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Vintage racing brakes

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larrywlarrywMember
another. I got the other side too. They came from a Maserati Quattroport. Pretty hefty.

The rear calipers are similar, but without the spacer in the caliper so they'll fit the .810" rotors. Same funky little scissor e-brake thingie as I've seen in pictures of the P-car versions.

Next winter I'm going to see how they fit on my car.

I know where there's more.

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panteradougpanteradougMember
Are these iron or aluminum? Are they Girling?

What is the bolt mounting spacing to the spindle?

Tell us more about these Maserati calipers please.

Yes I would say that the aluminum spacer is the unique part for the Group 4, 18/4, 16/4 brake calipers.

Problem is Girling went out of business a while ago and someone purchased rights to the parts. These are all million dollar race cars and "continuation" cars that they are being built for now.

The Girling 18/4, and 16/4 aren't exactly earth shattering technology. They were used on the Ford GT40's. the Lola T70 and other GT race cars.

Frankly if I didn't know what they were used on I'd think that the pistons were a little small for the fronts just looking at them, but hey, who am I to argue with success?

There are definitely better calipers made now but the 18/4 & 16/4 are ORIGINAL VINTAGE yestertech for the European GT race car set of the era.

You may also find them fitted to some of the Group 3 Panteras too. The problem with the Gp3's is that Detomaso didn't document them well and they are subject to individual customer preferences.
larrywlarrywMember
They're definitely iron. The spacer section is iron too. The assembly shown weighs 68 lbs.

Add a wheel and tire and you're at a 100+ lbs. Yipes. Folks think the stock four piston Girlings are heavy?

No visible manufacturers mark on them. The caliper mounting bolts are 3.5" apart.

The spindles are 8.625" tall out to out.
A agp22Member
I don't know the weight, nor have I even seen them. The garage that is building the car is about 300Km from here and haven't had the time to check it on site. But I'm pretty sure the calipers are light. The surface of the pads is limited by the FIA file of "back then" and in historic racing, you have to stick to those things. If you put in modern calipers, it's like putting in electronic fuel injection, works better but shouldn't be on that car.
panteradougpanteradougMember
They seem to be on virually every Euro GT of the era. There has to be a reason.

I hadn't heard of the 917 on the list?

They are on the Gulf version of the GT40s too. The earlier versions used the Cobra race calipers.

The only caliper still a mystery to me is the one on the Mark II GT40, i.e., the 427 cars. They used a different (according to the press) one I haven't seen. Still haven't seen a picture of one either.

Apparently the Gp3 Panteras were using an iron version of these?

Thanks for posting.
panteradougpanteradougMember
In consideration of George's post about front wheel spacers on the Gp3 cars, I wanted to follow up on these two calipers?

LarryW, have you tried the iron Maserati calipers on your car yet? Do they clear the stock Pantera 8" wheels or do you need a spacer? Did you figure out what the calipers themselves weigh in at? Probably the smart thing to do on the rotors would be to go to two piece aftermarket with aluminum hubs?

"72GTS, how do the aluminum Girling 18/4, 16/4 calipers fit? Do they clear the wheels without spacers?

Question for Bosswrench, since you have seen a couple of Gp3 cars in person, are these iron Maserati calipers the same ones that you saw on the Panteras?

4.1 kilograms converts to 9+ pounds.
kidkidMember
I'm working on a similar setup as 72GTS.

I'll share what I can answer.

I went for BG's 18/4 for the front, 16/4 with integrated hand brake pads for the rear.

Going to vented in front, solid discs in the back. Discs are available sizes, had the hubs custom made as per own measurements, but general design based upon stock discs.

I can't speak for any stock wheel or so.
I bought mine with Albert wheels - aka, very early BBS wheels, but there would be no way to make those fit with the BG calipers, as they are waaaay wider!
Or you'd have to use spacers, but who would want to run one inch spacers... I don't!

Anyway, I'm switching to other wheels anyway, namely Basset "nascar" wheels, though that did only solve the problem partly. I shipped the 18/4's back to BG and had them made less wide.

The entire package doesn't come cheap, but I wanted to have decent brakes, thought still periodic correct by looks.

Still have to have some things to be modified, and adaptors made.

Work in progress...
panteradougpanteradougMember
Thank you for that information Kid.

The simplest and also the least expensive brake upgrade would be to go to one of the various Wilwood combinations. Certainly they would be lighter. That is an easy solution. Maybe too easy of a soulution?

