SS valve mfg's

quote:

Originally posted by LTP: What determines quality other than brand, reputation and experience? The new valves roll around the granite counter top as smooth as a Swiss watch. The stock valve starts to surge when it slows down. I know, not a very scientific measurement for valve concentricity.

simple, effective, you see the difference. a laser-dyno-micro-bobber might not show what you're seeing

i couldn't help but think of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVGXUrKJVCU

adding some pic's

+1

+2

Stainless steel valves need a hardened steel tip, this can be verified with a magnet; the stainless steel stem shouldn't be magnetic but the tip should be.

I'm a little late in mentioning this but if you don't plan on taking the engine over 6200 rpm you don't necessarily need to upgrade to single groove valves, valves designed for the OEM 4 groove locks are good for service up to 6200 rpm. The important thing is to eliminate the OEM valves which have a nasty habit of failing while the engine is running. 4 groove valves can be sourced from Speed Pro or Melling. Speed Pro doesn't currently have a listing for 2.19 intake valves, but Melling does. Both have listings for the 1.71 exhaust valves.

Do Melling and Speed Pro make their own valves or are they getting them manufactured at the same place as everyone else. I read on another site (so it must be true) that Eaton, in where ever, makes Manley's off the shelf products as well as other "house" brands like these EPN valves I purchased.
I still plan on weighing and measuring these valves and report back.
Monty

The actual sources vary. The EPN valve is a top quality one. I run them myself in all of my engines.

I haven't found a problem with them yet but never say never I suppose?

Most sub-contractors are not in the US. Some previous locations are Israel and Argentina.

The EPN company is currently Ted Standhope who is in Washington. He repackages valves that come from a company located in Las Vegas. I don't know if they manufacture there or if the buy from overseas manufacturers.

Thanks Doug
Your comments give me more confidence. I did take a magnet to the EPN valve . The magnet was attracted to the tip but not the rest of the valve. This magnet was able to lift the stock intake valve off the counter but not the exhaust. The exhaust valve does have a steel tip as is clear visually and with the magnet however, the magnet could not lift the ex valve off the counter which indicates stainless I guess.

They are not cheap crap. I was told that they are made by the same people who make Ferria valves but I like the additional cut back stems for a little more flow around the stem.

I used to know the alloy of the stainless? I think it is 21-n which is used for the severe duty racing valves.

That market is so competitive that they stab each other in the back all the time and because they are manufactured overseas don't have exclusive rights to any on special brand names.

FYI, EPN told me they ARE made here in Las Vegas but there is so much of the "alternative facts" syndrome, that it is confusing.

Bottom line, you have what are PROBABLY the best valves you can buy.

In the "old days" we would just copy as best we could of what the big name drag racers would do.

They blew up everything under the sun and whatever they found to be the most dependable was the way to go. It saved a lot of expensive experimenting and actually educated us pretty well.

It was always amazing to me that a guy like Bob Glidden was just a regular mechanic working at a Ford dealer in his regular day job? It just adds to my confidence in questioning authority or guys at the top.


Incidentally, those valve guides are used by just about every aftermarket head manufacturer. I think they are the best available and use them too.

Hopefully Ted at EPN will start to go through his leftovers bin and make some sets of 11805EPN ex valves. He still has another 72 of the intakes for anyone who is interested.
Ted says he is retired but still has a patent on the guides. His son runs the business and is in to mostly Toyota stuff now.

Ah! The source of both the guides and the valves is a company in Las Vegas called Precision Engineering.

Ted buys the parts from them. He doesn't make them or have them made.

Check out their web page.

http://www.precisionengineparts.com/

is Ferrea 5045 the right number?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ferre...AOSwXtNaWgUm&vxp=mtr

I don't have their application chart, so I don't know if those are the valves that you want? Perhaps George does?

I used the EPN valves both intake and exhausts. I would say that they probably are the proper application with the possible exception that since the valve train is being modified from original, I find that using +.100" tips as very helpful.

Those appear to be standard tip length. Not the +.100 length tips.



If you don't know what that means, it means that the valve is longer above the valve locks. This means the tip sticks up higher and enables you to choose from a variety spring retainers, or more correctly various offset retainers and not have the rocker arm tip pushing on the retainers rather then the stem of the valve. That tends to be the case with stock length valves.

Using the +.100 enables you to assemble the spring height to specifications in order to retain the designed geometry for the rocker arm position as well.

