Sick Cat,
Thanks for the link and all the specific information you provided
I googled the "WAHLER THERMO FAN SWITCH 823-959-481F75-M5002" in an attempt to determine its settings, but not sure I was getting proper info (I found 75C)
Do you recall and if yours is sensing the radiator inlet or outlet?
Has any one ever measured the radiator outlet temperture for a stock radiator with the car at cruise speed (please state thermostat also)?
I looked those up on those web site's with pelican and that is a different part now as mine have regular spade connectors, interesting,.
As I recall one of the connections, lets say inlet is a certain temp to turn on the flexalite fans and the one on the outlet will turn on the Meriah's up front if the flexalite's quit or are not cooling enough, meriahs rarely come on but when they do between the two sets it's a lot of air. I'll try and dig the info up, I was suprised as it's been a while.
Mark
As I recall one of the connections, lets say inlet is a certain temp to turn on the flexalite fans and the one on the outlet will turn on the Meriah's up front if the flexalite's quit or are not cooling enough, meriahs rarely come on but when they do between the two sets it's a lot of air. I'll try and dig the info up, I was suprised as it's been a while.
Mark
I have an 85 GT5. I would like to replace the radiator. It has recently developed a couple of small leaks and now needs a new core. Is there any differences in the radiator or cooling system on a 1985 versus an early 70s Pantera? Can I follow the advice and in this thread and apply it to my GT5?
I am going to do the modification as George has suggested, my tanks appear to be original and in good shape. The cap on the expansion tank is a Motorcraft RS-77 which I would like to replace but I do not see a replacement or cross reference available. Were the expansion tanks a European style fitting as well as the swirl tank? Is there a recommended replacement for the cap?
If your Pantera's coolant tanks are equipped with the original necks, the way I see it you have two choices. These have been the choices for decades. Keep in mind that the original pressure limit was 13 psi, because the radiator (and heater core) were assembled with solder joints.
(1) You can have the pressure tank's European radiator cap neck replaced by a radiator shop with an American pressure cap neck, and then use an American 13 psi cap (Stant 10329 which has the release lever).
(2) Leave the tank neck "as-is" and use a higher pressure 16 psi cap, which shall operate at a lower pressure (about 2 psi lower) when used with the European neck. I don't have the correct number, but I'll bet it is either 10330 or 10331 (both are 16 psi caps).
Keep in mind that in converting the recovery tank into a head tank that it will operate under a lower pressure, therefore 13 psi shall be serious overkill for its new application as a head tank. There is a good possibility that the standard American radiator cap (Stant 10329), which shall operate at about 11 psi when screwed onto a European neck, would be more than adequate for this job, so long as the cap is in good condition and seals against the radiator neck as it is supposed to do.
What this community of owners needs is for people who have already performed these experiments to chime-in and share their experiences.
(1) You can have the pressure tank's European radiator cap neck replaced by a radiator shop with an American pressure cap neck, and then use an American 13 psi cap (Stant 10329 which has the release lever).
(2) Leave the tank neck "as-is" and use a higher pressure 16 psi cap, which shall operate at a lower pressure (about 2 psi lower) when used with the European neck. I don't have the correct number, but I'll bet it is either 10330 or 10331 (both are 16 psi caps).
Keep in mind that in converting the recovery tank into a head tank that it will operate under a lower pressure, therefore 13 psi shall be serious overkill for its new application as a head tank. There is a good possibility that the standard American radiator cap (Stant 10329), which shall operate at about 11 psi when screwed onto a European neck, would be more than adequate for this job, so long as the cap is in good condition and seals against the radiator neck as it is supposed to do.
What this community of owners needs is for people who have already performed these experiments to chime-in and share their experiences.
When I first bought my car it was a factory system with hood vents and it ran at about 195 and suffered from temp creep. It would continue to creep up one degree at a time until it would boil over at the lights and then boil over at low speed etc... I have incrementally changed my system and can report on each change. At that time I was running the car back and forth to Tampa about an hour from here, the car ran very well and was right at home OTR, it seemed like it didn't even know it was running other than the temp creep. The first thing I did was stolen from David Archabalds Sebring car, I took the vent screen off my hood and left the hole wide open, I then put a ramp in front of the vent hole and it created a low pressure vacuum which pulled out more air. That one mod got a good five degrees which I really, really needed at the time. That single first mod would allow me to run to Tampa for an hour and then make it light to light to the property before it creeped up over 210 and boiled over. After that I built the motor, bought a radiator, did all the tricks, and my car runs cold and happy. I run in the low 180's and even in the summer I seldom need my fan on short trips... My car has not seen 190 in years (shorter trips when it's 1000 degrees in summer) and I have ice cold a/c with the condenser up front, and she's a daily driver ( 3, 4, 5 times week). 425/450 HP
Parts List:
Mccullough Fabricating Radiator (sp)
Spal 16" fan (sucker)
Hood vents w/ramp
SS cooling tubes
Flow cooler anti cavitation water pump, double gaskets
The correct thermostat
and the Head tank mod
This combo is the answer, at least for me. I have not turned my spal fan on since last september...
