Torker Intake

quote:

Originally posted by Derrick:
A friend has given me a Torker intake to use and when I install it on the engine I see it tilts the carb forward a fair amount. I understand they do this for a mustang as the engine tilts back to achieve drive line angles. As the engine was not in the car when I got it I can't judge if the engine sits level (I am assuming it does). If the engine does sit level I could see some possible drivability problems with the carb tilted forward that much. Any thoughts?? Thanks

You could have the carb base milled flat, or get a carb spacer and have it milled at an angle (how ever many degrees to make sit level)
I'm sure others will be able to help more then I.
Good Luck

Normally you could adjust float levels to compensate for the angle of the carb. Such a forward angle could cause flooding during hard braking. It will also cause a large tilt on the air cleaner. I would recommend milling the intake flat.

Moroso makes a 5 deg spacer that works great! I have one on my car with a Edelbrock Performer RPM air gap.

http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categorydisplay.asp?catcode=32020


I bought mine from Summit Racing for like $35

Ron

I'm with you, mounting the carb at a nose down angle is not ideal. The Blue Thunder intake is available with a flat carb mount, designed specifically for our Panteras.

When automobile motors are mounted in some boats, they are mounted flat just as in the Pantera. I've seen the angle carby spacers Ron refers to in boat shops as well.

Although the angle is not ideal, when hot rodders raise the rear end of a car, or lower the front end, sometimes worse angles are encountered by the carby than what's encountered in the Pantera, and they run just fine. Many an owner has been running his Pantera with similar angles to the carby for more than 30 years.

I ride off road motorcycles. Carbys on our off-road motors encounter all sorts of extreme angles on a continuous basis, with seldom a hiccup.

I wouldn't consider optimizing the angle of the carby a waste of time, but I doubt you'll measure any benefits.

cowboy from hell

Was the original equipment intake manifold in the Pantera special for the car?
I thought that it was just a box stock iron 4v CJ Ford intake manifold?

When one adjusts the float levels in a Holley, the adjustments for special applications are made to maintain a static fuel level in the emulsion tubes and idle transfer slots.

As long as that is taken into account there should be no problem.

If you are using a Holley carb with fuel level sight plugs in the bowls, you may have to switch to Moroso type clear plugs and adjust the level higher then "normal" instructions would have.

This is true of the Ford 2-4v carb set ups that mount the carb backwards.

In that case the secondaries are adjusted higher then specs and the primaries lower. If you don't the primaries will flood at idle and the secondaries will run dry.

Thanks for the info. My concern is a sudden stop, carb flooding, engine stalling loosing brake assistance.
I did not know there was an angle plate available. I'm sure it will reduce the angle somewhat , maybe enough to make a difference during a severe brake application.

In my experience in autocross and open track events all cars equipped with a carb where the fuel bowl is in the front or the rear of the carb will stall under severve braking because the fuel is sloshing away from the idle circuit pick up.

Moroso does make fuel jet extensions to counter this but they are not a foolproof guaranty.

Some of the Holley carbs with racing applications are equipped with air vent extensions to reduce the amount of fuel spilled through the top of the carb. It doesn't eliminate it though.

The only way to prevent the staling that I know of is by going to fuel injection where there are no fuel bowls.

One of the nice things about the Weber 48ida set-ups is that they are much less susceptable to the fuel sloshing problems. It also makes them very responsive in high speed turns.

quote:

Originally posted by CrazyDave:
Normally you could adjust float levels to compensate for the angle of the carb. Such a forward angle could cause flooding during hard braking. It will also cause a large tilt on the air cleaner. I would recommend milling the intake flat.

If you are milling an edelbrock torker 2760 flat then you are milling into the threaded hole for the vacuum connection and maybe also into the runners.
I would recommend a spacer instead.

Priced a plate to offset the angle and then priced a airgap intake for 2v head which will help torque and botton end (mistake). So guess what I did?? I ordered the manifold and plate as the airgap has a slight angle biult into it also. I hate myself

I installed the Edelbrock RPM airgap intake on my car and I too have the slight nose down problem. Has anyone run it this way? Has anyone experienced any problems with it? I understand the theory of stalling/starving during acceleration /decelleration due to fuel slosh but does this actually happen? I'd rather not use a wedge spacer if not necessary. Thanks guys!

Dennis,

I've been running the Torker for a while and yes under hard braking I flood the engine and it stalls if I don't blip the throttle quick enough.

I'm living with it at the moment as I want to get an Al head and intake package soon (CHI or C302).

If you don't want to use a spacer, I assume due to further height additiond why not have the top of the intake machined to the correct angle?

Julian

Dennis,

no problemo brother. Let's reason this thing through so you won't worry about it.

