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Yesterday, on the way to a show, I was getting off the freeway and the car died coming off the offramp... started right back up and it was fine for the next mile or so to get to the show. Then on the way home, about to go on the freeway, it died... then started back up, but then died again on the freeway. Thankfully, was able to pull over to the side. I tried starting and it just felt exactly like I was out of gas even though my gauge said 3/4 full. I figured my gauge was bad so got some gas in it, and then it started up again... and then died about 500 feet later. Was able to make it home (literally coasting into my driveway) after about ten stops and starts. And at one point, had to let it sit for about 10 min before it would start. Voltage is fine, cranks fine, just won't start.

Any advice? I went under the car and checked the fuel pump (mechanical) and it didn't seem like it was leaking (per advice from somebody smarter than me). Warning, although I've done brakes, suspension, etc.. I am not as well-versed in engine/fuel mechanicals as most of you, so I apologize ahead of time for stupid questions/replies. Thanks.

P.S. I just had a lot of work done that included new dual fans, aluminum radiator, a bunch of electrical work in the console/gauges. I have no idea if that has anything to do with what's happening... but my headlight motor also died after all that work. Maybe a coincidence, but just to put it out there.

Last edited by Riley
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@Riley posted:


P.S. I just had a lot of work done that included new dual fans, aluminum radiator, a bunch of electrical work in the console/gauges. I have no idea if that has anything to do with what's happening... but my headlight motor also died after all that work. Maybe a coincidence, but just to put it out there.

Did the car run fine for awhile following all this work and just now started having problems? Possible ignition issue, especially considering the work in the dash.

...My first thoughts:

Fuel Pump, Clogged Fuel Filter, Clogged Main Jet(s).

Fuel Tank NOT Vented.

* Vapor Lock, Fuel Line to close to Header, or Carb Needs Heat Insulator.

Coil Bad, Points Closing-up-Burned (if the dist. is using points) Bad Condenser/Capacitor. COIL wired in REVERSED Polarity.

Spark Plug Wire(s), Coils High Tension wire, Shorting to Ground (May cause Backfiring).

Bad/Burned Ignition Switch...Bad Ground to All Ignition points.

Headlight Motor Wired 'Incorrectly' into the Ignition Circuit.

Bad/Failing Alternator/Voltage Regulator

There Are Tests for all of these conditions.

Very Glad You did not get Stalled In the Middle of the Freeway!!

Good Luck with it.

MJ

Last....If the Rad. Fans were to be wired, by Mistake and Incorrectly, into the Ignition circuit, everytime a Fan came ON, the Ignition would shut down.

Last edited by marlinjack

I had such a problem, Riley. Turned out to be a burned coil, such that when the coil was cool, the wires on the primary would be fine but when it got warm, they separated, broke contact and -no spark. When it cooled off the cycle repeated.

The fix was to throw the can-of-oil coil across the road into the woods (optional) and install a solid-state coil that was OEM from a newer Ford. It looks like a transformer. If thats it, you'll need to change your small coil wire ends from ring-connectors to male spade lugs. You don't need Ford's expensive molded plastic plug body.

A second possibility, if your car is a '71-72 with the early fuel tank, is a varnished fuel filter inside the tank where its not service-able.  You reach in thru the fuel sender hole with a wooden (non-sparking) stick and RIP the cloth filter off the welded end of the fuel feed line..If you have a ;73-up, there's a fuel filter clipped on the end of the fuel line. To R & R it, remove the sender and snap it off.   Autozone sells them for less than $5.

The original configuration of the Pantera fuel tank has a fuel tube pickup that is welded to the interior of the tank and is separate from the fuel gauge sender.

It is steel. It has the tendency of rusting through at certain points along the tube. Most common is around 1/2 tank level but there is no guaranty where that hole in the tube could develop or when. That would effect the fuel pumps ability to siphon fuel through the tube because the hole would break the vacuum.

The only way to test for certain would be to set a separate pump, independent of the engine, and see if you get flow through it.



Mine rusted through at 1/2 tank. The car would run no problem with a fuel level above 1/2 tank. Then die at that level.

