Sticky #7: Tires for OEM 15 inch wheels

BFG Radial TA's are a popular alternative. Decent grip, they have the stock white letter look and they are pretty cheep. They come in a lot of sizes and are pretty popluar with the vintage car guys. Just don't track them...they don't have a very high speed rating.

Also, you can fit bigger then a 215 on the rear 8inch.
BFG does look pretty good. I like the white letters as they closely resemble the Arrivas which I find attractive on the Pantera. Just got my car and they have 295/50's on the rear. The side walls are sunken, and they look bad. What is the widest tire I can use on the 15" wheel and not have sunken sidewalls? They list 215, 225, 235, and so on. Don't know if they are REALLY available though.

SOURCING TIRES

Tires for the original 15" Campagnolo wheels can be sourced from "classic tire" suppliers or sourced from "contemporary tire" suppliers.

Re-issues of classic tires are "reproductions" in appearance and size, but they are constructed using modern rubber compounds and modern construction techniques. They "look" like the classic tire they are emulating in sidewall design and tread pattern, they are available in the right size for your car, but they are thoroughly modern in terms of performance.

Longstone Classic Tyres of Bawtry, South Yorkshire, England, is the only "supplier" of reproduction tires who has shown an interest in our classic Italian cars. Longstone's US distributor is Lucas Classic Tires of Long Beach, California. Classic tires of the proper size for some applications are available from Pirelli, Michelin, and Avon.

Longstone Classic Tyres

Lucas Classic Tires

Avon Tires are also available in the US via Frisby Performance Tire (Park City Illinois), Roger Krause Racing (Castro Valley California), SascoSports (Alton Virginia), or Sierra Tire (Henderson Nevada).

The availability of contemporary tires for 15” wheels has been dwindling over the last couple of decades; especially for tires having a speed rating of V (or higher). The options in selecting the same make and model tires in the front as you select for the rear are highly limited.

Here are two good internet sites for checking-out what's available amongst "contemporary" tires, they both allow you to search by size for "sets" of tires wherein the front tires and rear tires are a different size:

Tire Rack.com/

On Line Tires.com/


CARING FOR MAGNESIUM WHEELS

The purpose behind using 15 inch tires is of course to continue using the factory 15 inch wheels. So lets touch on care of magnesium wheels for a moment.

If your Pantera's magnesium wheels have never been serviced (most haven't) they should be serviced. The older the Pantera is, or the more miles it has on it, the more important this is:

  • The wheels should be visually inspected for curb-rash damage and damage from crimp-on balancing weights. If the wheels were holding air pressure and there is no visibly "severe" damage, its OK to proceed.
  • If one or more of the wheels aren't holding air pressure, or if you want to be more thorough, the wheels should be tested for cracks and porosity. But there are few places that can repair magnesium wheels, so unless you have such a place near you, you'll have to ship them somewhere for repair. Pantera Parts Connection of Reno Nevada can provide full service of the wheels, including repairing damage, cracking, and porosity.
  • At this point you must decide whether or not to remove the OEM paint finish prior to annealing the wheels. Magnesium wheels have a layer of zinc chromate below the primer and top coats of paint. This chromate conversion coating is not anti corrosion protection ... it provides a finish that primer paint can adhere to. If you remove this chromate coating it must be replaced. If you don't chromate the magnesium before painting you can guarantee that your beautiful paint finish will lift off some time in the future. If you choose to leave the OEM paint on the wheel then remove the decals, balance weights, adhesives, clean-off all dirt, brake dust, and grease. The paint shall turn brown in color during the annealing process. If you choose to remove the OEM paint then do so employing a gentle blasting process such as plastic beads, walnut shells, etc.
  • Anneal the wheels at 375°F for one full hour after being brought to that temperature, then cool the wheels as slowly as possible (i.e. turn the oven off, but leave the oven door closed, and let the oven slowly cool until it reaches room temperature).
  • if the wheels were annealed without removing the OEM paint then after annealing prepare the OEM painted surfaces to make the paint suitable as a "base coat" for the new paint, using caution to remove as little paint as possible and to avoid exposing bare metal. The best surface prep where bare metal has been exposed is Dow 1. You just wipe the Dow 1 on and leave it on for 3 minutes. The exposed Magnesium should at this point change to a rich brown or gold color. Then wash off the Dow 1 with clean tap water.
  • If the paint and primer were removed prior to annealing then clean the bare magnesium after annealing with Dow 19 and a Faber Castell fiber glass tipped pen (available from arts supply shops). These pens are for use in place of a scotch bright cleaning pad. The Dow 19 will also lightly chromate the surface as it cleans. You may see the surface turn slightly brown or gold. It is essential that you remove EVERY TRACE of corrosion before moving on to the final steps (prime and paint).
  • Instead of Dow 19 a fresh coat of  zinc-chromate primer can be applied, if you can find it. Some say zinc-phosphate can be employed as a substitute for  zinc-chromate, I have not verified this. When substituting zinc chromate it is important that the substitute shall provide a coating that primer paint can adhere to.
  • The final steps are to prime and paint the wheels. DO NOT SAND the chromate surface prior to painting. Wipe off finger print oil, etc. with a professional auto painters grade wax and grease remover. Then prime and seal with 2 part epoxy primer. Modern primers are most likely chromate free, but if you can find a primer with chromate in it so much the betterAltex AltraBond 3094 is a chromate free etching primer used and certified by the aerospace industry for priming magnesium parts.   

OEM TIRE SETS


Tire Set 1 | 1971-1972 | 185/70VR15 + 215/70VR15 
Push Button, Pre-L, Early GTS, Early Group 3
Chassis number 1001 through 4268

This set is available in Michelin XWX re-issues. There is little demand for this size however.

Most owners of the earliest Panteras opt for tires in the sizes of tire set 2 or tire set 3; which are by far the two most popular and therefore most common tire sets for narrow body Panteras.


Tire Set 2 | 1972½ -1977 | 205/60VR15 + 255/60VR15 
Pantera L, GTS, Group 3
Chassis number 4269 through 7554, and 9001 through 9099

This set is available in BF Goodrich Radial T/A (speed rated S).

205/60VR15 tires (V speed rating) were original equipment on 1987 - 1995 Acura Legends, various 1986 - 1994 Audis, 1995 - 1997 Honda Accords, and 1986 - 1991 Mazda RX-7s. Kumho and Pantera Tire currently manufacture 205/60VR15 tires. There are probably others I haven't found.

The 255/60R15 is also available in Pirelli CN12 re-issues (speed rated W). Alternatives to the 255/60R15 rear tires are tires sized 275/55R15. The Avon CR6ZZ "classic" street legal radial racing tire is available in this size.

Combining one of the 205/60VR15 front tires with the Pirelli Cinturato CN12 or the Avon CR6ZZ rear tire would result in a "mixed" set of tires speed rated V (higher than a set of Radial T/As).


Tire Set 3 | 1978-1984 | 225/50VR15 + 285/50VR15 
Late Model GTS, Late Model Group 3
Chassis number 9100 through 9374

The Front is available in Pirelli P7 re-issues and in Pirelli P-Zero System.

THE REAR IS NOT AVAILABLE ANYWHERE.

Dougal Cawley of Longstone Classic Tyres says "I am in talks with Pirelli about the 285/50R15 size tire, but it is not as yet set in production. It will take time. Please be patient." By taking time, he means "years".

The most common substitute tires for the 285/50VR15 tire are in the size of 295/50R15 (speed rated S). There are about 5 manufacturers supplying tires in this size: BF Goodrich, Cooper, Hankook, Milestar and Mastercraft. The Avon CR6ZZ "classic" street legal radial racing tire is also available in this size, but not in 225/50R15 for the front.

A great number of owners of 1971-1977 Panteras retro-fitted their Panteras with factory 10x15 rear wheels, and moved the 8x15 rear wheels to the front position, in order to accommodate the tires of set 3. Every 10x15 wheel that De Tomaso had stocked, at least a cargo container full of them, sold-out long ago. The 10x15 wheel remains popular even though the proper tire hasn't been available for years. When a used set of 10x15 wheels comes-up for sale, they sell quickly at top dollar prices. There are not one but two aftermarket companies manufacturing this wheel still today (Roin and Marvic). I know Pantera owners who have purchased second Panteras simply because the second Pantera was equipped with this size rear wheels. They removed the 10x15 wheels, replaced them with 8x15 wheels, and placed the second Pantera up for sale again. The point is that this is a very popular tire set amongst Pantera owners. There are a far greater number of Panteras set-up to use tires in the sizes of tire set 3 than production numbers would indicate.


Tire Set 4 | 1978-1990 | 285/40VR15 + 345/35VR15 
Wide Bodies: GT4, GT5, GT5-S
Chassis number 9100 through 9374, and 9375 through 9562

This set is available in Pirelli P7 re-issues.
The rear tire is also available in Pirelli P-Zero System


Tire Set 5 | 1990-1993 | 235/45ZR17 + 335/35ZR17 
Wide Body: Pantera Si
Chassis number 9601 through 9641

This tire set is available from 2 manufacturers, but it is not available in the same model tire for front and rear.

Michelin: Pilot Sport 4S front + Pilot Sport PS2 rear
Pirelli.: P-Zero Nero GT front + P-Zero System rear


Two Non OEM Options:


Historic: Back in the 1990s owners of "Pre-1978" Panteras (approximately 6,654 Panteras) wishing to upgrade to low profile tires could "Plus 1" or "Plus 3" the tires for their Pantera by choosing Pirelli P7s in in the sizes of 225/55VR15 on the front and 275/55VR15 on the rear. The 225/55VR15 front tire was optional equipment on the 1992 through 1997 BMW three series, the 275/55VR15 rear tire was standard equipment on the Bentley Turbo R, 1985 through 1992. This was a bitchen tire set for the Pantera while it lasted. These tires aren't available today, so I'm mentioning this tire set more as a bit of historic information rather than an option available to us today. If "high quality - speed rated - passenger car tires" should ever become available in these sizes again such a tire set would become my personal preference. But I'm not hopeful that shall ever happen.

Contemporary: This option IS available today. Purchase a pair of reproduction wheels from Roin Technology directly or via Mr.Fiat, but rather than 10x15 order 10x17 instead (I'd recommend 13mm positive offset). Mount 225/50ZR15 Pirelli P-Zero System tires on the OEM 7x15 front wheels, and mount 285/40ZR17 Pirelli P-Zero System tires on the new rear wheels. The fender openings are 2 inches different in diameter front to rear, and the tires are a bit more than 2 inches different in diameter front to rear. The 2 inch difference in wheel diameter emphasizes this difference, it is quite dramatic looking. The sidewalls of the rear tires are 1 inch shorter for better handling too. The tire set is contemporary rather than a re-issue, and the sizes are readily available. AND it looks factory original.

-G
.

BFG T/As are rated at 106 mph and available in 215 and 255/60x15. I have used these tires on my GT6 and TR8. Perfectly good tires in just about any weather conditions one might want to drive a Pantera in. I guess if one wants to storm around at higher speeds, they can a) enjoy spending some insurance, ticket, and legal fee money Big Grin , and b) upgrade to larger everything thing to handle those speeds well north of 100mph !!!!
Merging threads

quote:
Originally posted by 22 Racer:
Recently purchased a 72 Pantera with the old Pirelli tires on the original 15" Campy's. Can't find a manufacture that makes a tire for both the front and rear. Help! Can anyone provide information for my dilemma? Thanks
BTW: the rears are not the 10" width.
I think they will be OK.