The only manifolds that mount the carby flat are the special Blue Thunder and the various SVO & Yates manifolds. Everything else has the ~10 degree angle machined into it. The most popular manifolds for the Cleveland motor, the Edelbrock Performer, the Edelbrock Torker and the Holley Strip Dominator all have the angled carb pad. There are more Pantera guys, Cobra guys, etc running their carburetors at angles, than their are those that have flat manifolds.

How many complaints of fuel starvation have you read about here, on the mail list, etc?

Since a car doesn't travel only on flat ground, the ability to feed fuel to the jets a various angles is designed into the fuel bowls, make sense?

The fuel will slosh forward under hard braking, backwards under acceleration, even if the manifold mounted the carb flat, the issue Julian refers to will not go away if the carb were mounted flat.

aloha, cowboy from hell

A little more info on the subject...

The center hung float bowls of the Holley carby were designed by Smokey Yunik in the 1950's to alleviate fuel starvation problems encountered in the high speed corners of NASCAR racing on the high speed oval tracks. The float pivots are oriented in such a way as to not be affected by centiufugal forces acting sideways upon the carby.

Ever notice the Holley street carbys have "side hung" float bowls? Aha! The pivot orientation of the side hung floats, and the narrower fuel bowls are affected less by acceleration and deceleration.

The last Autolite carb design from Ford was the 4300 spread bore, and the last carb design by Carter was the Thermoquad. Both carbys feature "U" shaped floats, called pontoon floats, and narrow fuel bowls, that were designed to perform optimally under acceleration, deceleration, and cornering. Some enthusiasts, and the Carter carburetor company, believed the Thermoquad was the best 4 barrell carburetor ever designed.

cowboy from hell

The only thing that will eliminate the stalling under braking and flooding under accelleration is fule injection.

Those situations usually happen under severe, or "racing" conditions. It you can stall it on the street from braking, and you didn't hit anything or anything didn't hit you you really have the brakes and tires working. Usually you will skid which will reduce the g forces.

Hum? Did ABS brakes come before EFI? Anti-lock is maximizing g-forces isn't it? Are we talking a carb incompatability here as far as Detroit is concerned? Interesting?

One other comment comes to mind.

If you ride a motorcycle, or drive a carbureted car, it becomes second nature, as you brake hard for a stop, to disengage the clutch and blip the throttle/gas pedal.

But if you spend all week driving a fuel injected car, then slip into the Pantera on the weekend, it won't be second nature to do this, and the motor may die at your first quick stop. I've done it before. Probably the rest of the day you'll be careful to blip the throttle when stopping.

Go to any auto race event involving tight corners, and watch the vehicles backfire as the drivers brake hard going into a turn. Its just the nature of the beast.

beastly cowboy from hell

The problem is only for carburatored Panteras.

I ended up getting the Edelbrock AirGap intake and found it to have the same amount of forward slope to the base. I also got a tapered spacer which is about 3/4" to 1" thick at the front and about 1/4" at the rear. Here is a picture with an old carb on it. Nice and level now....

OOO, pretty, fresh paint and clean aluminum. Too bad it aint that way after 10,000 miles of driving.

quote:

Moroso makes a 5 deg spacer that works great! I have one on my car with a Edelbrock Performer RPM air gap.

http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categorydisplay.asp?catcode=32020

Ron; Interestingly the catalog description says it is actually designed to tilt the carb forward to the optimum of 5° for better acceleration.

quote:

But if you spend all week driving a fuel injected car, then slip into the Pantera on the weekend, it won't be second nature to do this, and the motor may die at your first quick stop. I've done it before. Probably the rest of the day you'll be careful to blip the throttle when stopping.

George; I never forget to blip the throtte, it's part of the fun and let's 'em know your coming too

I just was curious if there was any performance issued with the tilted carburetor. I guess that I'll try it out and see if it stalls or not. If so I'll install the wedge spacer. Thanks again guys!

They are more difficult to get the idle fuel level correct.
It would seem that Holley located the bowl sight plugs with the presumption that the carb would be close to level at idle.
If you look at the carbs with side mounted floats the primary and secondary sight plug holes are at different levels.
The correct fuel level at idle is that the fuel should be right at the bottom of the hole at idle.
If the carb is not level at idle then it will make the front bowl fuel level incorrectly low at idle and the secondary too high.

I have this problem on my GT350 with 2x4 Holleys. The carbs in that case are not the original application and are mounted backwards which is normal for the Ford 2x4 linkage.

This basically makes adjusting the fuel levels a little bit of guesswork.

The original 2x4v BB carbs have different fuel bowls with relocated sight plugs.
They are about as rare as hens teeth these days and twice as expensive as a Saudi oil well.

Incidentally, if anyone cares, the Ford Motorsport 341, Torker style intake has the carb pad cut on an angle.
This is in contrast to the tall spyder manifolds that are cut "correct" for a Pantera.

I had my tall spyder milled on an angle .375" to .000 to fit it under the roof.
It caused no problems that way with the Holley 4779.

I have since put the Webers back on the car and sold the "old" set up. That guy didn't like the height on his Pantera either and had it for sale again last year.