So since essentially you will be using big block (either Ford or Chevy) valve springs, and those are designed for 1.88" assembly heights. The spring for the Cleveland is assembled at 1.82" height.

Usually this also means that you need to cut down the original cast in valve seal towers and you will be using something like the pc teflon seals.



Sounds complicated but it isn't, just lots of details to consider and using the +.100 stems helps or more correctly stated, makes it possible to do this correctly. Both the valve locks and the spring retainers are also available in +.100 offsets to enable you to get the correct assembly heights with other then stock components. Hum? Maybe it is complicated?



YOU need to check for that detail on the Cleveland valves since it isn't often stated whereas with the small block Fords and Chevys it almost always is offered as an option.


IF you intend to do the assembly yourself, you should cut the seats with three angles and the valves also, plus you need all of the cutters and personally I would cut out much of the cast in valve guide in the pockets and go with the bronze pressed in guides.



If you are willing to travel a little to get the heads done right, take them to Joe Lapine at Danbury Competition in CT. IF there is a Cleveland expert in this section of the country, he's him.

He can flow them for you too.

it does get complicated, what doesn't?

another number 5145 different diameter & back-cut

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ferre...AOSw86JaWfxk&vxp=mtr

5045 = 1.71" = 12 Deg Under Cut-Dish Head

5145 = 1.76" = 9 Deg Flo-Dish Head

plus length exhaust valves are only available in Competition Plus series
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ferre...AOSw86JaWfxk&vxp=mtr

not sure on intake, possible a 5000 or 6000 series BBC valve will cross over with the desired length?

is the 1.76" diameter a deal breaker in a serviceable factory seat,
does the valve need to be reduced or the seat opened up?

quote:

Originally posted by 4V & Proud:
it does get complicated, what doesn't?

another number 5145 different diameter & back-cut

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ferre...AOSw86JaWfxk&vxp=mtr

5045 = 1.71" = 12 Deg Under Cut-Dish Head

5145 = 1.76" = 9 Deg Flo-Dish Head

plus length exhaust valves are only available in Competition Plus series
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ferre...AOSw86JaWfxk&vxp=mtr

not sure on intake, possible a 5000 or 6000 series BBC valve will cross over with the desired length?

is the 1.76" diameter a deal breaker in a serviceable factory seat,
does the valve need to be reduced or the seat opened up?

You probably can't use a 1.76 exhaust valve. It depends on the space that is left between the existing valves.

It also depends on the accuracy of the location of the existing valve guides. Most production heads vary from cylinder to cylinder on the location.

For instance, on my 302 Ford heads I enlarged both the intake and the exhaust. The new intakes are 1.94 and 1.60, intake and exhaust.

About half of the cylinders had the guides located where a 2.02 intake would fit, half not.

As far as enlarging the valves, it isn't just the size of the valve that increases flow, you need to open the pocket under them the corresponding amount.


When you get in to the assembly and modification of the heads, it's fun. I wouldn't use the term "complicated" but maybe "exacting" is closer to the facts?

You need to remember that Ford "cut" the heads to use production parts, a low lift, low duration camshaft and with the exception of the Boss 351, never intended even the CJ to turn more then 5500rpm.

What everyone is doing is providing for more cam lift, more air flow through the ports and substantially more rpm.

The Cleveland heads are up to the challenge with relatively little modification. The one exception to that is the bad exhaust port.

The cast iron heads are also much easier to work on then the aluminum ones are. The aluminum just clogs all the cutters, stones and sanding drums.


One of the current advantages is that all of these valve brands are FAR superior to the originals as are the balancers, not to mention roller rocker arms, etc.

It's really easy to unleash the original intent of the 4v Cleveland as a true high-performance/race engine as the original design intended.

so the 1.76" offering may be more 385 series

You can use any valve in any engine if you can make it fit.

They are a little like tires. Those are made in various sizes and you apply them to your application.

A 1.71 exhaust valve for a 5.7 L engine is already huge. MANY of the later aluminum racing heads reduce the size to 1.60 to 1.65, but not all.

The same with the 2.19. Some go down to 2.05's.

The original valve sizes in the Boss 302 and the Cleveland are actually 427 valves with reduced stem diameters.

Dan Jones testing showed that the 4v heads flowed 298 cfm at .600" lift with just a nice 3 angle valve job.

My A3's show 330. They actually outflow the capability of only 357 ci.

