I thought is from the following wiki links, which says the European model was built with the 289 engine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Tomaso_Mangusta

Wiki sometimes includes incorrect information. Is this also inccorect information, isn’t it?

 Anyway My friend must decide if he uses this 289 block or replace it to the 302. I will give hime advice to use this 289 block, because some mangusta had been built with 289 block. It is not a wrong combination. Does this make sense? If he decides to continue using this 289 block, he also wants to replace the cylinder head. What is the best choice for cylinder head? PANTERADOUG said the uses the AFR 1388 heads that give good flow in chamber. Does it need be shaved to have the same chamber volume? And I can find the so-called overhauled cylinder heads in low price in ebay. Is it a bad idea to use them.

 This Thursday I’m going to visit the garage to confirm the engine cast number. I will confirm or look for the block and head cast date, the Det logo. Are there any parts I should confirm. We must step forward to let the mangusta run.

LEEA

Sorry. I don’t know the origin of this mangusta, but I know the reason why the other mangusta in japan you introduced me has a 351 windsor. I happen to know the previous importer of mangusta. This is just coincident. I am in fact the landrover defender owner, which car was bought by him. He works as the biggest landrover defender importer now. I asked him what the original mangusta engine is. His answer was the 289, but he insists to have replaced all mangusta engine to 351 before sale. I don’t know the reason. It would be to add the value in that period, though the genuine engine has more value in this period.

koji tachi posted:

Anyway My friend must decide if he uses this 289 block or replace it to the 302. I will give hime advice to use this 289 block, because some mangusta had been built with 289 block. It is not a wrong combination. Does this make sense? If he decides to continue using this 289 block, he also wants to replace the cylinder head. What is the best choice for cylinder head? PANTERADOUG said the uses the AFR 1388 heads that give good flow in chamber. Does it need be shaved to have the same chamber volume? And I can find the so-called overhauled cylinder heads in low price in ebay. Is it a bad idea to use them.

 

The AFR 1388 heads use a 2.02" intake and a 1.60" exhaust. You can not use the stock pistons with it. The piston needs a larger cut in it to clear the valve head.

The J head will measure out as 53cc's. The AFR 1388 comes with a 58cc chamber. There are two choices to make to maintain the stock 10.3:1 compression ratio.

1) reduce the size of the 58cc combustion chamber of the AFR 1388, or 2) change the piston to reduce the size of the combustion chamber.

You can also use a thinner head gasket such as the Cometec which is .027" thick. The caution there is that you must have a MINIMUM total of .035" between the top of the piston and the bottom of the cylinder head. If you don't, you will get piston to head interference.

My piston is .013" down in the hole and the head gasket is .027" compressed. So I have a total clearance of .040".

You can buy the head directly from AFR already shaved .024". That would make the chamber 54cc. You can't cut that head any more then that. You will be into the valve seat.

After they are cut (milled), then all you have to do is bolt them on. They are a direct replacement with the exception that they will have an adjustable rocker arm. The J heads rocker arms are not adjustable. You just bolt them on.

The J head has pressed in rocker arm studs. The stock valve springs are on the weak side and will only provide enough spring pressure for 5,000 to 5,500 rpm's. If you change to stronger springs, the rocker arm studs will eventually pull out of the head.

You need to change those to the screw in type, that will also make the rocker arms adjustable.

If you buy used 302 iron J heads, make sure that they are marked 4v. Many sellers are selling 2V heads as 4v. They are not the same. The 2V's have larger combustion chambers and will give you something like 8.0:1 compression. They conveniently get "confused" over the C80E castings on the bottom of the head. Both the 2v and the 4v have that same marking. You cannot mill the 2v heads down enough to get 53cc chambers.

Low cost? They are heavy. 55 pounds each. By the time you ship them, then have them rebuilt, and have the pressed in studs changed over to screw in, they won't be cheap.

They have terrible flow numbers stock. 180 on the intake. 80 on the exhaust. IF you were to take them to a professional porter, the best of them are only able to get about 215 on the intakes.

Personally I think, if you want to build an original engine, then you need the original casting dates. Otherwise the engine isn't original to me? 