Parts List:
Mccullough Fabricating Radiator (sp)
Spal 16" fan (sucker)
Hood vents w/ramp
SS cooling tubes
Flow cooler anti cavitation water pump, double gaskets
The correct thermostat
and the Head tank mod
This combo is the answer, at least for me. I have not turned my spal fan on since last september...
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A system that has no leaks and holds pressure will not boil over to OVER 240 F.
An engine boiling over at 213 indicates the system is open to the atmosphere, the cap is not sealing and the system has zero pressure in it.
It is imperative that the Pantera be pressure tested and holds pressure AND THE CAP IS TESTED TO HOLD as well.
This car is one of the first "high pressure" systems like we have in todays cars.
It's normal operating temperature is right around 230 F not 195 F.
IT WAS DESIGNED to run hot NORMALLY.
The fluid level in the pressure tank will normally settle to several inches below the top of the neck.
That is correct function for this car
The most likely scenario in a Pantera running like this is that the wrong cap is on the pressure tank,and there is no pressure in the system.
The description of the temperature steadily increasing and then boiling over is exactly the symptoms of no pressure in the system at all.
Many US made caps will not seal properly to the Panteras European made tank neck.
No one needs to re-invent the wheel here. You need a cap that seals at 13-15 psi and holds that into the system.
50/50 anti-freeze will technically boil over at 252F under those conditions.
You CAN stuff it by running 75/25. That will give you about 10 more degrees on top.
My car even with a 15 psi cap will only hold 13 psi in the system.
The Veglia temperature gauge at some point in the '73 model year was changed from a top reading of 230 to 260 degrees to stop the service complaints that the gauge is pegged on maximum high and is going to boil over.
An engine boiling over at 213 indicates the system is open to the atmosphere, the cap is not sealing and the system has zero pressure in it.
It is imperative that the Pantera be pressure tested and holds pressure AND THE CAP IS TESTED TO HOLD as well.
This car is one of the first "high pressure" systems like we have in todays cars.
It's normal operating temperature is right around 230 F not 195 F.
IT WAS DESIGNED to run hot NORMALLY.
The fluid level in the pressure tank will normally settle to several inches below the top of the neck.
That is correct function for this car
The most likely scenario in a Pantera running like this is that the wrong cap is on the pressure tank,and there is no pressure in the system.
The description of the temperature steadily increasing and then boiling over is exactly the symptoms of no pressure in the system at all.
Many US made caps will not seal properly to the Panteras European made tank neck.
No one needs to re-invent the wheel here. You need a cap that seals at 13-15 psi and holds that into the system.
50/50 anti-freeze will technically boil over at 252F under those conditions.
You CAN stuff it by running 75/25. That will give you about 10 more degrees on top.
My car even with a 15 psi cap will only hold 13 psi in the system.
The Veglia temperature gauge at some point in the '73 model year was changed from a top reading of 230 to 260 degrees to stop the service complaints that the gauge is pegged on maximum high and is going to boil over.
Thanks for all the replies. I'll update when things are up and running.
pics would be nice!
Most informative sticky! I purchased my 73, #5936 a little over a year ago and am just now figuring out the mods. Before I get to my overheating problem let me describe the engine setup. Most notably I have the Magnuson Dual Screw SC with a couple of Weber carbs, jacking the HP up to the mid 500's, I suspect. When this was installed in late 80's, I believe the cooling fans were modified. I have two Perma-kool Blower fans and a third sucker fan on the downstream side of the radiator. The Perma-kools run simultaneously and appear to run all the time. The third sucker fan runs off of temp, as best I can tell.
The balance of the cooling system is in original configuration, radiator (stock), piping, hoses, etc. I have a 16lb pressure cap, seems to be in good shape and holds pressure.
Now for the symptoms. I go for a 30 mile drive on a cool day, temp hovers right at 190 by the gauge and stays there. The next day i go for the same drive and it creeps up to the red line, 235-250F, but has not pegged or boiled over. this doesn't matter if i'm stop and go or if i'm cruising at highway speed, although at stop-and-go it does move a little higher.
Based on this thread, I'm thinking Air in the radiator and/or bad thermostat? Would much appreciate input on what steps to take in order to sort this out.
Thanks - Mike
The balance of the cooling system is in original configuration, radiator (stock), piping, hoses, etc. I have a 16lb pressure cap, seems to be in good shape and holds pressure.
Now for the symptoms. I go for a 30 mile drive on a cool day, temp hovers right at 190 by the gauge and stays there. The next day i go for the same drive and it creeps up to the red line, 235-250F, but has not pegged or boiled over. this doesn't matter if i'm stop and go or if i'm cruising at highway speed, although at stop-and-go it does move a little higher.
Based on this thread, I'm thinking Air in the radiator and/or bad thermostat? Would much appreciate input on what steps to take in order to sort this out.