The things to be concerned about are total width and rolling diameter. Under 26" dia. seems to work best with minimal rubbing. There may be some other posts around here with size options and opinions, but that's the size I'd pick if you're using 10" rear and 8" fronts. For 7" fronts maybe the 215 or even 205 might be a better fit. It depends what you're running now and if any rubbing is occurring at full steering lock.

Good luck!
Mark
You're right about the sizes Bud but if you know of any manufacturer making BOTH front and rear tires in the optimum sizes, please share because I couldn't find anything but the odd loose tire on eBay. The 60 series fronts are a bit tall, but if you go with the narrower ones the height shrinks as well. The 205's are only 24.7" tall.

Mark
You need to be careful with the age of these tires. BFG's and Pirelli's start to crack through the outer treads somewhere around three years of age.

The BFG's in particular will throw chunks of tread out like the retreads used to, leaving you to look at just the fiber from the carcass.

The Pirelli's crack like this too between the tread blocks.

One of the memebers here in Europe bought a Pirelli tire like this, NOS, and it failed within 30 or 40 miles.

This considered, what is the point in looking for NOS tires that are more then a year old from manufacture regardless of whether or not they are used or not?

Try the Mickey Thompson LT rear tires. There are more then a few 225-vr50-15 tires still made.

You just are not going to find a matching set, front-back, in 15".

Even Hoosier no longer makes them.
quote:
Originally posted by 22 Racer:
Recently purchased a 72 Pantera with the old Pirelli tires on the original 15" Campy's. Can't find a manufacture that makes a tire for both the front and rear. Help! Can anyone provide information for my dilemma? Thanks
BTW: the rears are not the 10" width.


I have a new, never mounted, set of 295/50-15" Toyo Proxes ST's available. The pic shows what the identical set looked like on #5606 which I sold last year. My rears were 10" wide, but the tires fit fine on 8" wide rear wheels. These are used in conjunction with Toyo Proxes 4's on the front as they have a similar tread pattern. I wrapped them up when new and they have been stored properly.

They cost me $400 including shipping from the East Coast, so that is my asking price.

FYI-the manufacturing date was the 12th week of 2007.

I am located in the northern San Diego area.

I have 305/50/15 on th rear of my car ....BF Goodrich EURO TA's and boy they fit mighty fine on the rear 15 x 10 ... if they remade them I would be a happy man. I think I'm going to lean towards what Mickey Thompson has for drag radial when the time come to replace them.

Ron
These are the best fit now for the rear. Mickey Thompson 26-12-15. Built for an 8-10 inch rim.

The BFG 295-50-15 is also a good fit and easy to get. It only has an S rating though. You can get the bigger tire in, the 305 Euro T/A but they were discontinued a while ago.

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Still are. I had my RWL Dunlops installed white-lettering in and then used tire paint over the letters so you wouldn't see it from the "inside" (it looks odd to see white letters from the insides).

In case anyone is tempted, don't try to remove the white lettering because it's a layer of white rubber and you can easily wreck a tire cutting/sanding it off.

Mark
Technically you are correct. Those tires exist. At $787 each for the rears, there are better solutions.

That tire also requires a wider rim then a 10" AND is really too short (outside diameter) for the car.

...in my opinion.

Use the Mickey Thompson in the rear. At $250 each, how can you go wrong?
... i guess for all the original muscle cars were going to have to ride on the rims when the 15's wear out ? Or drive competition tires on the street ... seems like there are more of a selection on comp tires ...where you would think there is less of a demand ?
The only issue for me at the moment is that I am not ready to put tires on it for the fall. Probably yes in the spring though.

I don't want to buy a set of tires now and have the clock ticking on the ageing of the rubber over the winter.

The other issue is that there is not a matching set front to back, which personally doesn't bother me, and the concern is that since the 15" are going the ways of the Dodo birds, the Michey Thompson may get discontinued also.

I'm not sure I want to run comp tires on the street. The rubber compounds are too sensative to temperature and as a result could be letheal until the warm up. How do you warm up a race tire when it is 20 degrees F?
The decimal point has got to be in the wrong place? $60 is more like it. These will likely fail while mounting them up.

Pirelli P7's age rather rapidly. If you don't use them, you loose them. It doesn't matter how you stored them. Five years old is about the safe limit of use. The thicker the tread, the quicker the deterioration.

If you shoot them with Armorall, that makes the rubber dry out and crack faster.

They dry any split between the treads. I've had chunks of tread not only separate but come off and leave just the cords.

But yes, Pirelli should make some more new ones. BFG Comp T/A's are as good and they should make some more 15" also.

There is no one left in the world who drives on 15" rims? Wow. Time has for sure passed me by?
price adjusted down, I don't know what they are worth? the Countach crowd pays up pretty well for those 'standard' fronts, so I thought of them. They don't see too many this new.

Like I said, they are Pantera perfect for 8's and 10's and many are driving on updated bigger wheelsets and may want a 'SHOW' set of wheels/tires - extra, I know I would (don't currently own a Pantera)
Understood. You can always lower the price. Hard to raise it.

They are actually a little small for a Pantera. 305 rear, 235 front would be more desirable.

You are talking about upgrading a 71 Pantera with stock tires. 235 rear, 185 fronts.

Good luck with the auction.
...while still on the subject of 15" tires, here are some of my others available right now, NOS, priced LOW, flame away!

they are an odd size, so might not work for anybody, but good tires that MIGHT work for somebody! here, have a look

http://www.ebay.com/itm/330807...id=p3984.m1423.l2649

I am also offering a set of Dunlop vintage racing tires (remakes), interesting exact tires were on the racing Pantera that sold for $160K on eBay the other day...I added this photo of the fronts and rears sandwiching a 305/50/15 euro ta so you can see I did my research...wanted tires that filled the wheel wells JUST RIGHT on the Mangusta...(insert Pantera here). I paid close to $3,000. new was gonna run my Mangusta on em, and ended up NOT shipping them with the car/wheels, so lemme know if these interest anybody as well, presently offered with NOS Mangusta wheels on eBay that don't seem to be sought after right now, so when auction expires, contact me about these or make an $offer if they go unsold
quote:
The 60 series fronts are a bit tall, but if you go with the narrower ones the height shrinks as well. The 205's are only 24.7" tall.

FWIW, I used to have 205/50-15 tires on the front of my Pantera, then switched to the 225/50-15 Toyo Proxes 4 on the fronts. Diameters of the two tires was almost identical, with the 205 BFG's maybe filling the wheel well slightly more. Just a data point to consider.
I calmly re-read the comments about the P7 tires and I had another deep examination of them, and all I gotta say is they are pretty freakin amazing. Those comments about brittle collapsing material does not apply to this extremely nice set. They came right off the rims - I just had em removed. I have no doubt they would still perform, but as I've stated clearly everywhere, they are best for show for every reason. Just don't want people thinking they are garbage, again a pattern around here when I've offered up some truly quality nice stuff and people instantly gang trash it, and question validity of statements, like a fool is posting up junk?? Stop it Smiler I've got some nice stuff, and don't want enthusiasts to miss out if you are looking for example - for tires for 15" campy's - I didn't start this thread, just answered the call. Look at my garage photo, I've got lots of GREAT tires for 15" campy's...those are all 15" tires in that photo and they are all good stuff! FYI - the euro ta set 305/50 and 225/50 were smartly snatched up just two days ago and are on their way to Australia, perhaps the new owner will vouch for them in a few weeks when he sees what he just acquired, I don't know what else to say about this, but felt like I needed to kinda stand back up for these items. Next up a set of Campy 10's and 8's QUALITY rims...perhaps Mike Mayberry might vouch for the set of 10's I just answered the call on for a european client of his, again, just cleaning out my amazing stash of DeTomaso wheel/tire goodies, I've got the good shit man Smiler and I wanna liquidate all of it
It has nothing to do with you or your integrity. It has to do with saving someone else's life who thinks that tires this old are safe to risk their life on in a high speed event on a track.

It has always been buyer beware.

Unfortunately it has always been an issue with the clock running on anything made of rubber. Some items will last longer then others.

Tires are not like gold bars where you can buy them as an investment and store them forever.

High performance tires in general even new have rubber compounds designed for high heat conditions. Low heat conditions as a result are on or over the limit for low temps. 20 f is about the limit for them before you have issues.

Some of the cracks in the rubber are superficial due to the action of Armor all on the rubber.

Multiple mountings of tires works against them as well.

Even new tires can fail just going out the driveway.

This is just something people should be aware of and make their own decisions on.

I have no vested interests in negatively effecting your sales. Best of luck with that.
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
It has nothing to do with you or your integrity. It has to do with saving someone else's life who thinks that tires this old are safe to risk their life on in a high speed event on a track.

It has always been buyer beware.

Unfortunately it has always been an issue with the clock running on anything made of rubber. Some items will last longer then others.

Tires are not like gold bars where you can buy them as an investment and store them forever.

High performance tires in general even new have rubber compounds designed for high heat conditions. Low heat conditions as a result are on or over the limit for low temps. 20 f is about the limit for them before you have issues.

Some of the cracks in the rubber are superficial due to the action of Armor all on the rubber.

Multiple mountings of tires works against them as well.

Even new tires can fail just going out the driveway.

This is just something people should be aware of and make their own decisions on.

I have no vested interests in negatively effecting your sales. Best of luck with that.


completely agree and respect your knowledge on the subject, I tried to be careful in EVERY public mention, whether discussion or in the ad that I recommend them for SHOW only...they work VERY well as show tires for someone wanting period correct or authenticity of era, thanks Doug for your reply Smiler

and it's NOT armour-all on them...they were wiped down with a damp rag and that is Lake Tahoe morning light making them POP in the photos, they are like new and look like that new
First, 245-50 x 15" BFGs will fit on 8" Campys in front, with a little work. More clearancing may be necessary on the left front than the right front, depending on the Pantera, and if you've added extra caster, a little more clearance may be necessary around the wiper shield and rerouting of the brake lines.
Second, Pirelli P-7R's ARE still periodically available in 275-55 x 15 and 295-50 x 15", in W speed rating (168 mph) from PPC-Carson City. Note the 'R' stands for 'Rally' and they have current date codes- they are not ancient NOS! The problem is, Pirelli makes them at the same little prototype factory in western Turkey as F-1 racing tires. Guess which gets priority? A vendor orders 10 tires and gets 3; he reorders and gets 1...sometimes, none at all. The only way this works is to call Larry and get on his list, as such tires sell within hours of their arrival and are NEVER advertised. They are also not cheap. But arguably they are about the only game in town if you want the insurance of a real DOT speed rating in a wide 15" tire.
Fronts are easier. There are lots of 225-50-15 v or better tires around.

I have Pirelli 225-50-15 P7's on the front but I am going to replace them with something larger. 235 will definitely fit. Some say a 245-50-15 will fit as well.

The largest problem is the lack of something better then an S (BFG) or a T (Mickey Thompson) for the rear.

The BFG has a wider tread at 12.2". The Mickey Thompson tread is a 9.7" tread according to the chart. That would give you the look of a Bonneville vintage 1964 over inflated tire, which I am sure was intended considering it is Mickey Thompson.

The 225-50-15 fronts look like go cart tires on this car and have the effect of lowering the front a little.

Too bad the P7s aren't available. I think they were the best of the 15" tires.
quote:
what brand of are the tires you are running on your car? and JEGS has BF Goodrich 225 60 15 for the front but said thinks they mit rub on wheel wells

I used to have...
BFG Comp TA 205/60x15 on the front, and
BFG Euro TA 305/50x15 on the rear, but they wore out.

Now I have...
Toyo Proxes 4 225/50-15 on front, and
Toyo Proxes ST 295/50x15 on rear
I didn't say they come cheap, but:

If you want good tyres that can cope with high speeds and plenty of horsepower, and of a high quality, those are the way to go. Reasonable priced (imo - at least for us Europeans), seen the little demand and production nnumbers, unless you drive many thousands of miles each year with the cat.