There is a replacement for the pickup tube that is part of the fuel level float sender. I installed that and it corrected the issue.



The other thing to check is that the tank vent is open and not clogged or closed. The original filter element used in the factory vent is a little funky and can clog due to age. That one I believe is riveted on. You would need to drill out the rivets to remove it.

If it is the original supplied on the US delivered cars you might want to put in the later type that has roll over check valve built into it?





On my car the factory charcoal fume filter is long gone so I vent to the atmosphere. It originally was connected to the tank vent and then breaths into the factory air cleaner. I've never heard of one clogging but it is part of the tank venting system and they were serviced new. The car is 50 years old now. So who knows it's lifespan?



Any one of these scenarios could cause no fuel to get to the engine.

Last edited by panteradoug

My bet is that your coil is on its last legs.  When it heats up past a certain point it fails and then when it cools off past a certain point it starts working again. These points are not precise which would account for the differences in wait time to restart and drive time to the next failure. If it was me I would change the coil first before checking other things.

I agree with Doug- it is likely an intermittently failing coil. A large number of carb problems are really electrical and the symptoms are the same.

One thing I forgot- if it does turn out its the internal fuel 'sock' fully varnished closed, do NOT use an air compressor into the fuel-out line to 'blow it off the end' or rupture it, as a few owners have tried. Ridiculously low air pressure will instantly turn the complex fuel tank into a big steel doughnut that will never again fit in a Pantera, or else rupture a seam. Our tanks are made of dangerously thin steel. They're only a couple of pounds heavier than the aluminum tanks found in unmolested  pushbuttons. Good luck-

Before going all over the place from "mine did the same and it was ....." already start by knowing if it's a fuel or ignition problem.
So, when it has just died, remove a spark plug and see if it is dry, which indicates a fuel problem, or wet which indicates an ignition problem.
To confirm, you reconnect the wire to it, you press it against an unpainted metal part of the engine, you operate the starter and see if there are sparks. It's much easier to do with someone's help.
If there are good quality sparks, ie blue, you can eliminate all electrical faults and search in the essence circuit. If there are no sparks, or of poor quality, i.e. orange or white then you can look on the side of the coil, connections etc...

Well, I agree with everyone. Our cars are really a Mustang in better clothing, and  what a hell of a ride. This is all basic trouble shooting to an issue that every car  from the 60's & 70's have. That is why I have one. No computer to throw out the window. Granted the newer stuff is great and reliable, but when it isn't then AAA is needed. I like the old carb and points that will at least get you home.

Ken

Have you checked your distributor cap? I had a similar issue last year. Had a nice drive and car was running great. Was at a redlight and when I turned it cut out on me. Restarted, but cut back out after 100ft. Had to get it flatbedded home, which wasn't a couple miles thankfully. Turned out the distributor cap was bad, the center carbon button was all but gone. This in turn must have taken out the MSD box. Replaced both & running great since. The coil tested good, but I replaced it anyway. 

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I didn't check anything else because, frankly, I was so annoyed by the car that I just put it up on the quickjack and went inside to enjoy the rest of my Sunday in front of the TV, haha! Unfortunately, with work, I may not be able to really look/test anything until the weekend. But all these posts give me a lot of research to do.

You said you just had a ton of work performed on the car including electrical work and now your headlights don’t work.  I would start there with that as the culprit. How much did you drive the car after all the work?   Why not get the shop or person that did all the work to take a look at what they did before going down 15 rabbit holes.  

Headlights work now. I just meant that when I initially got it back, the headlights failed the first night I drove it, so took it back there for them to fix, and then they found other electrical issues as well and fixed those too. All for more money of course, so I’m hesitating on taking it back there now again (even though I’ve used them a lot) just because I’m scared of how much more it’s gonna cost me.

Agree with everyone proposing narrowing it down to fuel or spark.

If it just dies, without warning - it’s probably spark.

If it hesitates, and coughs and stutters, then dies, it may be fuel.

Rene’s suggestion (pull a plug after a stall) is a good one.

You want to narrow it down to reduce the troubleshooting possibilities.

Good luck -

Rocky



(Easy for me to say, but I’m betting it’s a coil or loose wire!)

