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Issue:

Pantera steering wheel is rock solid on perfectly smooth road at 120 mph. Tight, solid steering. At 65 mph on roads grooved for rain water drainage or uneven pavement, steering is twitchy and nervous, steerng wheel vibrates.

Facts:

Wheel alignment performed, 1/8" toe in, caster within spec, four wheel alignment without defect. No front air dam. Front of car set down 1 1/2" relative to back of car (slopes toward ground in front), measured at rear of front wheel body to pavement and front of rear wheel body to pavement. 32 psi front and rear. 15" rims, stock Campy's. Tire radius measurements: rim to pavement: front: 2 1/2 ", rear 3 1/2". Tires perfectly balanced.

Impressions/Past Experience/Diagnosis:

1982 Lotus Esprit, 4 cylinder, wedge shape with ground effects (air dam front and side body skirts) had same twitchy steering feedback. Vehicle weight: 2,300 lbs. (1,000 lbs. under Pantera's weight.) Was running 8" wide front tires and 10" wide rear tires. Tire radius: 3" rim to pavement tire radius, front and rear. Overactive steering feedback also. So tires gradually deflated: 32 psi, front and rear. 24 psi front and rear. 18 psi front and rear. Final set-up: 8 psi front and 12 psi rear gave the tire tread four inches of tire contact at the outside tire wall at the tread, measured at the pavement. This means the front had a "tread contact patch area of 4" X 8" = 32 square inches. (32L7")" and the rear had a "tread contact patch area of 4" X 10" = 40 square inches (40L7")". The vehicle's weight bias was about 45% front and 55% rear as best I can recall. At speed on rough road, the tire ply absorbed the road irregularities and the ride was buffered by the tire ply. I never hit a pot hole and punctured a tire by a pinch against a rim. At 148 mph the vehicle really squatted down and was stiff to turn. 140 mph speed was for only about 3 minutes, so increased tire temperature from increased tire sidewall deformation didn't reach degradation limits. Driving was comfortable and control was seemingly at optimum.

If, in fact, the Lotus had 45% weight on front and 55% weight on back, the a 32 square inch contact patch on each front wheel and 40 sqaure inch contact patch on back equals 32/(32 + 40) = 32/72 = 44% contact patch on the front tires and 56% contact patch on the rear tires.

I must say, the car, with that specific set-up, drifted with nearly exact front and rear drift, at any speed, through any corner. That is to say, if at the apex of the turn the car was sliding, and at the final curvature of the turn the wheel slide was measured again, then if the front tires were 2" off the protractor line through the curve (i.e.: the perfect, non-slide line through the curve) then, the back tires were also 2" outside the protractor line through the curve.

Pretty close to the ideal set-up. Neutral steering geometry. Controllable. And absorbing road shock through surface irregularity.

Warning:

Sustained manuevers at these high speeds would tend to increase tire temperatures in the sidewalls and potentially lead to tire failure.

Correction Factor:

"Tire contact patch" calculations could be performed to increase tire pressures, such that tire sidewall distortion would be minimized, leading to decreased temperature increases from sidewall distortion, while sacrificing "contact patch surface area" and thus cornering grip. The question is: how long are you going to be doing the high speed driving? If over 7 minutes, better consult your tire manufacturer's guidelines and recommended tires inflation settings. If driving at high speeds for very brief intervals, lower tire pressures may optimize cornering grip, and neutralize excessive steering feedback resulting in a more comfortable ride.

Questions:

(1) What is the weight bias: front to rear on the Pantera with the standard 351-C?
(2) Has anybody done a study as to what tire pressures optimize both the neutrality of the front to rear drift while cornering (during occasional high speed cornering) while deflalting the tires enough to overcome the steering input shock to the steering wheel on uneven surfaces?
(3) Surely nobody is running 32 psig in front and rear as per tire manufacturer recommendations, so what is working well for you guys? Certainly the front tire pressures must be less than the rear tire pressures to compensate for the rear weight distribution factor in the Pantera.
As well, since the Pantera is roughly 50% heavier than the Lotus, tire pressures must correspondingly be about 50% more. Thus, my next question;
(4) Has anybody been running about 12 psi front and 18 psi rear in their Pantera? If so how does it affect your handling?

Current Modification:

A Mini Front Air Dam is being installed on my Pantera at the moment. I believe this will have a dual benefit: (a) hold the front down more firmly at speed and (b) increase cooling at all speeds.

Generalized Question:

Has anyone done anything that reduces the road input to the steering wheel, such that the steering wheel is less twitchy and offers greater stability at all speeds on all road surfaces?
Has anyone else observed a twitchy steering wheel on less than perfectly smooth roads? What have you done that helps correct thesituation?
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Ron,
The feeling I get is that you talking about tire pressure as being the tool for setting the balance of car up. The balance of the car should be balanced with swaybars, springs and schocks. NOT, tire pressure.

You mention your alignment setting, which is Ok. The rake of the car is 1,5" lower front, which is a bit much.
I don�t get your sidewall number right. A sidewall of 2,5" + 15" makes a 20" diameter tire!!!

