I drive my car every day and have been driving it about 18 years. My car has done this 3 times during that time period, once it was my ignition switch ( Thank you SOB/Sweet Ol Bill!) and twice it was my MSD module. Good luck w it!
Yup on both but USUALLY with both it is a starting issue.
Fans ran for the 30 miles?
Yes, PIM set it up so fans come on when I turn the key to acc... or at least one fan I think.
So there is a fan running constantly! Why ??????
He said that’s how he’s always set up all the cars they do.
Why did PIM connect your fans so one comes on when the key is turned to ACC? Are you OK with that? Do the fans (or the fan) turn off when you're cranking the starter? My feeling is, no fans should turn on until the engine is running. You shouldn't have a rad fan on when you're cranking the starter. The fan just draws a bunch of current away from where it's needed. You might be able to get away with it, with stock fans but not with high amp draw aftermarket fans.
Also, both of your rad fans should be thermostatically controlled. What possible reason could there be to leave one fan on all the time? Will your car overheat if you don't? Ridiculous.
You now have an intermittent electrical issue that started immediately after PIM worked on your electrical system. Coincidence? Possibly but not likely.
My 2 cents!
When you say lost all power does that mean everything, lights, radio, heater etc or just power for the run circuit i.e. gauges?
Everything. No accessories, windows, etc.
look at your connections to the ammeter and also the connections to the ignition switch for signs of heat. The switch itself could also be the problem.
As Marlin Jack and others have said, GROUND, GROUNG GROUND. Check all the ground connections from the battery to chassis and chassis to everything else. I had a headlight issue with a limit switch. I would pass the contenuity test but failed to work. Once I replaced it the issue went away.
Ken
I will also add that grounds are the root of all evil. I also never run my fans while in motion, my car runs about 184/186 and I only need my fans if stuck in traffic (Florida). Your oil must be 159 at minimum so you def need some heat.
I personally don't think anyone should be on an amp gauge anymore.
P.S... The only reason I mention my experience is to add a data point and to illustrate that this car is a good car. I stretch the throttle cable every time I drive it, it has all the updates and it's a very good and reliable car. Granted, I just drive into town and back most days, but still, it's treated me very well.
Let’s not lose sight of the fact, this problem arose immediately after a vendor (PIM) did some electrical work on the car, including connecting one of the cooling fans to the ACC position of the ignition switch (???). It’s highly unlikely this problem has nothing to do with the work that was done. They were paid to do the work and they did something wrong. They should stand behind their work and fix it.
Once this matter has been resolved, I highly recommend the Pantera Electronics cooling fan controller. Your fans will turn on when needed but only when they’re needed! Also, their controller uses PWM to control fan speed, so they only spin as quickly as they need to.
Pantera Electronics fan controller and/or any of Jon's products.
I'm going to contact PIM today about this, but I'm not holding my breath that they will fix this for free.
I do have the PE updated fuse board and really like it. I have a friend who's going to help me get the fans wired so they don't start up on ignition too, even though that's not the culprit it might help.
If ALL power goes out, investigate for a circuit breaker that resets itself, like an "all car" fuse would.
@Riley posted:Everything. No accessories, windows, etc.
What about lights? Accessories and windows are fed through the ignition switch. If no lights also then look into main power connections, if lights still work (note that headlights will not open without accessory power so check tail lights) then most likely the ignition switch or connections at the terminal strip at the switch.
If you still have the original ammeter, check the connections.
If the ammeter has been removed, check the wire splice (the two wires that originally connected to the ammeter will be spliced together).
Check the battery terminal connections and the battery ground wire where it connects to the body in the front trunk.
John
...I agree with Panteradoug and JB1490...could be a Isolating Circuit Breaker, for ALL Systems. And, Who Installed the Custom 'Fuse Block', that is suspect, could be one or two wires Not connected correctly. I, also, had the problem with the AMP Gauge, 'Very' Loose connections!! Long since, removed, Cables spliced Together with a Bolt!, Shrink-tubed with INDUSTRIAL/Thicker Shrink Tubing, Two Layers...and a VOLT Gauge added. You need to Learn HOW to Use the VOM. Check ALL Grounds, Including the 6-8 wires, To a Stud, just above Your left Knee, under the dash. And check the Ground to the chassis, AT the Battery, as others have suggested!!. The Ignition SWITCH, could be 'Shorting-out', usually Burned-Out, Internally!!!