Last year I still found a set of 225/50/15 Toyo front tyres for €300/$375.
If it means anything to anyone ... LT stands for "light truck". Tires with LT at the end of the tire code are truck tires. This means they have more plies of steel & nylon in the sidewall, making the sidewalls stiffer, to prevent wheel damage when used off-road, and for carrying higher payloads. The rubber compounds are different as well, promoting longer tread life and less chance of damage (chunking) when used off road.

-G
quote:
Might go with a 60. Car is very low in front with the 50.

205/60-15 is almost the same size as a 225/50-15, except that the 205/60-15 has a slightly larger diameter so it fills the wheel well a bit better. My car looked great with 205/60/15's on the front and 305/50/15's on the rear.

http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/infoTireMath.dos

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Make sure you don't buy old stock on these tires. Pirellis in particular don't age well, for high performance use.

I find NO 295-50-15's available with any rating other then the S that the BFG has. Fronts are fairly easy.

The Toyo's haven't been around in a couple of years as far as I can see.
I can deal with H-rated. That's rated to 130MPH (not a speed I get to very often... if ever). In fact I don't think I know of another 295/50/15 that has an H rating or higher. Very limited selection. Hopefully a manufacturer will recognize the opportunity. Muscle car owners with 15 inch wheels all struggle to find nice fat tires.
OMG! How cn you ever show your face in public? LOL!
I don't have my old Comp 427 Cobra pics handy but as I remember, this is very reminiscent of the S/C's.
CSX 3035 and 3036, both red are both like yours. Squatted in the rear with the tire hiding partially under the lip which makes the nose seem a little high.
The rear springs for some reason take a set there and you really can't come lower in the front if you look under at the chassis tubes.
As I recall, you can't make a fist and clear the tube and ground with it, vertically. That's low.
When Dick Smith had the car, he didn't worry about the look, just the function.
I don't know who owns Eber's car now but they were very, very similar and Eber would just copy what Smith had done to his car rather then experiment on his own.
They are both red cars like yours is too.Race cars don't worry at all about cosmetics.
Incidentally, beautiful Cobra.
I've been looking too. I need 295/50/15's and 225/50/15's. You can find both pretty easily but there's not much available for the 15x10 inch rims that are what you would consider high performance/exotic car tread pattern.

I've been thinking about these for the back
http://www.mickeythompsontires...php?item=SportsmanSR.

If my math is correct the 26X12.00R15LT should work? I think these should almost be the same as
P295-50-15's...maybe with a slightly lower profile? Doesn't look like they have a 225/50/15 so I was thinking about these (tread pattern is kindof close) http://www.tirerack.com/tires/...lse&fromCompare1=yes.

You can find some different brands on ebay too http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html...t=See-All-Categories but of course you can find these manufacturers other places as well.
It appears your Pantera is equipped with 15x10 rear Campy wheels, and I'll assume it has 15x8 Campy wheels in the front. The European GTS was originally equipped with 225/50R15 front tires mounted on 15x8 wheels and 285/50R15 rear tires mounted on 15x10 wheels. I assume those are the tire sizes you're interested in. Tires in the 285/50R15 rear size just aren't available these days. Everybody opts instead for 295/50R15 tires for the rear, there is reasonable availability of passenger car tires in that size, but only with lower speed ratings.

A side note: for those interested in upgrading to this tire/wheel combination, 15"x10" forged aluminum Campy clone wheels for the rear of the Pantera are available from a seller on eBay by the name of MisterFiat. They are manufactured by Roin Technology of Italy.

Good quality 295/50R15 performance street tires appropriate for a sports car are available, but locating and acquiring them can be challenging and expensive. For instance Longstone Classic Tyres in the UK sells an Avon CR6ZZ in 275/55VR15 or 295/50VR15, but they don't offer a 225/50VR15 for the front in the same make and model. They do have other makes and models (Michelin, Pirelli) in that size with V or Z speed ratings. Its never ideal to mix and match makes or even models, but when coping with acquiring tires for the oem 15" wheels its an unfortunate necessity. The tires at Longstone are high speed rated and available.

The difficulty and expense of acquiring performance tires designed for 15" rear wheels has lead some owners to utilize street legal competition tires. Other owners have chosen to use tires designed for light trucks (rated LT) in the rear. These are unusual choices for sports car tires, I understand why owners make those choices but I don't wholeheartedly agree with them. Street legal competition tires are not the safest choice, and tires with sidewall structures and rubber compounds designed for light trucks are not a good match for an Italian sports car either. But those tires are easier to acquire and/or less expensive.

-G
quote:
Originally posted by Bosswrench:
First, 245-50 x 15" BFGs will fit on 8" Campys in front, with a little work. More clearancing may be necessary on the left front than the right front, depending on the Pantera, and if you've added extra caster, a little more clearance may be necessary around the wiper shield and rerouting of the brake lines.
Second, Pirelli P-7R's ARE still periodically available in 275-55 x 15 and 295-50 x 15", in W speed rating (168 mph) from PPC-Carson City. Note the 'R' stands for 'Rally' and they have current date codes- they are not ancient NOS! The problem is, Pirelli makes them at the same little prototype factory in western Turkey as F-1 racing tires. Guess which gets priority? A vendor orders 10 tires and gets 3; he reorders and gets 1...sometimes, none at all. The only way this works is to call Larry and get on his list, as such tires sell within hours of their arrival and are NEVER advertised. They are also not cheap. But arguably they are about the only game in town if you want the insurance of a real DOT speed rating in a wide 15" tire.


I'm not doubting you Bosswrench but Larry has no 295-50-15 P7 listed at all. Frankly at $461 ea for the 275-55-15, I'll look elsewhere. Mine cost about $180 each.

These tires will rot on my car before they will get worn out?

I would also point out that I can't remember when he updated the webpage last and that price might be 5 years old? Eeker
They make race tires: NOT FOR HIGHWAY USE: All Hoosier Racing Tires including DOT labeled Hoosier Racing Tires are designed for racing purposes only on specified racing surfaces and are not to be operated on public roadways. DOT labeled Hoosier Racing Tires meet Department Of Transportation requirements for marking and performance only and are NOT INTENDED FOR HIGHWAY USE. It is unsafe to operate any Hoosier Racing Tire including DOT tires on public roads. The prohibited use of Hoosier Racing Tires on public roadways may result in loss of traction, unexpected loss of vehicle control, or sudden loss of tire pressure, resulting in a vehicle crash and possible injury or death.
quote:
Originally posted by griffinmax:
The Mickey Thompson Sportsman S/R's still seem good candidates. H rated. A 26X12.00R15LT tire is the equivalent of 305/46/15 metric.

Here's a little feedback from ClubCobra http://www.clubcobra.com/forum...tsman-s-r-tires.html

They look pretty good on the car too...


This is an EXCELLENT recommendation. Completely under MY radar! Way to go. Love it.

However, I can't find head nor hair of a speed rating, wear rating, traction rating on them. Where did you get that data?

Also, 305 is the metric equivalent, yes, but how did you get the aspect ratio on this tire?

I saw the H speed rating on it yes. Wait. I see the A traction rating too, although that tread pattern is looks very suspicious of traction even with a weather prediction of a 30% chance of rain. No matter. This car hasn't seen that in 25 years.

I feel the value of my original 10" Campis going up now...did you feel it? Big Grin

Thanks. You made my day!
LOL!

Here in the US, or maybe at least by me, Avon is not considered a high quality tire.

Second: high speed driving? I just got a speeding ticket for an 82 in a 65 last week. High speed driving here in the US is only in your dreams.

At about $160 each for a BFG 295-50-15, I can burn up almost three sets for the price of the Avons, but yes, technically you are correct. A V tire is available.
I put a set of Toyo Proxis S/T 295 50 15 on the rear and 245 50 15 on the ft check out my avatar for how it looks. I wound up googling ( is that a word?!) toyo tires with the size and then calling 4 pages of companys in order to find a set in Michigan.

I have not delt with the people below but a quick google found this.

Toyo Proxes S/t Tire P295/50r15
Toyo TiresToyo Tires Max Load = 2061;Tread Depth = 11;Overall Diameter = 26.5 for Jeep $132.99
http://jeepinguy.com/jeepinguy...hp?proddb=2&pid=3523

Now I think Dave and Linda Adler PI in Ca have some 305s if they have not sold them
quote:
Originally posted by Cowboy from Hell:
If it means anything to anyone ... LT stands for "light truck". Tires with LT at the end of the tire code are truck tires. This means they have more plies of steel & nylon in the sidewall, making the sidewalls stiffer, to prevent wheel damage when used off-road, and for carrying higher payloads. The rubber compounds are different as well, promoting longer tread life and less chance of damage (chunking) when used off road.

-G


Really? Cool! Baja! I'm in love.

Actually Cowboy, since I am in NY, the roads here are like a Baja for your life! Not just 500 miles! LOL!

There are no groundhogs to worry about, but the rats are the size of dogs. I hit one and at first thought it was a dog. I stopped and backed up. It was just a rat, and he was getting up. Must have just stunned him? Big Grin
Yes, 225-50 x 15s fit stock 7" Campys and 245-50-x 15 on 8" Campys both fit a stock Pantera front end. Tires in those sizes ARE available; what's not easily available are SPEED-RATED 15" tires. Finding V, Z or W-rated 15" tires isdifficult and when found they are not cheap. Larger width fronts reduces the understeer Ford built into the Pantera, as does changing anti-sway bar diameters and a host of other adjustments. Surprisingly, 8" Campys with 245-50s will steer easier than 225-50s on 7" Campys, due to the better scrub-radius of the 8" wheels.
PanteraDoug,

I got the aspect ratio using this size converter http://www.redrock4x4.com/tire...ButtonName=Calculate.

Glad you like the Sportsman S/R's. These are good for the rears but I think I'll need something different for the front (just as I had stated earlier). The Mickey Thompsons size 26X10.00R15LT ends up being metric size of 254/55/15.
That's too wide for me for fronts and the sidewall looks too tall. You can see this in the below photo. I think the rears look great but the sidewalls on the front look too tall:


Trying to match the S/R's tread pattern, I've found these:

http://www.wheelsnext.com/tire...O-Proxes%20R888.html

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/...lse&fromCompare1=yes

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/...GCID=C13674x012-tire

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quote:
Originally posted by pantera3322:
I was just told not having the same companys tires on the front and back will cause big handling problems . the larger BF Goodrich tires sounds good but the tires I have on the front now rub when you make a hard turn. Just would like to know if the 245 50 15 will they work .


That is an opinion. One with which I do not agree and I've been doing this a long time.

There is/are all sorts of BS permeated by the sales people at tire stores. They will tell you that you can't put two different size tires on a car also...and other Fairy Tales.

Do you know that when you tune a car for handling on a track most likely you will wind up with different tire pressures in all four tires? Let the experts explain that.



The BFG 245-50-15 will fit on the front with 8" Campis but you need to bend down the fender lips, possibly clearance the tire to the outer edges of the footboxes, and modify the windhield wiper motor cover. But yes if you accept that, it fits...I am told (Bosswrench).

I am also told that one car will require more work then another due to the production variations on the metal work from the factory.
Merging threads

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Wilson:
hey all I know there has been plenty of talk about 15 inch wheels and the lack of tyre avaliable to go on them. i press on regardless.