We cannot play around with tire pressure difference from 8 to 32 psi. Second, I don�t know what tire you use. Other Panteras does probably have other tires that don�t compare.
A tire has a narrow range of pressure. And we should look at the tread temperature with a tire temp gauge to sort out tire pressure.

You have a good balance car, but at the same time a car that may overheat the tires at sustained driving. This show that we can�t play this much with tire pressure.
A bigger contact patch takes another tire.

As fare as comfort is concerned, we better leave thing like that when discussing sportscar set up.

A front airdam has little effect on car balance.

Pantera has a large scrub radius that creates road input to the steering wheel.
A-arm rebuild takes care of this. This will not change the driving stability, but lessen the input to the steering wheel.

Q-1.
A Pantera is about 42-58% weight distribution.

Q-2.
I have been playing with anything on the car,
and don�t recommend playing with tire pressure.
If the car doesn�t handle road irregularities well, then we should work with shock absorbers.

Q-3.
Checking tire temperature will automatically compensate inflation pressure for car weight.

Q-4.
The cornering balance should be performed with swaybars, not tire pressure. Put the widest possible tire on the car and do the balance with swaybars and springs. Then set the reaction with shocks.
The dampening properties of the tires are outside our control. We should have the movement where we can adjust it.
Goran Malmberg
The Pantera as delivered does not have enough caster adjustment in the front suspension to play these games on rough roads. Most Panteras can't quite get 2 degrees per side; Corvettes and other powerful sportscars have 6 degrees. By machining the front upper ball joint housings on one side, then making an extra shim pack, one can gain about one more degree. Offset polyurethane suspension bushings can gain about another degree, making almost enough for hi-speed games. A second Pantera problem is bump-steer. Several correction systems are available but the simplest is a spacer between the rack and body mount to lower the steering arms so they're more level. I assume the stock spring spacers are gone. Yet another problem area is scrub-radius: with stock 7" wheels, the Pantera is very bad with over 3/4" of scrub. Substituting 8" x 15 Campys that have the extra width biased inboard as-stock, fixes most of this problem. Pat Mical in Massachusetts [www.detomasopantera.net] has custom upper front a-arms that allow more than 6 degrees of caster by themselves, and is well versed in making Panteras handle. He;s currently taking care of suspension tuning for a Gp 4 now pro- racing on the East Coast

Wider wheels and big tires make this nervousness worse, as does misaligned or bent rear suspension components. And before you say that your car is not bent, be aware that ALL Panteras including mine have collapsed their rear subframes measurably in the last 30 years. In many caees, so much that one cannot properly align the rear wheels without adjustable upper rear a-arms. Some frame work and a decent adjustable over-the tranny brace will alleviate this; the stock brace is a joke. Vendor-supplied stiffening systems will also help but the real fix is seam-welding the whole car PLUS all the things listed above. Or stay off rough roads at speed.....

As far as running low tire pressures, my experience using radial tires including gumballs in autocross and limited track events, points toward running at least 42 psi in the front tires (size 245-50x 15s), and 46-48 psi in the rear (275-50x 15s), with a 5/8" front and a 7/8" rear anti-swaybar (stock is 3/4" at both ends). Some of my 'Vette competitors ran as much as 52 psi in radials, with bigger tires than mine. More precise steering results from the higher pressures with little if any traction change. IMHO, tire pressure is a 'tweek' after everything else is right, not a primary tuning tool. Worked for me....
Thanks for the responses. It has the frame brace from an after market vendor already. I'd like to have the seam welding done, but really hate to ruin the paint and not sure how that would could be done without toasting at least a wire or two, os that'll be a much later project.

The rear is in alignment, per that fancy digital expensive alignment tool. The caster is maxed out already and the bump steer kit is installed, but as per previous bump steer tech articles, some bump steer remains.

It has original rims with very low profile front tires and close to original profile rear tires. I'm changing the tires and rim set up next so the width of the sidewall will be near equal on all four tires. Hopefull that will help a lot.

The lower front ball joints were looser than the front at the time of rebilding the a-arm bushings last summer, not out of spec or overly loose.

I hope the new tires and rims, along with a more firmly planted nose at speed keeps the 1/8" steering wheel shimmy out on the roads grooved for rainwater drainagle, like parts of the freeways around here. No shimmy on some stretches and nervous steering wheel on other parts of the same freeway. Consistent. Just annoying. When I see the inside camera view of Michael Shumacher's Ferrari, is it pretty tight steering, while the same camera angle shows that Juan Pablo Montoya's steering wheel is much more jittery. Maybe different caster settings, like you said. It seems to give reassurance when the steering wheel is tight and not shacking so quickly and tightly. I suppose I'll change one thing at a time as the wallet allows, and just get used to it. I'd like those new front a-arms as an upgrade. That sounds like it would be the biggest help, with a reasonable price tag.

