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Transfer a race engine or build a new one ?

alfa4funalfa4funMember
So here I am hoping to get some information from the guys that have done and seen it all.

I've been racing for 12 years with alfa's but my dream always was to race a Pantera mainly because I would like to battle for the lead with Mustangs, Camaro's, Porsches and Jaguars (even an odd but very fast charger) instead of having to battle with escorts and bmw's for 15 th place.

Over the last years I've seen a lot of race Panteras for sale but the budget was always way out of my league.

I owned a very nice pushbutton Pantera but last spring I decided to sell it because it was used very very little and it was far to good to transform it into a racing car.

Instead of curring me, the guy that bought my Pantera infected me even more with the virus, so there I was looking for another Pantera just five minutes after he left with my (his) Pantera.

Then, in july, I found a wild customised Pantera for sale with a 500+ rwhp Nascar engine for a reasonable price and decided to buy it and transform it into a racing car.

Once the car arrived however, again I found it to good to race it certainly because all the custom work was done in steel (try to fix that if you hit something).

So, a month ago I came across a project Pantera with a very good shell and a new stock 351 C engine and again I managed to buy it. (sorry darling no holiday next year).

My idea was to transfer the Nascar engine into the project car and to transform that into a full road racing car (finally my dream is coming true at a reasonable price).

After having read some of the thread's, I'm not so sure anymore.

Sure 500+ rwhp goes very fast on the straight, but will it get around the corner and even worse, what if it rain's ?

What I'm looking for is the best relaibility and driveability.

So here are the spec's of the engine :

Ford 351 C build to Nascar specifications
Power output 500+ rwhp
6 row aluminium radiator
Cooling system with all stainless steel and high quality rubber hoses
MSD ignition
Parker funnel hi-rise intake manifold
shaft mount roller rockers for high rpms
CHI 3 V heads that flow at 340 CFM
H-beam rods
Custom ARP pistons
Steel crank
4-bolt main block
Custom ground camshaft
Solid roller
Ferrea valves
Manley custom springs with titanium retainers and locks
Quickfuel 950 carburetor mechanical secondary
Edelbrock electric fuel pump with a Billet fuel pressure regulator
Custom exhaust with center exit

So a lot of goodies here in my opinion, but the questions stay :

Is this a relaible engine and will it fit in the project car or would it be more reasonable to build a 400 hp race engine from the stock 351 C and leave the other car as it is ? Keep in mind that $$$$ is important since there isn't much left anymore.

Any opinion is welcome

Carlo

PS I'll try to post some pic's but they are to many kb's so i'll have to resize them.
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George PGeorge PAdmin.
Carlo,

First: it will be a shame to remove the hot looking motor from the steel flared car. A stock motor wouldn't look right in that engine bay.

Second: Will that motor qualify for the class rules you'll be racing under? In particular I'm wondering if the rules will allow the CHI heads or will they require stock heads.

Third: I wonder if that motor is really built to race engine spec? A race engine needs to be durable and built to run at high rpm so it can pull any long straight aways lap after lap without damage. For instance:

Are the pistons round skirt endurance pistons or slipper skirt style pistons.

Does the motor use floating wrist pins?

Have the cylinders been indexed, the crank saddles align honed, the decks leveled?

Is the crank internally balanced or externally balanced?

Has the reciprocating assembly been dynamically balanced?

Were lifter bore bushings & cam bearing restrictors installed?

What's the hot oil pressure?

Are the valves made of light metals? i.e. Titanium intake valves, hollow stem stainless exhaust valves?

What brand/quality of harmonic dampener has been installed?

Is that solid roller camshaft designed for road racing/endurance racing? What are the spring pressures seated & over the nose?

What's the OD & wall thickness of the push rods?

I'm not against combining a steel crank with the thinwall production engine block, but in true race applications the oem iron crankshaft lessens the risk of cracking the block.

-G
Last edited by George P
alfa4funalfa4funMember
George,

thanks for your reply.

Now to answer you questions :

I agree that taking the engine out and put a stock engine into the customised car would make it a sheep in wolves clothing. And that's a shame. On the other hand it would mean that I can keep them both and I'm afraid that if I have everything newly build that the black Pantera has to go in order to finance the race car.

Suppose I would have a new race engine build. How much USD would that cost taking in account that I have a new stock 351 C engine and who would be the best choice to do the job ? Would it be better to have it build in the U.S. and would I get enough information about the parts so that I can have it maintained by a local shop ?

I'm not very worried about the rules since the series I run have 3 divisions. A division stock engines, a division for engines with only part from the era the car was build and a division for engines that are heavily modified. The only thing that isn't allowed is a turbo engine.

The last question is the most difficult. I'm afraid that it will be impossible to get that information from the vendor since he was acting a an agent for an unknown owner. I have a lot of invoices but strangely mainly bodyparts and small parts but very little on the engine. This is also what I'm afraid of. Building the engine in and having to watch it blow because it wasn't purpose build. It's clear that this would be my worse nightmare because then you have to rebuild an engine and the value of the black Pantera is gone.