I have a set of 8's and 10's. here in nz i can locate 295 50 15s the best i can do is 225 50 15 for the front. the 225 seem a little stretched on the 8's.
the only 235 50 15 is a toyo 235 50 15 proxy R888
i was wondering about tyres with a 60 sized side all are there any thoughts re this, such as a 225 60 15
a
i can't find a 235 55 15 or a 235 45 15

Also what is the larges tyre that will safely fit under the front fenders of a stock pre l bodied car.

so comments please.

regards chris.

ps at this stage i am not prepared to go to the campy clones in bigger sizes.
225/50R15 is the correct size tire when the 15x8 Campys are used on the front. Its the factory size for that application. DeTomaso had the habit of using a tire on the widest wheel it was designed for. This makes the sidewall stiffer, reduces slip angles, sharpens response to driver input. The 225/50R18 has a fairly wide tread, about 8", so it fits an 8" wide wheel better than you may think.

The tire will fit and work fine on a 7" wide wheel too if that's your preference.

Regardless what tire you select, keep the front tire OD in the range of 24" to 25"

-G
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Wilson:
hey all I know there has been plenty of talk about 15 inch wheels and the lack of tyre avaliable to go on them. i press on regardless.

I have a set of 8's and 10's. here in nz i can locate 295 50 15s the best i can do is 225 50 15 for the front. the 225 seem a little stretched on the 8's.
the only 235 50 15 is a toyo 235 50 15 proxy R888
i was wondering about tyres with a 60 sized side all are there any thoughts re this, such as a 225 60 15
a
i can't find a 235 55 15 or a 235 45 15

Also what is the larges tyre that will safely fit under the front fenders of a stock pre l bodied car.

so comments please.

regards chris.

ps at this stage i am not prepared to go to the campy clones in bigger sizes.


The 225-50-15 works well on the 8" rim, or the 7". It is actually a small OD tire and lowers the front of the car about an inch. Be aware that if you have a US delivered car they had 1" spacers shimming the springs and if you take the spring spacers out, the lower radiator support is "way down there" vvvvvvvvvv(< arrows pointing down). My sons would say slammed but that is such ghetto term? Big Grin

Where as the car stock was about 43 inches high, it is now down there with the GT40 at around 40". The GT40 got it's name because it complied to the rule of being only 40 inches high. Wink

On my car, if I make a fist I have to turn it horizontal to fit under the nose. Verticle won't clear it.

The 295-50-15, probably a BFG, works ok on the back but the newer Mickey Thompsons, LT 26 x 12R15, although not high speed rated, fit really nice in the back on the 10" Campi. Fits the 8" too.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mtt-6654

It tends to give the car a slight rake, but you don't notice it while you are driving until you come up on a tractor/trailor when all of a sudden it seems like you can go right under the trailor? Eeker

This entire setup just lends itself to the feeling that the car is just some sort of a very highly powered Italian go cart? Works for me?

Ciao Bambino! Big Grin

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quote:
Originally posted by tajon:

Why is this George?


A front tire 25 inches in diameter fills the front fender arch quite fully, whereas a front tire smaller than 24 inches in diameter begins to look proportionally too small for the fender arch. Therefore front tire diameter should remain within the range of 23.9” to 25.0”. A rear tire 27 inches in diameter fills the rear fender arch quite fully, whereas a rear tire smaller than 26 inches in diameter begins to look proportionally too small for the rear fender arch. Therefore rear tire diameter should remain within the range of 25.9” to 27.0”. There is an aesthetic condition that must be considered when selecting tires. The front tires and rears tires should “fill” the front and rear fender arches equally. If a 25 inch diameter front tire is combined with a 26 inch diameter rear tire, there would be a situation where the front tire fills the front fender arch fully, while the rear tire would have a rather large clearance between it and the rear fender arch. There would be an aesthetic imbalance in the appearance of the car. As a result of this, the front and rear tires must go up or down in diameter together, or to put this another way the rear tires should be about 2 inches greater in diameter than the front tires (+/- 0.25 inch) in order for your Pantera to look its best. Therefore the diameter of the rear tire should be no less than 1.7” and no more than 2.3” larger than the front tire.

This also impacts the chassis ride height, i.e. the mechanical performance of the chassis. As the difference between front tire OD and rear tire OD decreases (less than 1.7") or increases (greater than 2.3") it "excessively" alters the chassis intended level ride height. This can be compensated for if the car has shocks with adjustable spring pre-load, but if the car has OEM shocks or red body Konis it can't.


Quickly, to set up a Pantera chassis with shocks having adjustable spring pre-load:

(1) set the rear ride height for level lower control arms (lowest setting, closest to OEM)

(2) set the front ride height to level the chassis. The chassis between the axles should be level with the ground, parallel to the ground, equal distance along its length to the ground. If you place a 2 foot bubble level on the door sills, they should be level. Leveling the chassis is important to give the chassis the "balance" that the designer intended it to have.

Changes to the front ride height will alter the bump-steer characteristics of the steering geometry, and the angles of the pivot axis of the upper and lower control arms. Changes to the rear ride height will alter the angles at which the half-shafts (and therefore u-joints) must operate at, plus the angles of the pivot axis of the upper and lower control arms. Combinations with greater front to rear difference in tire diameter make it necessary to raise the front of the car to level the chassis, this increases the gap between the front tire and front wheel arch. Combinations with less front to rear difference in tire diameter make it necessary to lower the front of the car to level the chassis; this reduces the gap between the front tire and the front wheel arch. Some guys do this intentionally in order to lower the CG of the car. Unfortunately this reduces ground clearance, and makes it hard to get a jack under the car.

The interaction of these parameters doesn't leave much room for customization, not like a good ol' American muscle car. But there's a lot of performance built into the Pantera chassis that those muscle cars will never have. If the front and rear tires are of the proper diameter, and their diameters are about 2" apart front to rear, and once the chassis is level, then control arm geometry, bump steer, front caster and appearance should all be "in the ball park". By appearance being in the ball park I mean the gap between the outside radius of the tires and the fender arch radius should be proportionally equal front tires to front fenders and back tires to back fenders. The tires should also be centered very well in the wheel arches. The factory set front caster should be at least 2-1/2 degrees, which is actually inadequate, it was originally intended to be 6 degrees, and should be at least 4 degrees. This causes the tires to lean into the turns, and gives the tires a better grip in corners. Ford intentionally dumbed-down the caster to 2-1/2 degrees in order to make the handling less responsive to driver input, i.e. that was how they "slowed" the cars handling. Ford also screwed-up the chassis set-up with the spacers they placed between the shocks and springs. and then there's the smaller rear anti-sway bar too.

The gearing, odometer, speedometer and rear wheel arch were all set-up for about 26.9" diameter rear tire. If the rear tires should be about 2" larger OD than the front tires, that means the front tires should be about 24.9" diameter.

Hope that gives you a feel for the interaction between all the components, and why we shouldn't stray to far from the originally intended settings.
I have an opinion, albeit one that few will agree with. I took my stock Campy wheels to the tire shop and had them fit whatever matched set of tires they had in stock (they have a performance-type tread pattern but were about $100 apiece, new).

You can go around and around discussing "correct" tire size, lack of availability of "correct" tires, speed ratings, etc.

I have yet to see or hear of any modern tire coming apart on any street-driven car, whether it's a sports car or Kia, b/c the speed rating was "too low." I routinely see folks driving on the freeway at 90+ mph for many miles, on off-the-shelf tires. Not once have I seen their tires disintegrate. How often do you really, truly, run your car at sustained speeds of over 100 mph on public roads? (don't answer that...) I'll bet there are not many folks here who have run over 100 for more than a few minutes anywhere for fear of the law. I haven't.

Perhaps if you spend most of your time at Talladega, then searching for the elusive super-speed-rated tires is worthwhile. However I chose not to spend $1,000+ on specialty Pantera wheels and $1,000+ on tires for a car that sees at best 1,000 miles per year. I oven-baked my stock wheels myself, had the tire shop put tires on, and spray-painted the wheels myself. The car has run at high freeway speeds and I've even drag-raced it. Everyone that sees it or rides in it comments on its superb handling and the good looks of the wheel/tire combo. The speedo reads pretty close. There is no mud nor rocks being thrown onto the body due to over-sized tires. Removing and installing the wheels is a breeze b/c they are light and small (relative to some aftermarket designs).

Again, I realize I am solidly in the minority here, and no one will agree w/ me, but my total investment is about $500 and the car still flies and gets many thumbs-up. My tires haven't exploded yet.

Just another option to ponder.
quote:
Originally posted by CB01:
I have an opinion, albeit one that few will agree with. I took my stock Campy wheels to the tire shop and had them fit whatever matched set of tires they had in stock (they have a performance-type tread pattern but were about $100 apiece, new).

You can go around and around discussing "correct" tire size, lack of availability of "correct" tires, speed ratings, etc.

I have yet to see or hear of any modern tire coming apart on any street-driven car, whether it's a sports car or Kia, b/c the speed rating was "too low." I routinely see folks driving on the freeway at 90+ mph for many miles, on off-the-shelf tires. Not once have I seen their tires disintegrate. How often do you really, truly, run your car at sustained speeds of over 100 mph on public roads? (don't answer that...) I'll bet there are not many folks here who have run over 100 for more than a few minutes anywhere for fear of the law. I haven't.

Perhaps if you spend most of your time at Talladega, then searching for the elusive super-speed-rated tires is worthwhile. However I chose not to spend $1,000+ on specialty Pantera wheels and $1,000+ on tires for a car that sees at best 1,000 miles per year. I oven-baked my stock wheels myself, had the tire shop put tires on, and spray-painted the wheels myself. The car has run at high freeway speeds and I've even drag-raced it. Everyone that sees it or rides in it comments on its superb handling and the good looks of the wheel/tire combo. The speedo reads pretty close. There is no mud nor rocks being thrown onto the body due to over-sized tires. Removing and installing the wheels is a breeze b/c they are light and small (relative to some aftermarket designs).

Again, I realize I am solidly in the minority here, and no one will agree w/ me, but my total investment is about $500 and the car still flies and gets many thumbs-up. My tires haven't exploded yet.

Just another option to ponder.


I saw a set of Firestones develope big bubbles in the sidewalls of the tires on a Shelby GT350.

Of course this was on a car that we counted made 37 runs on the dragstrip in one day by a guy we affectionately call "Mad Man" Aleberto.

I think they were F60-15's on 7" rims.

You are correct. They did not explode. MM kept driving with them to see if they would.

I personally have had chunks of tread come out of the tire on BFG's leaving nothing but the cord on two seperated occassions.

Neither of these tires were rated higher than S.

It all depends on where you look to find failed tires. The one place you don't want to hear of them is on your own car, but like all of us, "you pays your moneys, and ya' takes your chances".

As "Dirty Harry" once said..."do you feel lucky today...well do ya'?" Wink
Hi Chris...you helped me with the fan stuff..my turn to throw some info your way. I also have the 8 and 10 inch 15" campy's. They have the factory 225/50/15 on the front and 285/50/15's on the rear. The 225's are fine on the front. Lots of clearance. I wouldn't hesitate to use that size. I wish I had your problem. I have been trying to source 225/50/15's over here in Canada since last February without luck. hmmm...who's your supplier over there for the 225's..maybe I can get a quote for shipping. Again..go ahead with the 225/50/15 on the front...no problems...
Merging threads

quote:
Originally posted by johnek74Pantera:
Hi all. I have a new ( to me) 1974 "L" however it is fitted with 8" Campy's up front and 10"Campy's on the rear. I like the look of the rims and wish to keep them. I can't find a tire to replace the existing rears. They are 285/50/15's. Fronts are 225/50/15's and I have sourced a few of those, but nothing for the rears. Any suggestions aside from getting different rims? Does anyone know of a source for these tires or is there another size that will look the same and fit the rims? Thanks...
That size you are looking for is the Pirelli which hasn't been made in years.