Last edited by rocky
@Riley posted:

I didn't check anything else because, frankly, I was so annoyed by the car that I just put it up on the quickjack and went inside to enjoy the rest of my Sunday in front of the TV, haha! Unfortunately, with work, I may not be able to really look/test anything until the weekend. But all these posts give me a lot of research to do.

Above all, do not explore them all otherwise you will get lost!!!


Troubleshooting is a logical step-by-step process and certainly not following the advice of the neighbour's uncle's grandfather who had the same thing on his Ford T 90 years ago.
It is true that with experience you can "feel" where the breakdown is coming from, sometimes even without being able to say why, an impression which is in fact based on the multitude of those you have already seen. With experience you can also know that on this type of car there is a weak point often at the origin of this kind of breakdown and start by checking this point but you do'nt have this experience and it cannot be shared not or very difficult, therefore METHOD, METHOD and again METHOD.


As I told you above first determine if it is the gasoline or the ignition.
Assume it's ignition (wet spark plug and no sparks) then you go up the current path:
- Spark at coil output? Yes/No? To do this, you disconnect the high voltage wire that connects the coil to the distributor on the distributor side, you bring the end of the wire close to a metal mass (1/4'') and you operate the starter. Sparks ====> it's probably the distributor cap. No sparks ====> we continue but without replacing the distributor cap because the brother-in-law of the neighbor opposite solved a breakdown by replacing his.
Coil energized? Yes/No? For this you need a voltmeter and check if there is the right voltage where it is needed, this voltage and the terminal supplied vary according to your type of ignition. The voltage is good ====> there is a good chance that the coil is defective. The voltage is not good ====> we continue to go up the current circuit but there is no point in replacing the coil because that of the neighbour's uncle's grandfather was faulty 90 years ago.

etc., etc.....

I don't know what ignition setup you're using, I've got a Duraspark II. My car behaved just like that as my module was on it's way out.

Here's an easy way to test for spark without getting zapped. My preferred tool is a #2 phillips screwdriver. Next time it dies, try this. You will need someone to crank the engine while you observe. You should be able to pull a solid 1/4" spark arc.

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Last edited by larryw

...It's Much Easier than that! Borrow a Coil...Start the engine, (IF) it fails again, You KNOW it's NOT the Coil! Pull the Air Cleaner and Check the Carb Accelerator PUMP...Fuel Shoots Out, Or NO FUEL! If it 'WILL' NOT Fail, then You Know it WAS the Coil! Proving a Spark at the Plug or other...does Not Prove the Coil will Not Fail in Time! And a 'Spark Test' done wrong will Blow the Coil, as the Spark will Not fire to a Ground, but will burn through the Windings, 'Seeking' ground to the Primary wiring! The very reason a novice will buy a brand new Coil, 'Bench Test' it, slip-up wrong, blow it out and then think they received a 'Bad' Coil. It only takes One Time!

MJ

Last edited by marlinjack

Thats why I suggested the late model e-coil. The can-of-oil type coils are designed to start on 12VDC, then switch and run for hours on 9 VDC. When you leave the ignition on but not running, it feeds 12VDC continuously and the coils are not designed to take that energy. The Ford solid state transformer-looking coils WILL take 12VDC all day long.

That bit me years ago when I was doing something under the dash and decided to listen to the stereo while I worked. Turned the key to IGN instead of ACC and less than 10 minutes, the OEM coil went "POP" & began to leak insulating oil.

What has been described are not the symptoms of a failed coil. A failed coil will do one of two things. 1) It will not fire the ignition at all at cold start up 2) it will become "intermittent", i.e., it will start a cold engine but when the engine is warmed up or hot, it will not fire on a restart.

This is fuel related. Look at your own title to this thread.



It should be mentioned that Holley carbs have a tendency of clogging the idle air bleeds in the main body which will also give this stalling effect. What is confusing is that the carb will show fuel in it when you squirt the accelerator pump and will start but will almost immediately stall the engine, That's because the idle system is not engaging.