Maybe somebody on the forum here knows the car or even has build it. From the invoices I know that it was build in 2005.

Carlo
C charliemccallMember
I'm far from an expert, but here's some food for thought.

IF your hot engine is an unknown, then there is a certain amount of risk in racing it. Racing is the most extreme application there is, and a motor that might live happily on the street for many years might expire after only a few hours on the track due to the stresses induced, rpms, temps, etc.

If it blows on the track, then you don't have ANY working engines.

My recommendation would be to leave the hot engine in the current car. It looks the part, and could probably live happily in a street environment for years. Build a modest race engine for the race Pantera - you'll know what components are used and can be confident that it will hold up under race conditions. You can build a solid 400hp race Cleveland for not all that much $$, 500hp is a bit more... but if your Hot motor blows up in the first race you'll have to spend that money anyway, and you won't have anything to power the other Pantera.

Just food for though.
bosswrenchbosswrenchMember
My suggestion is to begin with a stock engine and a fully baffled 10-quart racing oil pan, and start your mods with the suspension. EVERY single parameter in the Pantera suspension is adjustable- thanks to designer Dallara, and doing this will allow you to progressively learn how the car handles at lower speeds. Learning to drive fast on-track in a mid-engine car is always a revelation to former drivers of front-engine machines. Things happen VERY quickly and it's best done NOT in a superfast car where mistakes can be covered up with power. Drivers don't learn anything that way.
I wrote a series of articles over the last 10 years for the POCA newsletter, in which the following are adjusted (front end):
toe-in
Ackermann toe-gain
caster
camber (two methods of adjustment lock)
bump-steer (two methods)
instant-center adjustment
swaybar sizing & tuning
shock tuning and corner-weight balancing
a-arm bushing materials
ball joints (I run racing Chrysler assemblies)
In the rear: bushings, toe-in and instant center adjustment, camber, ball joints, sway bar tuning and ZF set-up along with engine setback & lowering. Brakes should also be upgraded and a few aero mods should be considered.
I've not only done all this to our guinea-pig street Pantera L, it's currently 600 lbs lighter than stock and still runs A/C, wipers, both big bumpers, heater, a stereo/CD player & full interior. The car is stock-appearing with no gaudy wing. I estimate a full race-Pantera WITH a full roll cage could be built to 2400 lbs fueled & ready to run. Your stocker weighs around 3200 lbs w/no driver.
Stiffening up a race-Pantera chassis is best done by first seam-welding the entire body/monococque to replace the stock spot-welds, and correcting the usual rear suspension distortion BEFORE starting to try going fast.
Our POCA chapter has open track events where Mazda Miatas run with 500+ bhp Panteras & their mile-wide tires; the 'toy' Miatas blow their doors off in corners. No excuse for this except inexperience on-track, and poor suspension adjustments.
Nor-Cal Panteras has a track-only Pantera who's driver installed a 5-liter Ford out of his Mustang when he blew up a stroked 351-C. He found to his surprise that the 150 lbs lost and a few handling tweeks caused him to go faster than before. Today- 12 years later- he still hasn't bothered to rebuilt the stroker, and his 'little-motor' Pantera is faster every year! He regularly beats giant-power stroker-motor Panteras both in the corners and on the straights. IMHO, big-power engine building should be way down on your list of priorities.
C Candy2862 (Guest)
Bosswrench
That's a very smart and detailed response ( would I dare saying " as usual" .)
If I may say, the only thing I don't agree with is that wet sump system. If you race a GR4 slick tyre Pantera on a long fast track in Europe, ( designed for Panteras) you MUST have a dry sump engine. Otherwise, you'll last for 3 laps, may be less ( after the tyres are hot ). Look at the G's our Swiss Michael Erlich friend takes in the oil system in Spa at the Eau Rouge. Don't even mention Monza or Barcelona...
DRY SUMP only.
Your Belgian Fontana friend Pat ! :>))
kidkidMember
quote:
Originally posted by ALFA4FUN:
Instead of curring me, the guy that bought my Pantera infected me even more with the virus, so there I was looking for another Pantera just five minutes after he left with my (his) Pantera.


Sounds like a horrible person Red Face

I definitely would sue that guy, and send him your brain doctor bill, and the bills of all the extra expenses you were initially not planning to make!
alfa4funalfa4funMember
So it looks that the mainstream idea is to keep the wild Pantera unmolested.

It's to bad that nobody knows the car or the company that build the engine because it's clear that if it wasn't intended to be a race engine, it wont't last long on track.

Another issue is the handling in the corners and of course the brakes. I want to put 15" wheels on the car so the Wilwood 4 pots calipers look to be the best choice because. 6 pot won't fit into a 15" wheel.

Suspension is something I have to look into.

Anyway with only a shell to start with, this will be without a doubt a 2 or 3 year project unless I win the lottery.
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