Your best choices right now in the US are BFG 295-50-15 or Mickey Thompson LT 26-12R15.

Not to step on anyones action but buying new tires that are three years old or older is risky.

Particularly with high performance tires.

Depending on the quantity of anti oxidation chemicals in the rubber compound, the treads dry and crack.

The danger is of a high speed blowout by anything over 10 mph can be an issue also.

I have had chunks of the tread missing starting right around the three year old level.

Check the manufacturing date in the tire.

No matter how you take care of them, it doesn't matter. There is a time clock running on tires as soon as they come out of the mold.

Makes no sense in trying to save tread on them. Might as well just go out and burn them up.

The BFG's and the P7's are both susceptible to this drying out of the treads and cracking.

The P7's in my opion were only a good deal when they were more reasonably priced.

To pay over $400 per tire for them is foolish. They aren't the great of a design. The rubber compound sucks.

They are hard and do not stick well at all.

Where do you feel that you need a V rating? Where are you going to go 149 mph? Tell me please? I want to drive there too?

Go with the Mickey Thompsons. They are $233 each, which is what I payed for the P7's.
To quickly get an idea what tire availability is in any size, I use the "search for tires by size" feature at two on-line tire shops.

Tire Rack.com/

On Line Tires.com/

Tires in the original European GTS sizes were 225/50R15 front tires, 285/50R15 rear tires. Tires in the the original rear tire size aren't available, everybody substitutes 295/50R15.

If we ignore racing tires and tires rated LT for light trucks I found 5 tires in the 225/50R15 front tire size, having H, V or Y speed ratings. I also found 5 tires in the 295/50R15 rear tire size, unfortunately all of them were only speed rated S. Selecting the same make and model tires in the front as you select for the rear is not possible in these sizes.

-G
Tires to maximize 15" wheels are difficult if you require speed-rated tires and/or matching fronts & rears. Hoosier makes a couple, Avon of England makes some and a few Pantera vendors have some Pirellis in stock; none that I know of are 285-50 x 15, though. The slightly wider 295-50s are sometimes available as are slightly narrower 275-55 x 15". Expect to pay upwards of $400 per rear tire at best, and there may be a waiting period. Tire mfg is spotty ate best for performance 15". Try calling around- I know PPC-Carson City, NV (www.panteraparts.com) has some sources, as this comes up constantly. But its a very small market so the mfgrs do nothing.
There are some possibilities out there.

Michelin's TB series:

http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/page/michelin-tb5

Pirelli's P7 Corsa:

http://www.pirelli.com/tyre/ww...7_corsa_classic.html

And Hoosier's R6:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/...Hoosier&tireModel=R6

I've only used the R6 and they are fine on the street. They need a few minutes to warm up but are great after that initial period.

I would consider one of these three before any of the other older, less sporting tires that have been suggested.

LS
I've only driven a car equipped with S rated BFG T/As once. It was terrifying.

I sourced a set of new Z rated Yoko AVS intermediates for my car last year. These are recent production and were stored properly (sealed up) before use.

Their performance is nothing short of sensational at triple digit speeds.

When it comes time to replace, I will try the Michelin TB-5R next. I would like to get a tire with more recent development and technology on the car.

LS
quote:
Originally posted by lashss:
I've only driven a car equipped with S rated BFG T/As once. It was terrifying.

I sourced a set of new Z rated Yoko AVS intermediates for my car last year. These are recent production and were stored properly (sealed up) before use.

Their performance is nothing short of sensational at triple digit speeds.

When it comes time to replace, I will try the Michelin TB-5R next. I would like to get a tire with more recent development and technology on the car.

LS


The Yokos are nice tires BUT there are tires that even though they have DOT numbers on them and are street legal, have a very limited window of opportunity for street use.

For one thing, tire compound on some of these tires is designed for use within a narrow temperature range.

Many of them will become lethal as the temperature drops and by the time you reach under about 40 F can no longer be driven safely.

It's your money. Spend it how you choose to.
I have used a number of different R compound tires on the street over the years. Yoko A008 RS, Toyo RA1, Conti Grand Am Slicks, Hoosier A6 and most recently the Hoosier R6 and Toyo R888.

Only the Conti and the Hoosier R6 needed any real attention when cold. The others warmed up quickly.

I never really drive cars hard when the tires are cold. I always wait for water temp, oil temp, etc. to climb and by then the tires are warm also.

When warm, these R compounds will absolutely outperform any street tire to the point where I can't imagine driving a performance car without them. The warm performance benefit greatly outweighs any minimal extra care needed when cold.

I had a set of BFG Comp T/A 60 series tires on my old GT350. I switched to Toyo RA1s and it transformed the car. I now run R888s on it and have been similarly pleased.

Apparently the Michelin TBs last 3k miles of mixed use and have a modern tech R compound?

I believe our prayers have been answered.

LS
Sorry to hear you can't get the Toyo's where you are, had mine fited today and look great. Am trying not to gloat here. But very relieved that i managed to get some with no dificulty here in New Zealand.
And to rub it in I live in a small country town.
good luck with your serach.

Cj
Chris these are just different marketing areas.

The importer in your neck of the woods may think they have a large enough market to import these Toyos. The US importers think differently.

Goodyear sent me a weighted map of market sizes.
The LA map, just Los Angeles, is larger then all of Europe.

What that means simply is that LA minimum order rmay be 1,000 tires of one size while Europe may be 100.

The cost to a manufacturer like Pirelli to make a run of 285-50-15s of 100 at a time isn't attractive enough to put them on a regular schedule.

I think what has happened is that there certainly are thousands of "classic" cars still running that need 15" tires but their usage is so small mileage wise that they only need tires every 10 years and that's just because of dry rot on the rubber, not wear.

My personal feeling is that although P7's are what I have on the car, they aren't worth $500 each.

When they were $250 each, it was even marginal then. It isn't that good of a tire to begin with.

It tends to be a hot weather tire and the treads are slick and the tire is hard riding under 50 degrees.

At 40 degrees F, you park the car. They act alot like race tires and at that temperature you just can't get them hot and sticky. They are slick just like you are driving on snow.

They are ok if you live in Florida, Texas or southern California where you get a lot of sun and the road surface is hot, but up here in the Northeast, that's a different story.

We don't see the sun for months at a time.

The tires on my Shelby GT350 are BFG Radial T/As. They are fine for what I use the car for including high speed events. They are consistent and predictable and not scary at all. They see 140 more then you would think.

Like any tire, you need to know what it's limits are and how to inflate them.

In my opinion, none of them are what you want to drive fast with in the rain, and they have treads. What do you do with these street legal race tires with one or two water grooves? You can't even pick the spot where you want to run off of the road with them. The car picks it's own.

There is more to it in picking a tire then just size and speed ratings. The rubber compound is very important if you drive your car.

It's just my opinion but it is too dangerous for the average guy to use these street legal "race tires" on the street.

It is just an unsafe situation and public safety is at stake.

Most drivers, even driving enthusiasts are better off with a proven all around tire.

The alternative would be to have multiple sets of tires for different road conditions and change them as the road conditions change.

Maybe you can have your pit crew follow you in a chase truck and when you pit for gas, do a tire change too?

That's kind of impractical if you are taking the car on any kind of an extended trip.

If you want to debate which tire is best, fine, but let's start out with the original Goodyear Arrivas and see how far technology has come with them?

It might be surprising that it hasn't changed all that much.
PanteraDoug, no use for V rated tires?

Under 40 degree "driving" days?

No sun for months?

You're not selling NY very well to car people!

Smiler

I do agree with your statement about R compounds not being suitable for average drivers. At the same time I'm hoping the typical Detomaso driver is above average in their skill considering the power and chassis layouts involved.

If you drive your car only a few thousand miles a year, primarily during the warmer, salt free months and not in standing water, R compounds are a fine.

They become even more attractive if you really enjoy the increased performance in spirited driving.

I will never go back to street tires for my fun cars.

Just offering another perspective that brings three new tire options to the 15" dilemma.

LS
quote:
Originally posted by lashss:
PanteraDoug, no use for V rated tires?

Under 40 degree "driving" days?

No sun for months?

You're not selling NY very well to car people!

Smiler

I do agree with your statement about R compounds not being suitable for average drivers. At the same time I'm hoping the typical Detomaso driver is above average in their skill considering the power and chassis layouts involved.

If you drive your car only a few thousand miles a year, primarily during the warmer, salt free months and not in standing water, R compounds are a fine.

They become even more attractive if you really enjoy the increased performance in spirited driving.

I will never go back to street tires for my fun cars.

Just offering another perspective that brings three new tire options to the 15" dilemma.

LS


The truth hurts. Southern California is the place to be for high performance cars NOT NY.

You really need winter compound tires here for the cold weather months.

Some days the high for the day is 15. The tires get very hard and will not bite at all in turns.

R compounds have their benefits BUT one needs to know their limitations.

They are at their best on sunny days and temps about 85-90. They can get slick in high heat too.

I prefer not to think about that and just drive the car.

I pretty much know where the limitations are on a street tire but even so they can fool you too.

Even most weekend racers will go with an intermediate and stay with it and drive around it's limitations.

Not to kill any left over positive thoughts of NY further but I can't think of any place withing a hundred miles where I could use the benefits of a comp tire.

There are many places however that will do you in with them.

I wouldn't be any good with them anyway. I just don't get enough practice with them.
PanteraDoug, it sounds weird, but come down to DC for car culture and driving weather.

We typically drive, salt free and reasonably warm from March-mid December.

What are the Toyo Proxes S/T like? That could be a more modern alternative to the Arrivas and BFG balloons?

LS
quote:
Originally posted by lashss:
PanteraDoug, it sounds weird, but come down to DC for car culture and driving weather.

We typically drive, salt free and reasonably warm from March-mid December.

What are the Toyo Proxes S/T like? That could be a more modern alternative to the Arrivas and BFG balloons?

LS


Nah, I always get screwed up on Dupont Cirle and get in the wrong lane. Eeker
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:


I always get screwed up on Dupont Cirle and get in the wrong lane. Eeker


I was born and raised in the Md. suburbs and know the DC area like the back of my hand. And for those that know about Dupont Circle, THAT statement is fraught with mixed messages !!!!!!!
quote:
Originally posted by snaponbob:
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:


I always get screwed up on Dupont Cirle and get in the wrong lane. Eeker


I was born and raised in the Md. suburbs and know the DC area like the back of my hand. And for those that know about Dupont Circle, THAT statement is fraught with mixed messages !!!!!!!
Big Grin
quote:
And for those that know about Dupont Circle, THAT statement is fraught with mixed messages !!!!!!!