I still think the 'One' Fan was wired to the Ignition Circuit!! Check that 'White' Junction Block just above the Steering Column! That would also mean...the ignition, Also, was wired to the ACC position of the Ign. Switch.
...Get out the Volt Meter and start Investigating!
Good Luck!
MJ
P.S. Just a Thought, what about the 'Major' Ground strap going from the Chassis to the TAIL of the ZF Gearbox?? That 'Woven' Thing is always seen corroded and Rotting! That strap is the ONLY Link Grounding the Engine to the Battery, through the Chassis. And Last, the Headlights DO NOT work when the Ignition Switch is TURNED-OFF!!
I beg to differ, headlights work with ignition off but they will not raise or lower.
Since we are discussing the realm of the weird, let me add this tidbit.
I recently had a new battery in which the positive terminal was broken internally in the battery.
It would cause symtoms very similar to what is happening here. I stumbled upon this by accident, just going through the basics for the umpteen time.
I changed the battery and all was good with the world again...but it has symptoms of a circuit breaker resetting itself after it cools down.
Ha! Never heard that one before. To the earlier question, I had wired in the PD fuse box myself, and PIM found and fixed a couple of my not-so-great connections when they did the headlight motor; so I was at fault there. They said they also fixed and cleaned up all the wiring in the console (some of which was mine, so of which was there before me). I don't know what they wired into the ignition switch though... but sounds like the fans are directly wired into it if they are turning on with the key, right?
I replaced my ampmeter with a voltmeter but could never get it to work; PIM fixed that in the last round of work.
As for headlights, I'm pretty sure mine raise and work regardless of key in the ignition... but now I'm not sure. Will check when I get home.
As originally wired, there is a lot of amperage running through the ignition switch.
You can reduce it to a reasonable level by using the Pantera-Electronics ignition switch controller.
In summary :
- you replaced the fuse panel and you made mistakes
- you replaced the ammeter with a voltmeter which did not work,
- you are not sure of the operation of your headlights or that of the fans
- you don't know what the ignition switch controls and which devices have a relay
- you are ready to replace your alternator without having any certainty that it is the fault
-then it will be the turn of the battery because Panteradoug had a problem with his
- you go looking for a heat protection device that resets itself without even knowing if there is one in your car
- ......
All this shows that you are not an electrician at all and have no training in troubleshooting research. It's not a criticism at all, everyone has their own skills, but in these conditions stop looking without method, in all directions at the same time, taking inspiration only from "mine did the same and it was.... .". Leave your car with a professional, PIM or another, because don't forget that a faulty electrical circuit can not only create breakdowns but also set the car on fire and in the end, if the professional is honest it will cost you less.
Further to what Rene wrote above: this problem arose immediately after you had a bunch of electrical work done by PIM. Do they know what they’re doing? If so, how do you know? Keep in mind, one of their mods was questionable at best (cooling fan always “on”). If they won’t (or can’t) fix the problem, flat deck or trailer the car to Don Byars. There are others but I have first hand experience with Don, so I’m happy to recommend him.
Riley,
It seem the issue started after someone did a repair procedure on your car. Not blaming the repair facility, just stating that makes common sense to start there. Also, you mentioned there are other Pantera owners close to you (met up with them one morning for a drive when your car failed in the parking lot). Maybe have them all over and collectively trouble shoot your car. You never know, someone may know or stubble onto the issue. If nothing else, it makes for a fun time to spend with fellow owners. I know how frustrating these situations are and the lack of confidence you can acquire in your car during these types of unexplainable issues. I would maybe call Sharkey at Pantera of Miami and explain what is going on and see if he has had an experience like yours. If not Sharkey, anyone that works on these cars. Good luck, stay the course, you will find it eventually.
Thanks everybody for all the help/suggestions. I'll let you know when it eventually gets fixed, and what the problem was.
@Mike A posted:Riley,
It seem the issue started after someone did a repair procedure on your car. Not blaming the repair facility, just stating that makes common sense to start there. Also, you mentioned there are other Pantera owners close to you (met up with them one morning for a drive when your car failed in the parking lot). Maybe have them all over and collectively trouble shoot your car. You never know, someone may know or stubble onto the issue. If nothing else, it makes for a fun time to spend with fellow owners. I know how frustrating these situations are and the lack of confidence you can acquire in your car during these types of unexplainable issues. I would maybe call Sharkey at Pantera of Miami and explain what is going on and see if he has had an experience like yours. If not Sharkey, anyone that works on these cars. Good luck, stay the course, you will find it eventually.