The problem with that intake is the height. It is high like a tunnelram.

PanteraDoug, I am having the same problem with my buddies 427 Fairlane. I believe they are Holley 600's and I rebuilt them last year and finally got them dialed in. They were bad for fouling the plugs every couple of months and he had a stall problem under hard braking. Now the car runs the best it has ever run, but the engine still wants to stall and after adjusting the float levels several times I cannot seem to eliminate it. In my opinion the carbs being mounted backwards is allowing the fuel to slosh towards the metering plate when braking and then allowing the float to drop enough to let more fuel into the bowl and causing an enrichment flooding the car. When the stall occurs you have to throttle it a bit to clear, I would expect to see black smoke from the exhaust, but I don't thinking it may be a lean problem instead. So I need to concentrate on tweeking the primary float adjustments on both or just one of the carbs causing the problem. These Holley's are so sensitive to over adjusting it can take you from good to bad very quickly. Just my thoughts, Derrick

I can't quite get mine right either Derrick.
Because I've been struggling back and forth with other issues on the car, and trying to work on the Pantera,I haven't got it anywhere near where I would proclaim the carbs right.

Re-continuation Holley carbs for that application are available. I haven't had the cash for them but it is possible that they would help the problem.

The other possibilaty is to put the primaries to the front. Put the primary carb in the back?

I can't find anyone who knows exactly what to do with the dam setup. Everyone says well it should be this and it should be that but no one knows exactly what the problem is.

I don't trust the car going up on a very steep grade either. Maybe the volume of fuel in the bowls is insufficient?

PanterDoug,
How do you like the Webers on the Cleveland? I have heard from only one Cleveland owner about their Weber experience. I would really like to have Webers on my car...any issues due to the large ports and the lack of a strong pulse?...Steve Wilkinson told me that that was the biggest issue when they are installed on a Cleveland. My car is a late December 72L build with low compression (I think) and I have thought about swapping to the Edelbrock head...Wilkinson said that would be a much better combination for the Webers?

Hum? Quite a question that is.
OK, background.
I have run them on two Clevelands. The first was a solid lifter (.500 lift, 297 advertised-probably 248 @.050 in todays terms), 11.8:1.

Iron 4v pig ports.

For the driving I did, I liked them. One of my Chevy friends begged me to let him drive it up the street which I relented to to stop the whining.

He comes back and says there is something wrong with this car. It has no bottom end. Well, he was actually correct. The wonderfull quality of the Accell distributor had stretched the advance springs and it had no advance.

But, the other thing was that this guy had never driven a Cleveland before. So how do I explain the idiosyncrosies (spelling is close enough, you get the idea) of them to him.

It also had the 42mm chokes in the carbs at the time.

The second engine is my current one. It has Ford Motorsport A3 heads, flat top pistons and a solid lifter cam. Same one as above actually.

It has 40mm chokes in it.

The nature of this engine is a little different. It has 180 degree heads, 2" tubes.

It has bottom end. It would make my Chevy friend envious.

Recommendations:
1) do not run Webers on a stock hydraulic ammed, big port, low compression engine.
2) do not run Webers if you want a no maintenence turn key car
3)run Webers if you want a no nonsense kick ass ultimate naturally asperated engine
4)do not run Webers unless you can do all the work yourself
5)do not do Webers unless you can throw $100 bills at the car like you are ditching your cigarette butts.

Conclusion:
Do I like them?
Yes. the performance aspect of them. They are not a joke, they work.
There is no waiting for the secondaries to open and kick in. The carbs are right there, right at your foot.

No. They have two thing that irk me. When they are really running right. The exhaust system sweats. It sweats like it was in the deepfreeze and you are thawing it out with a blow torch.

Presuming that was the extent of the problem, maybe I could put up with it. No. The water, condinsation, whatever it is, mixes with the nice black exhaut soot inside the pipes and is not happy to releieve itself through the tail pipe opening like a current cat equipped car would do.

Instead it needs to relieve itself through every gasket in the exhaust system. It's a black gook that splashes all over everythin in the engine compartment.

The intake manifold, the inside of the decklid, everything.

Now the first time this everhappened I thought I blew the engine. No, not at all. When the engineisoff and cool and you go to wipe it up, it is not oily at all.

It is washable with windex and a paper towel.
So what's the big deal? You have to wash the engine everytime you want to use it.

When I get my NY 95 degree, 95% humidity weather, park the car. It's a dog to drive and the exhaust fumes linger.

SoCAl may be a different animal though. I don't know.

Future plans.

Go to TWM EFI throttle bodies on my Weber manifold. Halteck E6X CPU.

If that don't work, the Holley 750dp is still here on the shelf with the 341A intake.

I'm sure that the IR EFI will work great. I pray that the exhaust sweating issue is a Weber only deal. If it doesn't work maybe I'll take up golf?