The neighborhood declined after World War II and particularly after the 1968 riots, but began to enjoy a resurgence in the 1970s, fueled by urban pioneers seeking an alternative lifestyle. The neighborhood took on a bohemian feel and became an area popular among the gay and lesbian community. Along with The Castro in San Francisco, Hillcrest in San Diego, Greenwich Village in New York City, Boystown in Chicago, Oak Lawn in Dallas, Montrose in Houston, and West Hollywood in Los Angeles, Dupont Circle is considered a historic locale in the development of American gay identity. D.C.'s first gay bookstore, Lambda Rising, opened in 1974 and gained notoriety nationwide.[15] In 1975, the store ran the world's first gay-oriented television commercial
The Dupont Circle neighborhood, which is listed on the National Register of Historic Places, is home to numerous embassies, many of which are located in historic residences. The Thomas T. Gaff House serves as the Colombian ambassador's residence, and the Walsh-McLean House is home to the Indonesian embassy.Located east of Dupont Circle on Massachusetts Avenue is the Clarence Moore House, now known as the Embassy of Uzbekistan, and the Emily J. Wilkins House, which formerly housed the Australian embassy and now is occupied by the Peruvian Chancery.
Other landmarks, many of which are listed on the National Register of Historic Places, include the International Temple, Embassy Gulf Service Station, Christian Heurich Mansion (also known as Brewmaster's Castle), Whittemore House (headquarters to the Woman's National Democratic Club), and the Phillips Collection, the country's first museum of modern art. The Richard H. Townsend House located on Massachusetts Avenue now houses the Cosmos Club.[24] The Dumbarton Bridge, also known as the Buffalo Bridge, carries Q Street over Rock Creek Park and into Georgetown and was constructed in 1883.[24] The Nuns of the Battlefield sculpture, which serves as a tribute to over 600 nuns who nursed soldiers of both armies during the Civil War was erected in 1924.[26][27] The Mansion on O Street a luxury boutique hotel, private club, events venue and museum has been a fixture in Dupont Circle for over 30 years and includes over 100 rooms and 32 secret doors. The Brickskeller Inn & Bar has long been a popular bar in the neighborhood.
Curiously, one of my last random Detomaso sightings was in Dupont. It was a black L with tinted windows...looked fantastic. Also, one of my first Detomaso sightings was in the south end years ago...red Pre L with black trim. I was in my 308 and we drove alongside each other to Georgetown...sounded amazing.
quote:
Originally posted by lashss:
Curiously, one of my last random Detomaso sightings was in Dupont. It was a black L with tinted windows...looked fantastic. Also, one of my first Detomaso sightings was in the south end years ago...red Pre L with black trim. I was in my 308 and we drove alongside each other to Georgetown...sounded amazing.


He was probably looking for new tires there?
Hoosier makes a 245 and a 275 in 15" diameters. These may be a good choice for those running 8s and 10s on a narrow body car.

If anyone wants to try the Hoosier R6s without splurging for a new set, JB Racing Tires has used ones for $50-80.

I've used them before when experimenting with unfamiliar tires.

Jb Racing Tires
John & Mike
4985 Hwy 50
Delavan WI 53115
Office: 262-740-0180
Cell: 262-903-4235
Web-site: www.jbracingtires.net
They do have DOT stamps on them...so up to the officer to decide. I live in an area where they are lenient with antique vehicles.

We also have an avg 44 week driving season, warm temps, nice roads within 15 miles of downtown, thousands of exotics, multiple car shows each weekend, no emissions testing, cheap antique car registration...sorry will stop there.

LS
Has anyone tired these Hoosiers?
http://www.hoosiertire.com/strttire.htm

I've never heard of them before (this "Pro-Street Radial" line, not Hoosier). There look to be some sizes that may be suitable (if a bit "tall") for Panteras with wider 15" dia. wheels. They are H-speed rated and ARE DOT Highway (but NOT racing) approved.

See flyer:
http://www.hoosiertire.com/pdfs/prostr.pdf

In typical Hoosier fashion, the sizes are not normal P-Metric, but inch-height-width sizing.

Mark
I have just ordered a pair of Avon CR6ZZ 295/50r15 for my 74L (currently on special from vintagetyres.com) and was wondering if anybody has any suggestions for a V rated 225/50R15 front tire which would work well with the Avons?

I live in the UK so normal air temperature range can be 50-75f (10-25c). I don't tend to drive the car in the wet, though inevitably I will get caught in the rain from time to time. I only use the car for road driving so it will not be tracked.

I was looking at the new Toyo R888R, but not sure if that will be suitable? I also notice Pirelli do the Cinurato P7 classic tire?

Thanks
Stephen
quote:
Originally posted by Stee:
I have just ordered a pair of Avon CR6ZZ 295/50r15 for my 74L (currently on special from vintagetyres.com) and was wondering if anybody has any suggestions for a V rated 225/50R15 front tire which would work well with the Avons?

I live in the UK so normal air temperature range can be 50-75f (10-25c). I don't tend to drive the car in the wet, though inevitably I will get caught in the rain from time to time. I only use the car for road driving so it will not be tracked.

I was looking at the new Toyo R888R, but not sure if that will be suitable? I also notice Pirelli do the Cinurato P7 classic tire?

Thanks
Stephen


Pirelli P7, 225-50-15. The only issue I have found with them is cold weather. The tread compound seems not to be designed to stick well in cold weather. Cold weather defined as being under about 35F.

They really would be a perfect LA tire, but what isn't?

Run them at 35psi. They will work on the 7 or 8" rims. Mine are on 8"s.

They don't take any practice to "learn them" and seem to stay the same on the street or on the track.

The rear tires in that size are going to change the rear bite some in turns. I think a tire that is a little slick in the back is a little better then one that bites too much.

I don't know how that particular tread and compound works though. Sorry.

Race "slicks", by comparison, get their traction from a controlled slide through the turns. Those you need to learn how to use.



You can put the bigger GTS rear anti-sway bar on the car but make sure you take the spring spacers out (if you have a US car). You want to reduce the roll in cornering as much as you can to make the tires work.

Oh, and watch your ground clearance in the front. The car is like a go cart with them on. Wink
Agree on the matching Avon CR6ZZ front when possible.

There are many new 15" options available. Enough to make running original wheels almost confusing with choices.

I would also ask Longstone for advice if you are mixing and matching.

I am running the Toyo R888R on the front with P Zero Pirellis on the rear. The combination has been excellent for performance.

LSJ
Thanks everyone for their help so far. A match set would be nice but I have 8" in the front.

Avon do a 225/60R15 but I am not sure if I will have clearance issues at the front? I was also trying to take George's advice on trying to get the same fill of the wheel arches front and back which a 225/50R15 would do better.

I don't mind a mixed set, and I am interested in others members experiences. So thanks for your sharing your experiences of the P7's and the R888R'r.

I will try Longstone for some advice when they open this week.

Thanks
Stephen
quote:
Originally posted by René #4406:
OEM 185/70/15 diameter is 25.2"

and 225/60/15 diameter is 25,6"

225/50/15 diameter is only 23,9"


The difference is that with the 225/60 if you make a fist and hold it vertically, you can slide it under the lower front radiator support.

With the 50, you have to turn your first vertically to clear it.
Hi

I have to say De Tomaso are possibly one of the trickiest cars to find tyre fitment for.

Pirelli have made quite a few new tyres that might be of interest to you guys https://www.longstonetyres.co....relli-cinturato.html

They are also making a new tyre 285/40R15 Cinturato P7 which i beleive is a tyre that might be of interest to Pantera people. They do currently make a 225/50R15 P7 and a 205/50R15 P7. Any day now i should have a 345/35R15 P7. https://www.longstonetyres.co....li-cinturato/p7.html

I hope these are useful to you.
Hi Dougal,
It is great that there are some quality classic tyres with decent speed ratings coming on to the market for our cars. However, it would be great if you could convince them to make a matching 285/50/15 or 295/50/15 for the 10 inch back wheels, as the 285/40/15s are far too small - they are the front tyres for the wide body cars.
Cheers, Tim.
quote:
Originally posted by Timsteren:
Hi Dougal,
It is great that there are some quality classic tyres with decent speed ratings coming on to the market for our cars. However, it would be great if you could convince them to make a matching 285/50/15 or 295/50/15 for the 10 inch back wheels, as the 285/40/15s are far too small - they are the front tyres for the wide body cars.
Cheers, Tim.


+1.

Yup I need 295-50-15 minimum for the rear with 10x15" wheels. 305's would be perfect though.

Avon currently does make them.
quote:

Originally posted by www.longstone.com:

... I have to say De Tomaso are possibly one of the trickiest cars to find tyre fitment for ...




Dougal

Three tyre "sets" will suffice for all but the last 40 Panteras that were manufactured.

One "set" of tyres the Pantera world needs is 285/40R15 and 345/35R15 for the wide body versions of the Pantera, i.e. the GT5 and GT5-S. There were a small number of Panteras for which these sizes were original equipment, and the Panteras which have been customized as Group 4 race car replicas also need these tires. It appears this set of tyres is now available, which is certainly good news for the owners who need these tires.

Another "set" of tyres the Pantera world needs is 225/50R15 and 285/50R15 for the GTS and Group 3 versions of the Pantera. There are a small number of Panteras for which these sizes were original equipment. It appears the front tyre is already available, but the rear tyre is yet to be made available.

However, the majority of Pantera owners would profit by a "set" composed of 225/55R15 front and 275/55R15 rear. The tyres were the ideal upgrade for Panteras originally equipped with 185/70R15 and 215/70R15 radial tyres, or C60 & H60 Goodyear Arrivas; which is by far the majority of Panteras manufactured. Those cars have 15x7 front wheels, and 15x8 rear wheels. All 5200 Panteras exported to the US were so equipped, the earliest Panteras sold in Europe were also so equipped. Many owners chose to upgrade to 15x10 rear wheels, an option once available via the factory, and via Hall Pantera in the US. That option is still available today via the aftermarket. That set of "55 series" tyres had the proper outside diameters (24.74" front & 26.91" rear). The front tyres were the ideal width for the 15x7 front campy wheels, the rear tyres were rated for 15x8 wheels minimum width to 15x10 wheels maximum width; so they fit the rear wheels no matter which rear wheels the Pantera had been fitted with.

Strange that the front 225/55R15 tyre fell out of availability because it was original equipment on 3 series BMWs (1992 through 1997). BMW owners would certainly be another market for the 225/55R15 tyres. The 275/55VR15 tyres were OEM on the Bentley Turbo R (1985 through 1992).

If you have any "pull" with Pirelli, and could influence the availability of the 285/50R15 tyre for the second set and the "55 series" tyres for the third set, you would have the De Tomaso market cornered. Something to consider anyway.

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quote:
Dougal

Three tyre "sets" will suffice for all but the last 40 Panteras that were manufactured.

One "set" of tyres the Pantera world needs is 285/40R15 and 345/35R15 for the wide body versions of the Pantera, i.e. the GT5 and GT5-S. There were a small number of Panteras for which these sizes were original equipment, and the Panteras which have been customized as Group 4 race car replicas also need these tires. It appears this set of tyres is now available, which is certainly good news for the owners who need these tires.


We will get the 345/35R15 Cinturato P7 very soon.
285/40R15 Cinturato P7 will be a few months yet.
They will be listed on here when they come in. https://www.longstonetyres.co....li-cinturato/p7.html
I must say i am a bit releived because i had asked Pirelli to make the 285/40. the wheels are inn motion, then i noticed earlier in this post there is a table that only lists the 285/50. i thought we were making a size nobody wanted.



quote:
Another "set" of tyres the Pantera world needs is 225/50R15 and 285/50R15 for the GTS and Group 3 versions of the Pantera. There are a small number of Panteras for which these sizes were original equipment. It appears the front tyre is already available, but the rear tyre is yet to be made available.


Pirelli do already make a 225/50R15 Cinturato P7 https://www.longstonetyres.co....relli-cinturato.html

My guess is that if we sell the 285/40R15 Cinturato P7. then i can go back to Pirelli and ask for a 285/50R15.

quote:
However, the majority of Pantera owners would profit by a "set" composed of 225/55R15 front and 275/55R15 rear. The tyres were the ideal upgrade for Panteras originally equipped with 185/70R15 and 215/70R15 radial tyres, or C60 & H60 Goodyear Arrivas; which is by far the majority of Panteras manufactured. Those cars have 15x7 front wheels, and 15x8 rear wheels. All 5200 Panteras exported to the US were so equipped, the earliest Panteras sold in Europe were also so equipped. Many owners chose to upgrade to 15x10 rear wheels, an option once available via the factory, and via Hall Pantera in the US. That option is still available today via the aftermarket. That set of "55 series" tyres had the proper outside diameters (24.74" front & 26.91" rear). The front tyres were the ideal width for the 15x7 front campy wheels, the rear tyres were rated for 15x8 wheels minimum width to 15x10 wheels maximum width; so they fit the rear wheels no matter which rear wheels the Pantera had been fitted with.