I too want to make them look vintage correct. the 18/4 aluminum certainly fits that description. Expensively though.

I can't afford to make a mistake on this. I want to use the 15x8 Campi in the front. I'll accept a minimal spacer. That being less than 1/2" thick.

Few know of the specific issues with putting the 18/4 and 16/4 on the car. This is important information to me. I appreciate anyone sharing whatever they know on this subject.

Those Maserati Girlings look interesting as well. No question they are heavier that stock. Question is, do they need spacers too?

Thanks again.
kidkidMember
If you need any specific measurements/pictures in regard to the 18/4's Doug, then let me know.

As for spacers, that will really depend on the wheel you intend to use.

Note, I had everything made in a way I changed the offset of disc/caliper too (more inwards), this because I wanted to prevent the use of a spacer. So far it looks I will succeed, if not, the spacer would be really minimal (max 2mm).

Oh, and before I had the calipers modified - more precisely the inner section - I modified their outer shape myself already, as per BG's advice, in an attempt to make them fit...
panteradougpanteradougMember
The only way I would use them is if I could use them with the 8" x 15" Campi.

I always wondered why the Gp3 Panteras used an iron caliper and not the 18/4, 16/4 aluminum units.

This might be the answer. They won't work with the Campi wheels?

I personally would like to see pictures of anything that you have done to make them work on the car.

I understand what you mean by using spacers on the calipers to move them inboard to clear the wheels. I've done that before on other cars.

The rotor can also be offset inboard to a certain amount as well. There are limitations to both and taking a disc grinder to a caliper that is this valuable is not my idea of a good solution. Not at this point anyway?

Thank you for the offer. I'm interested in seeing what you did with the brakes. Yes.
bosswrenchbosswrenchMember
quote:
Question for Bosswrench, since you have seen a couple of Gp-3 cars in person, are these iron Maserati calipers the same ones that you saw on the Panteras?


Very similar. I'm hedging because Girling made many variations of their calipers front & rear. Some are alloy and some are iron but all use the pair-of-pliers style e-brake. All the Euro GTS/GR-3s and the GT-5/5S used iron 3-piston calipers (from a Rolls-Royce, modified) while the GR-4/GT-4s used aluminum 4-pistons, as did big-block Cobras. Alloy Girlings are also found on some Mangustas. But I know of one Goose with tiny iron 3-piston Girling rear calipers on 9" solid rotors. It also uses the same style e-brake. Those assemblies are off some model of Fiat.
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
To a certain "degree", I can only accept the period correct obsession/direction.

To fully incorporate the period correct approach , would also mean racing on period correct tire rubber compound.

I personally would favour "Safety" OVER "period correct"!!!...Mark


Not to worry.

The Avon tires (tyres) were made for that reason. They look period correct but actually work quite well even in the wet. They in fact stick much better than even the "summer only" street tread patterns. Wink

Even the BFG T/A's have an improved tread compound since they were purchased by Michelin. Many race teams of the era were using them as "racing wets" back in the day.

Since the Pantera is a "'70s" vehicle you could argue for either tire as "period correct"...just sayin', so you should know and feel safe about the "vintage look"? Cool
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by Bosswrench:
quote:
Question for Bosswrench, since you have seen a couple of Gp-3 cars in person, are these iron Maserati calipers the same ones that you saw on the Panteras?


Very similar. I'm hedging because Girling made many variations of their calipers front & rear. Some are alloy and some are iron but all use the pair-of-pliers style e-brake. All the Euro GTS/GR-3s and the GT-5/5S used iron 3-piston calipers (from a Rolls-Royce, modified) while the GR-4/GT-4s used aluminum 4-pistons, as did big-block Cobras. Alloy Girlings are also found on some Mangustas. But I know of one Goose with tiny iron 3-piston Girling rear calipers on 9" solid rotors. It also uses the same style e-brake. Those assemblies are off some model of Fiat.


Since genuine and original Gp3 and Gp4 cars are kinda hard to come by these days, can we get someone with a GT 5 to post some brake pictures here maybe?

Are there any cross-over part numbers from that car to other car manufacturers you know of Bosswrench?

Actually I've been looking at Girling calipers and they all are not pretty and all are very ugly hunks of iron.



Even those 18-4's aren't anything to put into a beauty contest.



When I Googled LarryW's Maserati Quatroporto, they all come up as Brembos with a "Maserati" logo on them.