While you are on the subject of ignition, you may want to consider upgrading it to a solid state distributor like the Motorcraft, a better control unit like the Pantera-Electronics Ignition Controller and one of the aftermarket coils that P-E recommends with the Controller.

Last edited by panteradoug

So I replaced the fuel filter yesterday, and it was pretty bad. Drove the car for about 20 min to lunch and home, and no issues. Seemed like that was the issue. Then this morning, was supposed to meet our local Pantera group, and the car made it 30 miles no problem, and then while I was just pulling in to park, the car dies. This time I noticed that all the electrical died as well. Started back up, then died... and now no power at all. Luckily was there with a couple other Pantera guys, and they were able to help me push it into a safe parking space while I waited for a tow. After 30 min, the tow arrived and I was able to start it enough to drive it on the tow truck.

After discussing with the guys with me, it seems like it's really electrical. PIM just installed new Fluidyne radiator with their dual fans setup, and we're wondering if it's pulling too much power. My headlight motor burned out the first day I got it back, as well as the electrical connections with my gauges were overheating... which they had never done before. Then PIM fixes those issues, and now this.

I ordered a new coil per all the suggestions here, but we were also talking maybe I need a new 3-wire alternator to handle the much more powerful fans. Thoughts?

Why did PIM connect your fans so one comes on when the key is turned to ACC? Are you OK with that? Do the fans (or the fan) turn off when you're cranking the starter? My feeling is, no fans should turn on until the engine is running. You shouldn't have a rad fan on when you're cranking the starter. The fan just draws a bunch of current away from where it's needed. You might be able to get away with it, with stock fans but not with high amp draw aftermarket fans.

Also, both of your rad fans should be thermostatically controlled. What possible reason could there be to leave one fan on all the time? Will your car overheat if you don't? Ridiculous. 

You now have an intermittent electrical issue that started immediately after PIM worked on your electrical system. Coincidence? Possibly but not likely.

My 2 cents!

Last edited by davidnunn

I will also add that grounds are the root of all evil.  I also never run my fans while in motion, my car runs about 184/186 and I only need my fans if stuck in traffic (Florida).  Your oil must be 159 at minimum so you def need some heat.

I personally don't think anyone should be on an amp gauge anymore.

P.S...  The only reason I mention my experience is to add a data point and to illustrate that this car is a good car.  I stretch the throttle cable every time I drive it, it has all the updates and it's a very good and reliable car.  Granted, I just drive into town and back most days, but still, it's treated me very well.

Last edited by plt-1

Let’s not lose sight of the fact, this problem arose immediately after a vendor (PIM) did some electrical work on the car, including connecting one of the cooling fans to the ACC position of the ignition switch (???). It’s highly unlikely this problem has nothing to do with the work that was done. They were paid to do the work and they did something wrong. They should stand behind their work and fix it.

Once this matter has been resolved, I highly recommend the Pantera Electronics cooling fan controller. Your fans will turn on when needed but only when they’re needed! Also, their controller uses PWM to control fan speed, so they only spin as quickly as they need to.

Last edited by davidnunn

I'm going to contact PIM today about this, but I'm not holding my breath that they will fix this for free.

I do have the PE updated fuse board and really like it. I have a friend who's going to help me get the fans wired so they don't start up on ignition too, even though that's not the culprit it might help.

@Riley posted:

Everything. No accessories, windows, etc.

What about lights? Accessories and windows are fed through the ignition switch. If no lights also then look into main power connections, if lights still work (note that headlights will not open without accessory power so check tail lights) then most likely the ignition switch or connections at the terminal strip at the switch.

If you still have the original ammeter, check the connections.  

If the ammeter has been removed, check the wire splice (the two wires that originally connected to the ammeter will be spliced together).  

Check the battery terminal connections and the battery ground wire where it connects to the body in the front trunk.  

John

...I agree with Panteradoug and JB1490...could be a Isolating Circuit Breaker, for ALL Systems. And, Who Installed the Custom 'Fuse Block', that is suspect, could be one or two wires Not connected correctly. I, also, had the problem with the AMP Gauge, 'Very' Loose connections!! Long since, removed, Cables spliced Together with a Bolt!, Shrink-tubed with INDUSTRIAL/Thicker Shrink Tubing, Two Layers...and a VOLT Gauge added. You need to Learn HOW to Use the VOM. Check ALL Grounds, Including the 6-8 wires, To a Stud, just above Your left Knee, under the dash. And check the Ground to the chassis, AT the Battery, as others have suggested!!. The Ignition SWITCH, could be 'Shorting-out', usually Burned-Out, Internally!!!