Flippin heck! Pantera fitment is complicated.

Sadly, although Pirelli have most of sizes you want, we sadly end up with a mixture of tread pattern.

185/70VR15 - easy we have a Cinturato CN36 which is great and would look super cool https://www.longstonetyres.co....nturato-cn36-n4.html

unfortunately they don't make a 215/70VR15 in the CN36 tread pattern, but they do make a 215/60VR15 https://www.longstonetyres.co....pirelli-cn36-n4.html my guess is that will be too small in diameter

However they do make a 215/70VR15 CN12! https://www.longstonetyres.co....-cinturato-cn12.html

I suppose at least they are still the same manufacturer. and they do have high speed rating.

In the bigger sizes; could you get away with fitting a 205/70WR15 Cinturato CN12 on the front? https://www.longstonetyres.co....-cinturato-cn12.html

Because Pirelli do currently make a 255/60VR15 Cinturato CN12 https://www.longstonetyres.co....-cinturato-cn12.html (a 255/60R15 is close to a 275/55R15. The Muira SV fitted 255/60, and so did the Aston Martin Vantage. However because it wasn't available for some time both those cars have had to fit the CR6ZZ 275/55R15, which although it is a great track tyre isn't really ideal for a road car, specially if it doesn't do many miles.

We do sell the CR6ZZ too https://www.longstonetyres.co....s/avon-cr6zz/15.html

All our tyre pages show the dimentyions of the tyres if you want to work stuff out.

quote:
Strange that the front 225/55R15 tyre fell out of availability because it was original equipment on 3 series BMWs for many years. BMW owners would certainly be another market for the 225/55R15 tyres. I have no recollection of what the original application for 275/55R15 tyres had been.


I guess Avon do make a 225/60 https://www.longstonetyres.co....vr15-avon-cr6zz.html

quote:
If you have any "pull" with Pirelli, and could influence the availability of the 285/50R15 tyre for the second set and the "55 series" tyres for the third set, you would have the De Tomaso market cornered. Something to consider anyway.


Maybe.

CN36 - CN12 - P7

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I'm leaning towards the Avon's with the outer wall shaved and GOODYEAR letters applied.

For the use I put the car to, they are fine and seem more appropriate to the car then the Pirelli's are.

I currently have P7's on it now but they need to be freshened up due to age.



I agree that the Avon TENDS to be more of a race tire then a street tire but for my use they are fine.

The difference is basically because of the softer compound on the Avons vs. the P7's. The Pirelli's are a little hard on the treads compound and basically are banana skins by the time the temps drop under 40 degrees.


I'm getting reliable reports of the Avon's delivering 20,000 mile wear. By the time I put another 20,000 miles on this car, I'll already have been dead 10 years.



US cars were delivered with Goodyear's and here, raced with "Bluestreaks". They seem to me as appropriate or more so then the Pirelli's do for a US car. Particularly with my racer on the street perspective. Kind of like a Cobra 427 S/C.

The blue streak on those tires then and these Avon's now are painted on and optional. It can be left off.

This is a pricey decision since it's an $800 upcharge to do the sidewalls like this.

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Theoretically these tyres should have this heighth of side wall (these are the calculations. actual tyres sizes vary a little)

285/50 = 142.5mm (50% of 285mm)
295/50 = 147.5mm
285/55 = 156.75mm (55% of 285mm)

255/60 = 153mm
275/55 = 151.25mm
215/70 = 150.5mm

Really on an 8" wide wheel
with a profile above 50% you can go from 225 - 285
with a profile below 50% 205 - 245
This i believe is recommended - not necessarily law. however that could vary from country to country

Looking again at George P's chart. I'm wondering if you could use Pirelli's 215/60R15 CN36 on the front of the 60% profile mid '70s era

Interestingly (maybe only to a nerd like me) De Tommaso were right on it because i beleive that 60% profile tyres were only just developed in the second half of 1972. I am suprised to see Good year making them that early. Untill now i thought the first was Pirelli Cinturato CN36
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I'm leaning towards the Avon's with the outer wall shaved and GOODYEAR letters applied.



For the use I put the car to, they are fine and seem more appropriate to the car then the Pirelli's are.


I like your printing and the Avon carcass is the right shape (a large part of why they handle well on cars of this period). but the tread pattern looks nothing like a '70s tyre.

quote:
I currently have P7's on it now but they need to be freshened up due to age.

Age is critical. you cannot compare an old rubber with new. Its like comparing Granite with modern rubber

[QUOTE]I agree that the Avon TENDS to be more of a race tire then a street tire but for my use they are fine.


agreed, however a harsher ride and heavier than a road tyre.


quote:
The difference is basically because of the softer compound on the Avons vs. the P7's. The Pirelli's are a little hard on the treads compound and basically are banana skins by the time the temps drop under 40 degrees.


You cannot compare compounds you must be talking about some old rubber you have. the new P7's, when they come, will be made with up to date rubber compounds. the compounds in the old P7 will not be as sophisticated as the new production of P7.

The Avon is a racing tyre and will be great when it gets hot, but as it goes through heat cycles, racing compounds will work better, but deteriorate and loose grip with age faster than a road tyre.

However any tyre doesn't work at all well when it is 10 years old. but i would rather drive on a 7 year old road tyre than a 5 year old racing tyre.

quote:
I'm getting reliable reports of the Avon's delivering 20,000 mile wear. By the time I put another 20,000 miles on this car, I'll already have been dead 10 years.


As the tyre gets older with age and heat cycles the compounds deteriorate and give less grip. As the tyre grips less the wear rate slows down. so if you fit a really old tyre that doesn't grip it will last for ages, because there is less movement in hard rubber that doesn't move. Racing compounds are built to achieve different goals.

It sounds like i am slamming the CR6ZZ. i'm not they are great. However i know what i would rather have as a road car. and i know what i would rather be driving on when the tyres are 6 years old. Specially if i lived in a hot dry country!

quote:
US cars were delivered with Goodyear's and here, raced with "Bluestreaks". They seem to me as appropriate or more so then the Pirelli's do for a US car. Particularly with my racer on the street perspective. Kind of like a Cobra 427 S/C.

The blue streak on those tires then and these Avon's now are painted on and optional. It can be left off.

This is a pricey decision since it's an $800 upcharge to do the sidewalls like this.


Hmm i get that a Goodyear would be more correct, but a CR6ZZ isn't, and it is also a new tyre I think from memory it was a new retro tyre range that that begann in the '90s. It is a shame for Avon that they didn't use a period tread pattern.

The tread patterns of the Pirelli are actually period correct. I guess also the Pirelli is cheaper and more suited to the road https://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/tyres/215-70x15.html this page demonstrated the prices of 215/70r15 tyres and a 255/60 Pirelli costs £ 339 compared to Avon 275/55 £ 368

PanteraDoug

I'm sorry i feel like a bit of a tosser recommending alternatives to your Avon's. no doubt they look epic with the printing on the side. On top of that you do also get to have the same tread pattern front and rear which is seeming a bit of a pain in the Bum with the Pirelli Cinturato range. and no doubt the CR6ZZ is a great tyre so i am sorry if i sound like i am criticizing your choice. many of these Pirelli have only just been made again, so i bet they weren't there when you started making decisions. And the CR6ZZ carcass is built to be progressive, and handle great on old cars.
There is no perfect choice here. I have to go with tastes rather than correctness.

Look. The Pantera is an American-Italian hybrid.

If I'm in Italy I wear the P7's, here I wear the
Avon-Goodyears.

The Italian side of the family gets insulted for Americanizing the car. Good for them? Roll Eyes

HERE the "Goodyears" are PROBABLY more correct for a Grp4 Pantera then the Pirelli's? In addition, they more closely resemble the Goodyear Arriva's then the Pirelli's do?


I lean more to the '60s cars plus the early '70s such as the Cobra, the GT40, the Shelby Mustangs. The Pantera is their Italian cousin who moved here from Italy.

In Rome, do as the Romans do. In the US...

The Avon tread pattern is my least favorite part of the tire. It does resemble the tread of the Goodyear blue streaks as well as the Goodyear Polyglass tire.

The tread looks dead nuts on to the first GT40's.


It just comes down to taste. This is like debating over Momma Celeste's Lasagna. I like some sweet sausage mixed into it and a crispy baked top layer.

My Italian cousin says I'm crazy. That's fine. I wear that like a red badge of courage!

It would make sense then that I like Pinot Grigio with the Lasagna rather then Merlot?

Actually Bud Light is even better. Great taste, less filling.

I don't wear socks with my sandals. What can I say? I'm an independent thinker...sometimes.

Chow bambino. Big Grin


In the US, the 69 Shelby's were one of the first, if not the first to be factory installed with 60 profiles Goodyear Polyglass GT tires (F60-15). Wink
quote:

Originally posted by www.longstone.com:

... Flippin heck! Pantera fitment is complicated ...



Smiler Yeah, tyres that vary in cross-section by 30mm to 60mm, plus vary in diameter front to rear by 2 inches.

Thank you for taking time to answer member's questions, to update us regarding tyre availability, and to investigate matching your inventory with our needs.

I am not aware of any owner, not even among those whom are most discriminating in regards to originality, that want to equip their car with a 185/70 & 215/70 tyre set. I would discourage you from putting any effort in that direction.

Oddly, back in the 1990s when the 225/55 and 275/55 P7 tyres were available, most owners were not aware they existed as an option (when combined) for the Pantera. Considering the popularity of the P7 in that era, if owners had been aware many would have opted for that tyre set rather than continuing to use the Goodyear Arrivas.

Some owners adopted use of 225/50 and 285/50 P7s 20 to 30 years ago, only to have the rear tyre fall-out of production. Many chose not to upgrade to the 50 series P7s however, because their diameters were wrong or because they refused to purchase the requisite 15x10 rear wheels (Pantera wheels are magnesium and expensive).

Today many owners "settle on" or "tolerate" 205/60 or 215/60 in the front and 245/60 or 255/60 in the rear for lack of anything better. All have given-up on ever having speed rated performance radials available again for their cars. Many have given up on having the same make and model tyres on the front and rear. Some have taken to using truck tyres like the Pirelli Scorpion, others have taken to using street legal race tyres. Other owners have upgraded to larger diameter wheels so they can use modern low profile tyres; but with the rising value of the Pantera, and the emphasis on originality, many who installed the larger wheels would prefer to return to the original wheels IF a good set of tyres were available for them (I'm one of those myself). I firmly believe a great many Pantera owners would embrace a 225/55 and 275/55 tyre set in a speed rated radial with modern rubber compounds and construction (i.e. the P7 reproductions).

I've altered the last chart I posted, splitting it into two, adding production numbers.

Cheers.

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For the standard body cars, I think that the 225/50/15 fronts and 285/50/15 rears fit well and looks nice. If I remember correctly, I had the 285’s mounted on my 8” wheels before I purchased the 10” wheels. Due to the offset of the 10’s and the 285’s, the fit was pretty much flush with the body. A tire too much wider might stick out past the body a bit. Due to the lack of availability, I have upgraded to larger wheels and brakes. I think it would be great if they started producing some of these sizes again.
quote:
Originally posted by René #4406:
I do not understand why ask for 285x50x15, the diameter is 3,1% smaller than the 255x60x15. Why not ask for 295x50x15 or 285x55x15?