As if finding the origin of a breakdown was luck or chance!!!! Why not ask a voodoo wizard for help too?
Finding a breakdown requires knowledge and method, everything else is like playing a lottery, it can work.......
What is the going shop rate for a good voodoo wizard these days? Maybe mobile service where he comes to my garage?
IMO, hourly shop rates are somewhat meaningless. What matters is how much work the technician can accomplish in an hour. That's why taking your Pantera to a shop that specializes in Panteras should make financial sense. You aren't paying for someone to do a bunch of "head scratching" while they figure out the Pantera's peculiarities. Mind you, Pantera shops come and go too. Luckily, the Pantera community is pretty tight, so the bad ones disappear quickly. That being said, make sure you get a few positive referrals before you commit to a big job.
A long time ago, I asked Don Byars how long it takes him to completely disassemble a Pantera that drove into the shop. I don't remember the exact number but I remember being "blown away" by how quickly he could do it. That's what happens when all you do is work on one particular model of car for 40+ years!
If you live in the LA area, you have PI, Wilkinson, and Byers to choose from. Hall no longer works on the P. Lance Nist is an electrical genius but is also no longer working on cars either. If it were me, I would CALL PI and discuss the problem with them and seek their response. It sounds like the car went to them with electrical issues and their work may of disturbed something else (which is where I suggested you start looking at the beginning) not to mention they wired a fan to always run which is NOT correct. If you no longer want to engage PI, then I would go to one of the other two, but both are probably backed up for months but you would need to call each and discuss the problem. The LAST thing I would do is to take it to someone unfamiliar with the P and its unique wiring, unless you have a good referral and a shop that works on exotics. V's performance in Orange does a lot of GT40 builds, etc. They may be willing to get involved. Unless you are very skilled at auto electrical systems, trying to diagnose this further is akin to asking a dentist to pull a tooth over the phone. Shop rates are at least $100 an hour and it sounds like you are into it for a grand plus whatever parts may now be toasted.
Last I heard, Wilkinson just primarily sells parts, I've used Tommy Hodges who's also in SoCal and he's been great but he also told me he doesn't really deal with electrical issues. I also heard Byers was not working on cars anymore because of health issues...
Wilkinson is doing work. I do not know how much but a posted on this forum just had them rebuild a ZF. CALL him.
All Don Byars does is restore and maintain Panteras. That's his business. He doesn't sell parts, although if you're an existing customer, he will. I'm not sure what you mean by "health issues" but you may be thinking of his brother Bob, who passed away a few years ago.
Don was experiencing health issues David. Posts on the FB group site run by Dave Adler a few months ago.
I heard through the grapevine, think it might have been my painter (he is a good friend of Don's) is that he was in a hospice with lymphoma and his apprentice is doing the work now. Maybe just a rumor, I don't know.
@Riley Don Breyers is having some health issues but his new business Partner is Greg. They are doing service work now. I would call Greg and take my Pantera there. They are one of the best. Larry
@Riley posted:So I replaced the fuel filter yesterday, and it was pretty bad. Drove the car for about 20 min to lunch and home, and no issues. Seemed like that was the issue. Then this morning, was supposed to meet our local Pantera group, and the car made it 30 miles no problem, and then while I was just pulling in to park, the car dies. This time I noticed that all the electrical died as well. Started back up, then died... and now no power at all. Luckily was there with a couple other Pantera guys, and they were able to help me push it into a safe parking space while I waited for a tow. After 30 min, the tow arrived and I was able to start it enough to drive it on the tow truck.
After discussing with the guys with me, it seems like it's really electrical. PIM just installed new Fluidyne radiator with their dual fans setup, and we're wondering if it's pulling too much power. My headlight motor burned out the first day I got it back, as well as the electrical connections with my gauges were overheating... which they had never done before. Then PIM fixes those issues, and now this.
I ordered a new coil per all the suggestions here, but we were also talking maybe I need a new 3-wire alternator to handle the much more powerful fans. Thoughts?
I think you should check your ignition switch. Sometimes when they start to fail, it will cause a stalling or shut down issue.
Riley, I have worked with every wire and electrical system in Panteras. Below is a photo of a wiring harness that was out of the car that I restored to factory specifications before reinstalling it. I am away the next two weekends and could come to your place after that and hopefully help you fix it, assuming the problem can be reproduced. Let me know if you still need help after February 12. I could come over before then during the week but you are probably working and there are traffic challenges to get to and from your place.