I still think the 'One' Fan was wired to the Ignition Circuit!! Check that 'White' Junction Block just above the Steering Column! That would also mean...the ignition, Also, was wired to the ACC position of the Ign. Switch.

...Get out the Volt Meter and start Investigating!

Good Luck!

MJ

P.S. Just a Thought, what about the 'Major' Ground strap going from the Chassis to the TAIL of the ZF Gearbox?? That 'Woven' Thing is always seen corroded and Rotting! That strap is the ONLY Link Grounding the Engine to the Battery, through the Chassis. And Last, the Headlights DO NOT work when the Ignition Switch is TURNED-OFF!!

Last edited by marlinjack

Since we are discussing the realm of the weird, let me add this tidbit.

I recently had a new battery in which the positive terminal was broken internally in the battery.

It would cause symtoms very similar to what is happening here. I stumbled upon this by accident, just going through the basics for the umpteen time.

I changed the battery and all was good with the world again...but it has symptoms of a circuit breaker resetting itself after it cools down.

Ha! Never heard that one before. To the earlier question, I had wired in the PD fuse box myself, and PIM found and fixed a couple of my not-so-great connections when they did the headlight motor; so I was at fault there. They said they also fixed and cleaned up all the wiring in the console (some of which was mine, so of which was there before me). I don't know what they wired into the ignition switch though... but sounds like the fans are directly wired into it if they are turning on with the key, right?

I replaced my ampmeter with a voltmeter but could never get it to work; PIM fixed that in the last round of work.

As for headlights, I'm pretty sure mine raise and work regardless of key in the ignition... but now I'm not sure. Will check when I get home.

Last edited by Riley

In summary :
- you replaced the fuse panel and you made mistakes
- you replaced the ammeter with a voltmeter which did not work,
- you are not sure of the operation of your headlights or that of the fans
- you don't know what the ignition switch controls and which devices have a relay
- you are ready to replace your alternator without having any certainty that it is the fault
-then it will be the turn of the battery because Panteradoug had a problem with his
- you go looking for a heat protection device that resets itself without even knowing if there is one in your car
- ......

All this shows that you are not an electrician at all and have no training in troubleshooting research. It's not a criticism at all, everyone has their own skills, but in these conditions stop looking without method, in all directions at the same time, taking inspiration only from "mine did the same and it was.... .". Leave your car with a professional, PIM or another, because don't forget that a faulty electrical circuit can not only create breakdowns but also set the car on fire and in the end, if the professional is honest it will cost you less.

Further to what Rene wrote above: this problem arose immediately after you had a bunch of electrical work done by PIM. Do they know what they’re doing? If so, how do you know? Keep in mind, one of their mods was questionable at best (cooling fan always  “on”). If they won’t (or can’t) fix the problem, flat deck or trailer the car to Don Byars. There are others but I have first hand experience with Don, so I’m happy to recommend him.

Last edited by davidnunn

Riley,

    It seem the issue started after someone did a repair procedure on your car.  Not blaming the repair facility, just stating that makes common sense to start there.  Also, you mentioned there are other Pantera owners close to you (met up with them one morning for a drive when your car failed in the parking lot).  Maybe have them all over and collectively trouble shoot your car.  You never know, someone may know or stubble onto the issue.  If nothing else, it makes for a fun time to spend with fellow owners.  I know how frustrating these situations are and the lack of confidence you can acquire in your car during these types of unexplainable issues.  I would maybe call Sharkey at Pantera of Miami and explain what is going on and see if he has had an experience like yours.  If not Sharkey, anyone that works on these cars.  Good luck, stay the course, you will find it eventually.