If you are trying to sell me that car as "original", I want to see pictures of the engine while it is apart and I want to see the casting dates. I'll allow updates like bigger valves, better springs and screw in studs with guide plates but the casting date better be in the correct vacinity ...for me.

Some of the '68 J casting dates are from June and July of '67. For an "original" 'goose, try May or June of '68?

What is wrong with the heads that you have now? Can't they just be rebuilt?

Again. It all depends on what you want. If you are building the engine for resale value, good luck. Every buyer is going to have different criteria. Build the car for driving enjoyment. Let the next buyer grumble about what they don't like. It will always be something and often just a negotiating tactic. No one is going to find a Mangusta just around the corner. No way. Are you building a museum piece that is too valuable to drive?

With a rare car like a Mangusta, you have to buy what is available.

Thank you for your detailed info. we must check the 4v mark on head.

I have to buy what is available will be answer. I understand the difficulty to find the parts that has proper casting date. We living in japan has more difficulty to do so than others like you. It may be impossible. Just what we can do is to make mangusta rebuilt to near original condition within what we can do. I understand the rebuilding cylinder head is an option. I don't know what is wrong in head. Maybe there is few special technicians for ford small block in this area, so I guess that importing the head will be cheaper than rebuilding. Tomorrow I will visit my friend and talk about these issue.

thanks for very useful info!

All 68 302 heads will say 302 on the top, and either 2v or 4v. All will have the number C8OE on the bottom and say 302.

Here are some pictures to illustrate the differences.

Today I visited the friend's garage mangusta engine was stored. The attached is the pics of parts. Surprisingly all parts except block are made in 1968. The crankshaft, though I cannot find out the cast date, has 2M that means maybe for 302 engine.

 Is there a little probability that this engine has been built with these parts initially? Anyway my friend decided to build up the engine using almost all parts. He thought that cylinder head must be replaced due to lots of corrosion. It will occur the water leak.

 We will look for the cylinder head that can fit to this block. Is there any attention before purchase? I should confirm the 4v mark on top.

PANTERADOUG

thank you for your pics. I didn't find out the mark 2v or 4v, but of course this must be 4v. My friend worry about coolant leak due to corrosion. I will buy the head with 4v mark.   

Tachi-san, I see you referring a couple of times in the various posts  to expertise with the "small block Ford" but I do think you should think of rebuilding or modifying things locally rather than trying to source these difficult to find parts and then having them shipped from USA.  

The engine is very simple and easy to work on and tuning is not hard to get good power levels.  To get the really big power on original (period) parts (versus say aluminium heads) is more difficult and expensive but that's not what you need nor what you should aim for.  In 1965 Shelby produced 308 bhp with very little change (basically "bolt on " parts) for the road car Mustang GT350. I agree with Pantera Doug that an additional 100bhp (so 320bhp for a 302) is easy in 2018 and would make a nice street car.

In the same year as the Mustang was released, Honda produced the S800, with 9,000 rpm and roller bearing crankshaft!  So any good engine builder / tuner should be able to help you, and I'm sure that engineering expertise is available to you locally in Japan. 

The head parts like valves etc are easy to source and because the engine is shared with many cars,  people know what works and what doesn't.  The parts are also relatively cheap too.

But the problem you have to source big parts with specific casting dates is that they are not easy to find (even in the US) and so I think you are making your job more difficult but of course, this is your decision.  And because any parts are likely to be located in USA and are very heavy they are not easy to send to Japan even if you do find them.  But if you import just valves, springs, guides, retainers etc they are much lighter so easier / cheaper to send and you can buy these new off the shelf at any time.

Secondly I completely understand the owner wanting to know if the engine block is the original.  But you do have the unique item to your Mangusta (the inlet manifold).  The engine block does not have a unique number, only a casting date that any of the blocks made around that period could have.  Unless someone has a totally traceable history or single ownership I don't think anyone can say their block is 100% original to their car. 

DenisC stated in one of his posts:

"If there is a number stamped on flat area on 302, that block was stamped for a Ford vehicle therefore not the original DeTomaso block".

 have a look there and let us know the actual casting date (should be on a small plate above C5AE 6015E. Also look in the valley area for '289'.   That should tell you if it is the original block and whether 289 or 302.  