The "hot" caliper to look at I think is the Volvo "R" caliper. That car has got massive brakes on it.



For me, I may just come to the conclusion that by far the simplest thing to do, and the most cost effective, is to mill off the Wilwood logo on the brake calipers and go that way and make those work? After all it would seem that everyone has gone to the two piece "race" type rotors with the separate aluminum hub hat and bolt on brake ring already?
kidkidMember
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I personally would like to see pictures of anything that you have done to make them work on the car.

I understand what you mean by using spacers on the calipers to move them inboard to clear the wheels. I've done that before on other cars.

The rotor can also be offset inboard to a certain amount as well. There are limitations to both and taking a disc grinder to a caliper that is this valuable is not my idea of a good solution. Not at this point anyway?


I'll see to make some time to post pics of what I've done so far, and some measurements etc.

Btw, a grinder... I used a handsaw, a file, and sandpaper ;-) (really).
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I personally would like to see pictures of anything that you have done to make them work on the car.

I understand what you mean by using spacers on the calipers to move them inboard to clear the wheels. I've done that before on other cars.

The rotor can also be offset inboard to a certain amount as well. There are limitations to both and taking a disc grinder to a caliper that is this valuable is not my idea of a good solution. Not at this point anyway?


I'll see to make some time to post pics of what I've done so far, and some measurements etc.

Btw, a grinder... I used a handsaw, a file, and sandpaper ;-) (really).
Eeker
kidkidMember
Those 18/4’s do have „bumps” on the outside, their sole purpose to be able to add a brand name or logo to the caliper.
Those bumps do add a 3mm per side.

But one has a problem - oho, my calipers are way to wide, and I want to reduce their width as much as possible.
You have a talk with BG, and they say - machine those bumps off, as they are of no use for you.

Me no have machines at my disposal, but two good hands, and lots of hand tools :-)

You take a handsaw, and saw slots in the bump

Once that done, you knock what’s left off by use of a chisel and hammer - easy thingy :-)

Then, the filing starts...

Start with a rough one, end with a fine one…

Almost done :-)


Time for sandpaper…


Fel free to check straightness with a ruler!


The very same caliper repainted after I had the mid section modified too.
More about that later...






Getting things like this done with basic tools, and by hand, I love it! Cool
bosswrenchbosswrenchMember
Modifying brakes -and steering- are both serious subjects and I (or George) assumes no responsibility for your work. Be warned!

For those NOT looking for exact Gr-4 appearances, its pretty simple to adapt Wilwood 4-piston calipers to a '71-76 Pantera. Wilwood Superlite ll calipers have mount holes that are slightly too small. So you elongate the bolt holes and oversize them on new centers closer together. Then using the inner tapped hole with a stock bolt, you mark, drill and metric-tap a third hole for the stock mounting bolt in the steering arm. No adapter needed but you may need a shim to center the pads, depending on what vented rotor you adapt.

On some Panteras, the fresh drilled-&-tapped hole gets VERY close to the edge of the forged-steel steering arm (the reason for respacing the Wilwood mount-holes closer together), so on some cars, a small gas-welded 'lump' of steel can be added and filed smooth, to reinforce the threaded hole against cracking. That part of the steering arm does not take steering loads, only loads from the caliper. Our car was so modified some 16 years ago and no problems so far with thousands of miles and many open track days.

My ATE 2-piston aluminum calipers from a '70s 911-S Porsche look similar to the very expensive aluminum 4-piston race-Girlings and to the calipers shown in above posts. They are front calipers I adapted with a bracket to fit in back, in place of the toy-Girling 1-piston stockers. If you do this, be prepared to rig up some sort of legal e-brake to replace that built into the Girling rear stockers.

The ATEs & vented 911 rotors are good brakes; we lost both front brakes in the OEM master cylinder going to 'Vegas one year with Judy driving. The other Panteras had left 30 minutes before we did. She caught the rest of the Nor-Cal pack in the mountains using only the rears, then stayed with them to 'Vegas. She commented that the brake pedal 'got kinda long....' but otherwise drove fine. I drove us home after the Fun Rally, and replaced the pitted master cylinder with a Byars power assembly. 600 miles on rear brakes only with Porterfield pads. We were not driving 55 mph.
G 72gts 2Member
quote:
Originally posted by Kid:
I'm working on a similar setup as 72GTS.

I'll share what I can answer.