Thanks again.
quote:
Originally posted by ron norman:
1
It has the frame brace from an after market vendor already.
2
I'd like to have the seam welding done,
3
alignment, per that fancy digital expensive alignment tool. The caster is maxed out already
4
and the bump steer kit is installed, but as per previous bump steer tech articles, some bump steer remains.
5
I'd like those new front a-arms as an upgrade. That sounds like it would be the biggest help, with a reasonable price tag.

Thanks again.[/B]

Ron
1
In the last PI issue, I show where the flexing occur.
I am suspicious about the effect of seam welding. This is an old racers method of stiffening up a chassis, many times to stay within the rules, as a welded in roll cage is banned. I have newer seen any stiffness numbers from these actions, and I doubt it is has any considerable effect. We must understand that Chassis stiffness has the biggest influence on wedge-tensional loads, via the shock-springs control over vertical wheel movement.

3
In this story we may also notice the not so great value of a �fancy digital alignment board�. It didn�t help the problem. Twisting movements around the steering axis, affecting the steering wheel, is another story. This is due to power outside centre of the kingpin axis. Like scrub distance. I think Jack by misstake confused 8 and 7 inch Campagnolo wheel offset with scrub radius. Depending on ride height of the car the ground projection of KPI varies, as KPI has an angle. The higher the car the greater the track of the projection. But an average of 50,60 inches will do for an example. Standard front track width with 7 inch wheels is 57,48 inches. 57,45-50,60=6,88�. 6,88/2= 3,44 inches of scrub each side of the car. This makes 2,94� scrub with 8 inches wheels. But on the downside is a narrower Tw.

Caster keeps the wheel in straight ahead position, but creates a �trial� which is another type of �scrub� in another plane, as the projection line of the KPI comes in the front of the front wheel.
Caster is some sort of compensation for the 7 degree KPI of the Pantera, not to get positive camber in turns. Big scrub also affects trial when the wheel is in �turn� position, as the centre of the wheel is mowed forward, which is also compensated by caster. This is apart from steering wheel response. All these �scrub� distances will in one or another situation create
torsional power around KPI. And compensating one with another will move the problem elsewhere.
If we want to get rid of �steering response� we must minimise KPI angles and scrub to get all wheel loads in the KPI centre. But this takes huge rebuilds.

4
As I was thinking, the bump steer would not be the problem, and now it show as you already installed this without help. To get rid of bumpsteer completely, we got a BIG job. Forget it. Change the caster a bit and you are off again. Caster gives the steering arms another angle by rising or lowering the steering arm + ball joint in relation to
the rack.
5
Front A-arm upgrade? There are nice A-arms to buy, but they don�t help the basic geometry problem. But some has better adjustability within factory geometry.

Goran Malmberg
Ron, dropping the front of the car reduced positive caster, not much, not enough to cause the problem you describe by itself, but a tick.

I noticed this in the '70s. NASCAR didn't allow spoilers, and competitors raised the rear end until a burro could walk under without lowering his ears. Half the kids driving a RoadRunner or Charger on the street did the same, without a thought to realigning the front end.

It was comical (though very scary) to see them drive a normal road. They darted left or right as if they were evading an Ali jab.

(They also didn't change brake bias, and a faster than normal stop usually locked the rear wheels and skidded the rear end into an adjoining traffic lane.)

That's the dumb things 'they' did. I'm not gonna tell ya the dumb things I did!

Sketch
that is why you need to purchase adjustable suspension from JHP Motorsports!

addresses the need to adjustable track width for wide tires in the rear as well as the front adjustment limitations...he is selling the entire package bolt on...in billet aluminum for ~3k....this includes all ball joints, bushings and bolrs!!

contact jb@jhpmotorsports.com for more information. I am installing a set on my car and will be in Vegas if anyone wants to check out this setup.

Greg
quote:
Originally posted by 13mm:
Jack is right on again.
Bump steer, & caster is the BIG fix.



I had Pat Mical fit a set of his mod suspension arms to my 1987 GT5S and the car is transformed, far less steering effort needed and a massive reduction in tramlining, he certainly knows a thing or two about pantera handling problems and how to sort it out
Pat uses longer A-arms that in turne must be used together with the right negative offset wheels to yeld zero scrub. Zero scrub will direct moost forces to the centre of KPI. Zero scrub also gives less information to the driver. In this case he seem to use a Pantera 7 degree spindle. So the suspension must still use quite a bit Caster. And the suspension will only yeld zero bumpsteer at a given caster setting. However, longer A-arms like this is great in my opinion, but personally I should use a wheel offset giving about 1 inch scrub. Pat seems to know what he is doing.
Goran Malmberg
How much caster will the JHP system provide?Does the JHP system use heim joints? IF SO ARE YOU AWARE OF THE 30 degree limit + - OF DEFLECTION IN THEIR USE? FINE FOR A SMOOTHE TRACK, BUT NOT SO GOOD FOR THE STREET. Pat Michal is the only person I know who re manufactures the front A arms correctly to give up to 5 degrees of caster. My car is now a pleasure to drive. Personally, I would advise against the quick and seemingly easy route.
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