I have found the people here on this forum to be incredibly helpful and knowledgable, (far more than me!)  If you, the owner or your engine builder, need any help building or tuning the 289 or 302 you will find help here, definitely.

What I would like to know, and this would benefit Tachi-san too, is if anyone actually knows if whether every European Mangusta was a 289 (your Wiki point) and every (other than Dick Ruzzin's) car was a 302 or whether the 289 engined Mangusta just stopped being made when Ford stopped making 289's.  As I understand it the first year of manufacturer in US were 4 headlight cars but were these all  302's?  Or were the early US 4 headlight cars 289's?  

Is there a specific cut-off date by chassis number when the change from 289 to 302 happened?  I'm not sure anyone knows......... 

I also think you / owner need to work out whether getting the Mangusta on the road is the priority or whether having the original parts are?

Although no-one likes duplicating expense, with the restoration costs of a Mangusta being what they are, changing the heads or even the block when you can source the parts you've decided you want, is not a major proportion of the expense. 

koji tachi posted:

PANTERADOUG

thank you for your pics. I didn't find out the mark 2v or 4v, but of course this must be 4v. My friend worry about coolant leak due to corrosion. I will buy the head with 4v mark.   

Where is the leak in the head located? I initially had no intention of using the AFR 1388 heads. What happened was the left side head developed a coolant leak through the exhaust port.

Normally Ford cast iron is pretty easy to weld using stainless 304 or 308 welding rods. This head just kept getting worse, the more we welded it.

What happens on Ford castings is that there is always a "seam" in the casting. It's as if they pour the bottom in the mold, flip it over, then pour the other side. This results in a visible mark resembling a "seam". Those are weak/thin spots in the castings and can rot through.

The old casting process had no way of xraying the castings and examining if contaminants had gotten into the castings. From what I see, they generally do, and they can have an impurity in the casting, usually the size of a green pea.

You can fill the hole left by the pea dropping out of the casting but it is usually surrounded by additional contaminants like a carbon build up. You have to luck out in being able to remove it to get to the good metal so the weld will stick to the good iron.

I couldn't. The heads are here, and will go with the car in the future but that one head is a gone'r.

The point here though is that these heads are 50 years old. What you/we are seeing as far as rotting through, is going to become more and more common.

This happened in May. I'm still looking for a good 4v head with a close casting date. So far, no good. Lots of 2v heads around though but the 4v heads have dried up recently.

I got tired of waiting and at least for the mean time am using the AFR's. Nothing wrong with just bolting on 100hp even temporarily?

There is an early 4v head on Ebay now for $450. The casting date is from July or August of '67. For me, the date doesn't work, plus, figure on rebuilding it. That's easy $1,000 finished, plus shipping, with the possibility of rotting through as well?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1968-...wCU1Yokcn:rk:32:pf:0

The seller says it's a "non-smog" head, which is true, but the answer is it is from an automatic transmission car. Only the manual transmission cars had the exhausts drilled for the air injection.

The AFR's cost $1,700, in the door. A better deal and a quicker solution for me.

Unless you / owner really want to find 50 year old iron heads and recondition them, I would also consider the AFR heads as a quick and very good alternative.  

Just for fun I put Tokyo Japan into Summit's delivery address  and a pair of AFR heads would be $191 UPS expedited shipping.......!! Plus your import duties.

(be careful which model AFR head you pick, they are a great head for SBF but some are more suited to competition use and you don't need to go too wild on valve size etc).

There is a good and easy to read article on AFR heads, although it's a later engine it's still a 302 and they use a better inlet manifold ( I have a Holley Performer RPM - ported- on my race Mustang as we have to use dual plane and it revs to 7,500 easily, they are $200 plus cost for tuner to port - not a hard job).  

www.hotrod.com/articles/ford-302-v8-engine-buildup/

(I can't seem to post a hyperlink for some reason)

Or Google "AFR Heads Hot Rod Magazine SBF" and it should be top article.  They "bolted on" 100+ bhp and said it was best they'd ever seen from just bolt on heads, no other changes. And this is the AFR Street head, not race. Torque also increase by more than 50 lb ft.