Thanks - Mike
Based on your symptoms, my guess would be a sticking thermostat
I'm moving this over to a new thread, probably doesn't belong in this sticky. Thanks for the quick response Rocky!
What I'm thankful for this Thanksgiving Weekend besides many other things is having a forum like this and articles like the ones from George Pence to learn from - well written, illustrated and comprehensive!
Very interesting on a 90 degree day car will run in the red 220 but never boiled over.
so I guess there is no problem
where can we get a gauge that goes to 260??
so I guess there is no problem
where can we get a gauge that goes to 260??
Ok, there is a ton of great info in this Topic and I appreciate all who have contributed. Here's where I am on this issue:
1. I want to go with a brass/copper radiator like the Hall.
2. My car has older Flex-a-lite sucker style fans installed now.
3. The radiator from Hall only has about 1/4-3/8th" clearance between the back of the radiator and the bends in the inlet/outlet tubes which is not enough to fit the sucker fans/shroud within.
So what have others done? Do I have to have the inlet/outlet tubes extended? Do I have to forget sucker fans and only use pusher style fans? Do I use the Brassworks total system? Does anyone else here have this Brassworks radiator/fan system installed? It's a bit expensive compared to buying a Hall and even new Flex-a-lite fans but appears to be a quality unit. Steve Wilkinson indicated that the Hall was so much thicker that it would need to be laid down at an angle rather than in the exact same place as the original - I'd rather not if possible.
Trying to follow all the expert advice and great information here from George and others I have ordered the Flowkooler 1648 water pump, the SACC water pump pulley and a new Holley/QuickFuel HR-735-VS carb with annular booster venturis to help. I have already installed the Hall SS pipes underneath, SS bottles in the rear and Gates green line hoses and belts everywhere. I've also added the cut-off valves to the cabin heater. I have installed the correct Robert Shaw 330-180 thermostat (with the hat) and have the brass plate installed, but I'm still getting gurgling and almost regurgitation after even only short drives so I want to complete the replacement of the entire cooling system. I realize there are still more areas to cover, but I wanted to start with what I have done plus the new items mentioned above. I also realize that a very thorough burping of the system after the installation of these parts is a requirement.
Steve W. also suggested that I not install Scott Bell's billet water pump pulley because it would help circulate the coolant too fast through the radiator and not allow the radiator to get the chance to cool the coolant. Sounds reasonable, but others here recommended the pulley so I bought it and it showed up yesterday - thanks Scott for the quick turn around!!
So please weigh in, flame if you must, and tell me what you think.
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all!!!!
If you are going brass, I have the Hall Phoenix big boy in my black car although it had to be laid foreword. Works great. I used to own an orange stock L and it had one in there too & worked real nice till it sprung a leak after many years. I recall my wife assisting to get it out of the car and the thing was pretty heavy (that's what she said lifting it out).
https://www.flickr.com/photos/102810426@N07/12241128314/in/album-72157635769607434/
Does200, thx! Steve W. has a kit to lay forward the Hall radiator without having to weld any new tabs or anything - is that what you used? Also, what about the inlet/outlet tubes on the Hall being too close to the back of the radiator to mount a sucker fan/shroud unit like I have now? My original radiator has been recored at least once and it appears the tubes were extended about 1"+ to accommodate the fans/shroud.
Most aftermarket rads have 1-1/2" straight stubs coming out of the core. Insert short pieces of 1-3/8" Gates Green stripe hose connected to 90 degree adapters with regular hose clamps. 90 degree sweat-solder copper tube fittings in the proper size work well. This allows you to space the 90 degrees out far enough to fit sucker fans. If your rad has formed stubs with 90 degree turns and you want to use the more efficient sucker fans in a shroud, cut the formed 90s off and insert short pieces of hose between the stubs and the 90s. Note- 1-3/8" rubber hose will expand enough with hot water to fit onto 1-1/2" stubs without much effort.
Part of the problem is, due to the body's low nose, the 16" tall Pantera radiator is shorter than- for instance- a 19" tall Corvette rad, both being 26" wide and both engines having similar power dumping about the same heat into their rads. If ANYTHING is off in your combination, many Panteras cannot cope with the smaller stock rad, at least at walking speeds. Once you're moving over about 30 mph, things work as DeTomaso planned. So we increase the water flow rate thru the system with a rad that has much larger tubes inside its core (1"-1-1/2" wide vs stock 3/8" wide), and use 2X or 3X bigger fans that suck 30mph air thru the entire core via a shroud, not just blow (less) air at two circles of the core.
You were asking about the backside on my black car and the water tubes. I have a ton of space back there as shown in the photo. The radiator has brackets welded on it to allow it to lay forward (sorry for the dust - proves I actually drive em haha). As far as brass vs aluminum, maybe you had a bad experience with the aluminum but I have the fluidine in my red 5S and a Ron Davis in my Group 4 for years with no issues (although I don’t do a lot of miles, but do drive in the excessive slow traffic Southern CA heat).