What is the maximum width that can be mounted on Campy 8x15?


Pirelli did make the 285/50/15. I don’t think Pirelli ever made a 295/50/15 or 285/55/15,
The picture is of the Mickey Thompson 26x12-15 fits well on the 10" wheel also. It's right in that 285-295 range.
-section: 12.0
-tread: 10.60
-OD: 26.10
-wheel:8-10
-price: $238.50
-speed rating H = 130mph


The 305 BFG's Euro rally tire is right on the verge of hanging out. The 285 is acceptable but the 295-50-15 is about as "perfect" as you can get unless you go to the 17" aftermarket Campi look alike's.

I would go for 295-50-15 P7's if they became available.
The BFG would be a substitute for that currently.
-section:12.2
-tread: 10.0'
-od: 26.7
-wheel: 8-10
-speed rating: S = 112 mph
-price: $210.40


I personally like the fit of the 225-50-15 P7's on the front on 8" Campi's but it does lower the front just a hair.

I'm not that concerned with the speed rating of the tires. V or better is nice but S was fine even on the Autobahn long before the V became available.

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quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
The Mickey Thompson 26x12-15 fits well on the 10" wheel also. It's right in that 285-295 range.

The 305 BFG's Euro rally tire is right on the verge of hanging out. The 285 is acceptable but the 295-50-15 is about as "perfect" as you can get unless you go to the 17" aftermarket Campi look alikes.

I would go for 295-50-15 P7's if they became available.

I personally like the fit of the 225-50-15 P7's on the front on 8" Campi's but it does lower the front just a hair.

I'm not that concerned with the speed rating of the tires. V or better is nice but S was fine even on the Autobahn long before the V became available.


It is true in the United States but in Europe, and especially in Germany which is only a few tens of kilometers from my home, there are freeways where the speed is free and with 400, 450, ... 500 CV a Pantera must be able to approach 200 mph and compete with Porsche, Ferrari and other AMG.
Jimmy, the max front tire size I found usable was 245-50 (or better- 245-40), which fit well on 8" Campys and clear -barely- the outer fenders. With a few strategically placed dents here and there, they also clear the inner fenders, the windshield wiper shield and the left cowl drain-pipe. This mostly happens in full-lock turns with two people aboard. Tires that size have been on the front of our car for some 20 yrs of street use including track days and autocrossing.

This is with the factory spring spacers removed, front fender lips rolled the max, a 2 degree nose lowering and with -4 degrees of caster. Extra caster pulls the wheels back toward the cabin, making contact with things that formerly had plenty of clearance in turns- like front brake hose routings and the wiper shield. Radical lowering does the same.

Most tire clearance problems on our '72 'L' were on the left side, as many unmolested Pantera front clips seem to be slightly asymmetric from the factory. I suspect multiple factory weld-jigs were used to complete the shells and were not quite identical, or maybe the L models got a second, asymmetric jig. Avon and Hoosier sell usable street-DOT 245-40 x 15s.
quote:
Originally posted by Bosswrench:
Jimmy, the max front tire size I found usable was 245-50 (or better- 245-40), which fit well on 8" Campys and clear -barely- the outer fenders. With a few strategically placed dents here and there, they also clear the inner fenders, the windshield wiper shield and the left cowl drain-pipe. This mostly happens in full-lock turns with two people aboard. Tires that size have been on the front of our car for some 20 yrs of street use including track days and autocrossing.

This is with the factory spring spacers removed, front fender lips rolled the max, a 2 degree nose lowering and with -4 degrees of caster. Extra caster pulls the wheels back toward the cabin, making contact with things that formerly had plenty of clearance in turns- like front brake hose routings and the wiper shield. Radical lowering does the same.



Most tire clearance problems on our '72 'L' were on the left side, as many unmolested Pantera front clips seem to be slightly asymmetric from the factory. I suspect multiple factory weld-jigs were used to complete the shells and were not quite identical, or maybe the L models got a second, asymmetric jig. Avon and Hoosier sell usable street-DOT 245-40 x 15s.


I probably should have clarified this, the 285/50/15’s that were mounted on the 8’s were on the rear. I had a 215/60/15 on 7” rims that were on the front of the car. Those tires came on the car. The rears had a tall 60 series that came on the car as well. I thought they were a little too tall. I found out that the 285/50/15 would fit on the 15x8’s so I put those tires on the 15x8’s until I found a set of 15x10’s. If there was a potential for these tires to be made, I would have kept the stock set up and not gone with the bigger Campy style wheels.(17x8 245/40/17 front,18x11.5 335/30/18 rear). I agree with regards to the front’s. I wouldn’t think a tire much bigger than a 245 would fit on the front of a narrow body without modifications.
Hi

I suppose here are my suggestions from what is available currently

early cars are easy 185/70VR15 and 215/70VR15 are both available from Avon CR6ZZ https://www.longstonetyres.co....yres/avon-cr6zz.html or Michelin XWX https://www.longstonetyres.co....es/michelin-xwx.html I would fit XWX. they are more of a road tyre. Pirelli make both these sizes, but not in the same tread pattern. and XWX is of course correct. XWX came out at the end of the '60s and was their flag ship tyre which was being fitted to cars like 6.9 Mercedes Ferrari's, and the early Countach.

this gets tricky. Goodyear aren't making any classic tyres. (except a few crossply tyres for pre war Model A Ford). we would really like to go down the rout of Pirelli's CN12, https://www.longstonetyres.co....-cinturato/cn12.html because it is period (1971). It has a very high speed rating (W), they are the only company to make the correct 255/60VR15. It wouldn't suprise meif they were a European option, becvause not many commpanies made thsi size tyre, but Pirelli did for the Aston Martin Vantage and the Lamborghini Muira SV. However Pirelli don't make a 205/60VR15 (why would you. it is not a comon classic car size) Pirelli do make a 205/70WR15 Cinturato CN12 which is high performance and matches the 255/60WR15 CN12 Rear. I suppose the question is can you fit a 205/70WR15 in the front. They will be a b it taller. Pirelli do also make a 215/60R15 CN36 wich will bit a little larger, but have a different tread pattern. However all these CN12 and CN36 tread patterns will be great road tyres and handle really well. The next best option i would think will again be Avon CR6 ZZ they do make a 275/55 https://www.longstonetyres.co....vr15-avon-cr6zz.html then you are left with the choice of 205/70VR15 or 215/60R15 again. If 205/70VR15 fits then you will be better off on the road with Pirelli, but if you need to fit 215/60R15 or 185/70VR15 then you do have the option of having the same tread pattern. Although i am a fan of same smaaller tyres on cars i think if you up the size of the rear, reverting back to 185/70 on the front could lead to some dramatic under steer, with the power on. I still think if you can fit 205/70 on the fron CN12 is the best option.

225/50R15 is easy https://www.longstonetyres.co....relli-cinturato.html they are on the shelf. what you do for the 285/50R15 rears for now i don't know, with there being only 100 cars it is difficult to ask a tyre manufacturer to make them

285/40R15 easy they are on the way from Pirelli. 345/35R15 No problem. i should have them in a month or so https://www.longstonetyres.co....li-cinturato-p7.html
quote:
Originally posted by www.longstone.com

225/50R15 is easy https://www.longstonetyres.co....relli-cinturato.html they are on the shelf. what you do for the 285/50R15 rears for now i don't know, with there being only 100 cars it is difficult to ask a tyre manufacturer to make them

285/40R15 easy they are on the way from Pirelli. 345/35R15 No problem. i should have them in a month or so https://www.longstonetyres.co....li-cinturato-p7.html


Hi Dougal, the 285/50/15 will fit on all of the narrow body cars, which is ~ 5000+ cars. I had the 285/50/15’s mounted on my 15x8” rear rims first then switched them to the 15x10’s later on. So the 285/50/15’s will work on a lot more than 100 cars.
quote:
Originally posted by www.longstone.com:
Hi

I suppose here are my suggestions from what is available currently

early cars are easy 185/70VR15 and 215/70VR15 are both available from Avon CR6ZZ https://www.longstonetyres.co....yres/avon-cr6zz.html or Michelin XWX https://www.longstonetyres.co....es/michelin-xwx.html I would fit XWX. they are more of a road tyre. Pirelli make both these sizes, but not in the same tread pattern. and XWX is of course correct. XWX came out at the end of the '60s and was their flag ship tyre which was being fitted to cars like 6.9 Mercedes Ferrari's, and the early Countach.

this gets tricky. Goodyear aren't making any classic tyres. (except a few crossply tyres for pre war Model A Ford). we would really like to go down the rout of Pirelli's CN12, https://www.longstonetyres.co....-cinturato/cn12.html because it is period (1971). It has a very high speed rating (W), they are the only company to make the correct 255/60VR15. It wouldn't suprise meif they were a European option, becvause not many commpanies made thsi size tyre, but Pirelli did for the Aston Martin Vantage and the Lamborghini Muira SV. However Pirelli don't make a 205/60VR15 (why would you. it is not a comon classic car size) Pirelli do make a 205/70WR15 Cinturato CN12 which is high performance and matches the 255/60WR15 CN12 Rear. I suppose the question is can you fit a 205/70WR15 in the front. They will be a b it taller. Pirelli do also make a 215/60R15 CN36 wich will bit a little larger, but have a different tread pattern. However all these CN12 and CN36 tread patterns will be great road tyres and handle really well. The next best option i would think will again be Avon CR6 ZZ they do make a 275/55 https://www.longstonetyres.co....vr15-avon-cr6zz.html then you are left with the choice of 205/70VR15 or 215/60R15 again. If 205/70VR15 fits then you will be better off on the road with Pirelli, but if you need to fit 215/60R15 or 185/70VR15 then you do have the option of having the same tread pattern. Although i am a fan of same smaaller tyres on cars i think if you up the size of the rear, reverting back to 185/70 on the front could lead to some dramatic under steer, with the power on. I still think if you can fit 205/70 on the fron CN12 is the best option.

225/50R15 is easy https://www.longstonetyres.co....relli-cinturato.html they are on the shelf. what you do for the 285/50R15 rears for now i don't know, with there being only 100 cars it is difficult to ask a tyre manufacturer to make them

285/40R15 easy they are on the way from Pirelli. 345/35R15 No problem. i should have them in a month or so https://www.longstonetyres.co....li-cinturato-p7.html


How does this effect us in the US? You are in the UK?

Does Pirelli make the tires available to you or everyone in every market?
quote:
Originally posted by www.longstone.com:
285/50 is just OK on a 8" rim, but not really that good. a 285mm tyre is really over 11 inches wide.

Is there a good tyre available in the size 285/50R15?


With Pirelli making some of the P7’s again, I dug out an old P7 brochure from the early 1990’s. The recommended rim widths for a 285/50/15 were 8” to 10”s. The overall diameter is 26.22” and the cross section is 11.30”. The fact that the tires do fit on the 8” rims makes a great case that it would benefit significantly more than 100 cars. These would benefit any Pantera owner that still has 15” diameter wheels(8’s or 10’s) on a narrow body car.

It also has the 275/55/15” listed. Recommended rim widths are 7” to 9”. Overall diameter is 27.00”. Cross section is 10.51”. Although it is not recommended for a 10” wide rim, I believe that a friend of mine has this size on his car and they look decent.

I don’t believe there is a 285/50/15 from any tire company, if there was, I would still have my 15’s on my car.
Dougal, where did the 100 car limitation come from with regards to the 285/50/15? I haven’t read every post that closely.

I would think there is more potential to sell these than the 285/40/15. Although, I am very happy that they are going to produce the 40’s again for my wide body car. The car currently has P7’s on the front and P Zero’s on the rear.

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