The Mangusta exhaust manifolds are not as good as some (cheap) alternatives but you will need to stay with them and they could knock back performance a little.  The headers they use are pretty good for what they are, but even if the Mangusta headers knock 20-30 bhp off their number it's a strong little engine for just heads and little effort, no real tuning expertise needed.

I doubt you could rebuild your existing heads for $1,600 even if you didn't have to buy a new head.

 PS I don't have any affiliation with any company mentioned above.

v8jet posted:

(be careful which model AFR head you pick, they are a great head for SBF but some are more suited to competition use and you don't need to go too wild on valve size etc).

There is a good and easy to read article on AFR heads, although it's a later engine it's still a 302 and they use a better inlet manifold ( I have a Holley Performer RPM - ported- on my race Mustang as we have to use dual plane and it revs to 7,500 easily, they are $200 plus cost for tuner to port - not a hard job).  

Correct. As stated, you want the AFR 1388. It's a 185 intake runner. All accessories bolt up.

BUT as stated also, you can't run them with stock pistons. The valve relief in them won't accept the 2.02 intake valve.

For a street car, there is little performance difference with the 195 and the 205 UNLESS you increase the cam lift to about .700", increase the cam duration and turn 8,000 to 8,200 rpm.

Those heads also raise the exhaust ports 1/4". It doesn't sound like much but when your headers all of a sudden have clearance issues that were never there before, it's the raised ports. Some cars will need custom headers for that.

You can run them with any intake manifold and carb but if you want to take advantage of them, you need much better then stock and really want a valve lift of .550 or over for the street. More then that and it starts to be a race only engine.

Could he use the 1.90 valve to clear stock pistons?  Do AFR do that size as alternative or only 2.02?

It's just that he sounds more comfortable in not having to do machining or order custom pistons (although if he's rebuilding engine then he may as well)  and like UK he probably has access to higher octane pump fuel than in US, so could even take advantage on that if he wanted to go custom piston route.

On our Mustang 289 race heads we run 1.90 inlet and 1.60 exhaust, we were told by race company in US that there is no point in us going to 2.02 intake as the iron heads and crappy Tri Y manifolds we have to run can't take advantage and heads won't flow enough (same comment as you've made about iron heads). We're also mandated to run to max 7,000 rpm through sealed limiter on MSD box.

May be different for Ali heads which agree are far superior but I wonder if this  might make life easier for him??

Go over to their website, https://www.airflowresearch.com/, and read the specs on each head. I believe the 165 uses the smaller valves. 1.90 intake. 1.60 exhaust.

The best flowing iron 289 vintage heads were the GT40 heads. Those flowed around 240. The 2x4 Holley T/A manifold matched it. That is quite a unique manifold. Nothing exists quite like it. It ran two Holley 735cfm center squirters.

When the Boss 302 heads were introduced, they became a revelation because of their flow potential. In his testing Dan Jones flow tested iron "Cleveland" heads at 296 cfm @.600" lift.

The dyno test that I posted here showed 539 @7,000 with Webers on a iron head 357 "Boss 351".

The iron J heads flow around 180 stock. About 215 professionally race ported. The AFR 1388 shows flow results of 295 @ .550. Using those, you should be able to get similar results to that Cleveland, with similar cubes, similar data?

Induction is another issue.

I chose to go with the T/A 2x4 Holley manifold with two 600cfm 1850 carbs. .550 lift cam.  347 cubes. Whatever the number it's making, I'm happy. It causes quite a scene and adds to this local tale of a crazy old guy in a white Shelby. It's a little like the story of  Washinton Irving's tale of the 'Headless Horseman'. Appearing occasionally late at night on spooky moonlit nights scaring the wits out of the innocent locals? But that's how I get my jollies.

That "T/A" intake carb combination is worth about 50 hp over any single 4v set up that was tested. Webers are pretty well documented at around 80-85hp.

I have no idea what the original 302 4v iron intake and Autolite carb actually do flow but it likely is complimentary to the stock flow of the iron heads, i.e., not much? I'm sure it's likely a huge restriction to making any kind of power expected of even street engines today.

I never did flow testing on that set up and don't recall anyone else publishing information on that? The best "stock" induction that I saw for the J engine is the S7MS COBRA single 4v high rise and the S8MS 600cfm Holley carb for the 68 Shelby GT350. It changed the characteristic of the J engine and made it "sporty".