@Mike A posted:

Riley,

    It seem the issue started after someone did a repair procedure on your car.  Not blaming the repair facility, just stating that makes common sense to start there.  Also, you mentioned there are other Pantera owners close to you (met up with them one morning for a drive when your car failed in the parking lot).  Maybe have them all over and collectively trouble shoot your car.  You never know, someone may know or stubble onto the issue.  If nothing else, it makes for a fun time to spend with fellow owners.  I know how frustrating these situations are and the lack of confidence you can acquire in your car during these types of unexplainable issues.  I would maybe call Sharkey at Pantera of Miami and explain what is going on and see if he has had an experience like yours.  If not Sharkey, anyone that works on these cars.  Good luck, stay the course, you will find it eventually.

As if finding the origin of a breakdown was luck or chance!!!! Why not ask a voodoo wizard for help too?
Finding a breakdown requires knowledge and method, everything else is like playing a lottery, it can work.......

IMO, hourly shop rates are somewhat meaningless. What matters is how much work the technician can accomplish in an hour. That's why taking your Pantera to a shop that specializes in Panteras should make financial sense. You aren't paying for someone to do a bunch of "head scratching" while they figure out the Pantera's peculiarities. Mind you, Pantera shops come and go too. Luckily, the Pantera community is pretty tight, so the bad ones disappear quickly. That being said, make sure you get a few positive referrals before you commit to a big job.

A long time ago, I asked Don Byars how long it takes him to completely disassemble a Pantera that drove into the shop. I don't remember the exact number but I remember being "blown away" by how quickly he could do it. That's what happens when all you do is work on one particular model of car for 40+ years!

Last edited by davidnunn

If you live in the LA area, you have PI, Wilkinson, and Byers to choose from.  Hall no longer works on the P.  Lance Nist is an electrical genius but is also no longer working on cars either.  If it were me, I would CALL PI and discuss the problem with them and seek their response.  It sounds like the car went to them with electrical issues and their work may of disturbed something else (which is where I suggested you start looking at the beginning) not to mention they wired a fan to always run which is NOT correct.  If you no longer want to engage PI, then I would go to one of the other two, but both are probably backed up for months but you would need to call each and discuss the problem.  The LAST thing I would do is to take it to someone unfamiliar with the P and its unique wiring, unless you have a good referral and a shop that works on exotics.  V's performance in Orange does a lot of GT40 builds, etc.  They may be willing to get involved.  Unless you are very skilled at auto electrical systems, trying to diagnose this further is akin to asking a dentist to pull a tooth over the phone.  Shop rates are at least $100 an hour and it sounds like you are into it for a grand plus whatever parts may now be toasted.

@Riley posted:

So I replaced the fuel filter yesterday, and it was pretty bad. Drove the car for about 20 min to lunch and home, and no issues. Seemed like that was the issue. Then this morning, was supposed to meet our local Pantera group, and the car made it 30 miles no problem, and then while I was just pulling in to park, the car dies. This time I noticed that all the electrical died as well. Started back up, then died... and now no power at all. Luckily was there with a couple other Pantera guys, and they were able to help me push it into a safe parking space while I waited for a tow. After 30 min, the tow arrived and I was able to start it enough to drive it on the tow truck.

After discussing with the guys with me, it seems like it's really electrical. PIM just installed new Fluidyne radiator with their dual fans setup, and we're wondering if it's pulling too much power. My headlight motor burned out the first day I got it back, as well as the electrical connections with my gauges were overheating... which they had never done before. Then PIM fixes those issues, and now this.

I ordered a new coil per all the suggestions here, but we were also talking maybe I need a new 3-wire alternator to handle the much more powerful fans. Thoughts?

I think you should check your ignition switch. Sometimes when they start to fail, it will cause a stalling or shut down issue.

Riley, I have worked with every wire and electrical system in Panteras.  Below is a photo of a wiring harness that was out of the car that I restored to factory specifications before reinstalling it.  I am away the next two weekends and could come to your place after that and hopefully help you fix it, assuming the problem can be reproduced.  Let me know if you still need help after February 12.  I could come over before then during the week but you are probably working and there are traffic challenges to get to and from your place.

1E0C0CDF-81A4-4B6B-BE95-AE487E997C27

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