You don't need bigger valves in this engine.

I finally got around to weighing valves at the local grocery store.
11800EPN 2.19" intake valve 126g. SI Silverline 1816 1.71" exhaust valve 104g. FoMoCo intake 141g. FoMoCo exhaust 124g. Interestingly the new valves slide "sort of" snuggly inside the EPN valve guides I purchased. The FoMoCo valves will not fit. I tried measuring the stems with a digital caliper but it was all over the place. A proper micrometer would be in order. Regardless, the valve stems on the new valves are slightly smaller and would not work in the stock head unless valve guide liners were installed and honed.
The weights of my new SS valves are similar to the Racemaster series but I'm not sure if this means anything other than, same sized valves made from similar stainless will weigh close to the same...Or the valves are all made in the same place.
I'll have to wait and see if this was a horrific blunder, I doubt it, or a non event.

quote:

Originally posted by LTP:
I finally got around to weighing valves at the local grocery store.
11800EPN 2.19" intake valve 126g. SI Silverline 1816 1.71" exhaust valve 104g. FoMoCo intake 141g. FoMoCo exhaust 124g. Interestingly the new valves slide "sort of" snuggly inside the EPN valve guides I purchased. The FoMoCo valves will not fit. I tried measuring the stems with a digital caliper but it was all over the place. A proper micrometer would be in order. Regardless, the valve stems on the new valves are slightly smaller and would not work in the stock head unless valve guide liners were installed and honed.
The weights of my new SS valves are similar to the Racemaster series but I'm not sure if this means anything other than, same sized valves made from similar stainless will weigh close to the same...Or the valves are all made in the same place.
I'll have to wait and see if this was a horrific blunder, I doubt it, or a non event.

You need to install the guides first, THEN run a reamer through them to get the correct clearances.

The stem of the valve is made to fit with the correct clearances inside the reamed guide.

Very often when you press the guide in, it will be a little out of round from the process. After all, the hole in the head should be .500". The guide .501-.502, which is an interference fit.

That squashes the quide just a hair in order to hold it in place. That's why you need the reamer also.

Incidentally, PRESS them in. Don't HAMMER them in. That will peen over the tip of the guide.


IF after you install the guide AND after you ream it, the valve stem won't go perfectly through or hangs up just a bit, then the valve stem is bent. Throw that one away. It can't be used or repaired. It needs to be perfect out of the box.

Also, you should not be able to wobble the valve from side to side in the guide. It has to ride perfectly within the guide.

Use a drop of oil on each stem during assembly. It won't hurt anything, but just a drop.

You are also going to regrind the seats in the heads after you install the guides. The stone pilot has to ride perfectly in the guide as well.

The pilots for the stones are made in 11/32, 11/32 + .001", and +.002".

Only grind the seats the minimum that you can and use lapping compound so that you can see how the valve sits in the seat, and measure them with a dial caliper until you get the width that you need.


As far as the weight of the valves themselves, the EPN's are ok with their weights. What the race teams do these days is use a reduced diameter valve stem of either 7 or 6mm.

Those are best left to pure race engines since they will bend much more easily then an 11/32" will AND if you float the valves even momentarily you will probably reduce the entire engine to a pile of expensive rubble.

Even titanium valves should just be used in a race engine that gets torn down virtually after every race.

The titanium is softer then a steel valve and the stems will have an accelerated wear.

There IS a coating for the stems that HELP in adding not even miles to their life, it's measured in HOURS like an aircraft engine is, but that coating is factory installed so best just put them on the shelf for everyone to play with and handle and ooo and awe at?


If all things are given equal, i.e., same size, same materials, the weights are going to be virtually the same. One thing that can affect the weight is the length of the stem. There are at least two lengths that I am aware of and those are standard lengths and +.100". The plus is so that there is more room above the valve locks and spring retainers for the rocker arm tip clearance.

Years ago Chrysler and Ford reduced the weight of the valves in the Hemi and the 427 by making the stems hollow and filling them with sodium.

I don't know about the Hemis but in the case of the Fords the engines AFTER headers would be installed would develop brittleness in the stems PROBABLY because of the cool air getting to the valves because of the freer flowing exhausts? As a result the stem would snap and the engine would drop a valve into the cylinder resulting in a cracked combustion chamber, a bent connecting rod, and usually a cracked block cylinder wall.

That idea was just a little bit of an engineering oversight?