Acknowledged, building an engine for a Mangusta does raise a bunch of questions that only the present owner can answer. It all depends on what they want out of the engine.

You can also search on Craig's list.

http://craigs-list-search.com/

The problem there is most sellers don't want to ship and want to sell to a local buyer. I have found real "gold" there on occasion and is about as much "under the radar" as you can get.

I love the comment about “headless horseman”!!!  Dead of night, a little mist maybe... I can see the open mouths now!!

As I’m getting my Mangusta to FIA Race spec (to obtain an HIstoric Passport for it) I have a set of 4 x 48 IDA Weber’s about to go on. Will be interesting to see what they do. Although not a cheap option, that is also a “legitimate” specification for a Mangusta (looks amazing too!!) . Tachi, I can send you the specification form if you wish. 

unfortunately FIA also dictate the original headers and i’ll also lose the Ali heads I currently have and must use Pre 69 iron heads flowed as best we can.  Can’t have everything....

PanteraDoug without hijacking this post  too much?  do you have any suggestions on branded headers that would fit into a Mangusta? The Mustang benefitted from some Dougs Headers (D690 YS) which are still TriY but slightly larger diameter and about limit of what regs accept.  Anything equivalent for Mangusta?

Cant wait until my car back together

v8jet posted:

I love the comment about “headless horseman”!!!  Dead of night, a little mist maybe... I can see the open mouths now!!

I usually punch it up a little by adding "long flowing grey hair, rapidly turning to white". Kinda' suggesting a Richard Branford image. In bad light, that's a little disturbing?

Don't forget this is a white "special Mustang" so the image of a mechanical white steed should occur to some too?

On the headers, the originals are a little small but the biggest issue is they have no collectors to speak of. I don't know of any "cheater" 'goose headers but I'd expect there to be some hidden under covers somewhere...not very far away.

It sounds like you don't know, but Curt Voght, owner of Cobra Automotive in Connecticut, did a project of recasting the GT40 iron heads. The 4 bolt GT40 block had already been done.

I'd suggest that you send them an email about these parts. I would have to think those are legal for historic racing since that's what was run in the Cobra and GT40 "team cars" (factory works in Brit English).

Just do a Google search and you will find their web page and contact info. probably: sales @cobraautomotive.com. You will be talking to Scottie.

They race their own built engines. 292 ci., 620hp @8,200 rpm. This on a single Holley and a Bluethunder Cobra intake.

I say he is turning 8,600-8,700 rpm down the straights. Curt says no. 8,200. He even did a You Tube showing the tach.

Curt's dad was a "restorer" of antique items. He made his own parts that were missing. I think of him more as a counterfeiter. Curt followed in his footsteps.

In the You tube, he probably rigged the tac to read 8,200 when it in fact was at 8,700. He gets creative. The harmonics of the engine would suggest a bit more then 8,200.

You want to talk to these guys about an engine or parts to make yours competitive. You won't be sorry.

I do know that they have a "header guy". They might be able to help you with your exhaust issue amongst other things right in house. If you ever are around looking to visit, their workshop looks like the race shop at Holman-Moody or Shelby America did. You name it, there is one of those cars there being worked on. I have to tape my mouth shut otherwise I will just drool constantly.

Webers are certainly a great choice to go with but you need the rest. How fast you want to go, depends on how much you want to/can spend. The entire bunch of them are too fast for me.  I just watch from the sidelines, plus I'd have to stop too many times to pee, from the trauma of scaring myself to near death by going impossibly fast of course? Although I understand that there is an entire new line of adult diapers that you can't notice?

I am reminded that Shelby claimed the Trans-Am, Group 3, Group 4, 289's out of his shop were 360 hp. Technology has really changed.

Definitely! You’d be at the back of the grid in a V8 race these days with that power 

In fact a couple of years back I had a long (and pretty unreal for a Brit) conversation with Larry Ofria who is still at Valley Head Service in Ca who did all the Shelby head porting. So today you could still have same guy do your head porting....unbelievable 

great guy 

Most of the guys I know are dead from not wearing particle masks and breathing all of that grinder/iron dust. Randy Gillis knows most of those guys. Southern California is/was just a mecca for car performance buiding.