I went for BG's 18/4 for the front, 16/4 with integrated hand brake pads for the rear.

Going to vented in front, solid discs in the back. Discs are available sizes, had the hubs custom made as per own measurements, but general design based upon stock discs.

I can't speak for any stock wheel or so.
I bought mine with Albert wheels - aka, very early BBS wheels, but there would be no way to make those fit with the BG calipers, as they are waaaay wider!
Or you'd have to use spacers, but who would want to run one inch spacers... I don't!

Anyway, I'm switching to other wheels anyway, namely Basset "nascar" wheels, though that did only solve the problem partly. I shipped the 18/4's back to BG and had them made less wide.

The entire package doesn't come cheap, but I wanted to have decent brakes, thought still periodic correct by looks.

Still have to have some things to be modified, and adaptors made.

Work in progress...


Hello Kid
I've been away from my Pantera project for a long time, but will soon work on the car again ... did you make the hats now ? do you have some infos on that please ?
Thanks
Philippe
kidkidMember
Yes Philippe, I do have my discs/hats made.

I can share the (rather basic) drawings I got from BG with you - I'll drop you a pm.

The calipers as they originally were.


And as they are now - "shaved" off bumps, and made less wide.


The shaving made them about 6mm less wide, the other mod did took an other 14mm from their initial width. As a whole their width got reduced by 20mm (0,787 inch).
G 72gts 2Member
quote:
Originally posted by Kid:
Yes Philippe, I do have my discs/hats made.

I can share the (rather basic) drawings I got from BG with you - I'll drop you a pm.

The calipers as they originally were.


And as they are now - "shaved" off bumps, and made less wide.


The shaving made them about 6mm less wide, the other mod did took an other 14mm from their initial width. As a whole their width got reduced by 20mm (0,787 inch).


Kid
What are your wheels specs ? I have Bassett wheels too ... I ´m surprised you had to cut the calipers so much...
Here's my mail
philippe.tourmeau@wanadoo.fr
Kind regards
panteradougpanteradougMember
It's by far the nicest looking "period correct" caliper available. Even so, my question of whether or not it will fit the 15x8 Campi cannot be answered.

I would take an educated guess and say no.

These could be used on the flared fender cars with the Gp4 wheels I think.

There is a reason why the iron Girlings were used by the factory even on the race cars. It has to be that they fit better and with very minor modifications to the stock suspension?

There is only so much that the rotor can be offset inbound before it hits something on the suspension that cannot be moved or changed.

Probably also, the rules must not have permitted locating the hat of the rotor on top of the wheel hub as we would do today?

That just makes so much sense for ease of access to servicing the brakes quickly.



I don't understand how Girling works at all? Almost all of their calipers are variations of basic modules, as in modular design, and reassembled to suit an application more specifically.

Considering they are on virtually every European vehicle of the era, I would have thought they would have cast up light weight versions in aluminum of the existing iron components?

Bosswrench has mentioned "some aluminum Girling calipers". I have never seen any accept the ones that were used on the Competition Cobras and Ford GT40's. Even so, those calipers are nothing to write home about at all.

I do remember a remark I read where Shelby refered to "Girling's crappy brakes". I think I understand where that remark is coming from considering all of these factors?

The Wilwoods are looking better and better. Thanks for posting. This is like attending a "by invitation" brake seminar and the value of this information "is priceless". Thanks.
kidkidMember
Disc offset is indeed something to be careful with.

The more offset inwards, the less wheel spacer you might need, but the thicker your caliper adapter will need to be.

Except for that, the offset is both limited by the steering rack pivot point, and as Doug does mention, the possibility your caliper will hit suspension parts.

Weight and sizes:

Front:
Original calipers (2) without pads 10,92Kg
Modified 18/4 BG calipers (2) without pads 7,48Kg

Original discs 280mm solid (2) 13,28Kg
BG discs alloy hats - 304x28mm vented (2) 13,6Kg

Back:
Original calipers (2) without pads 6,55Kg
BG ORA calipers incl handbrake (2) without pads 7,82Kg

Original discs 297mm solid (2) 14,28Kg
BG discs alloy hats - 290x12,7mm solid (2) 9,24Kg

As for the Campi wheels - dunno...
Would depend on the inside (back) shape of the wheel.

I combine everything with 15X8 and 15x10 steel wheels, and that just barely fits - some things get really close... Red Face
bosswrenchbosswrenchMember
I like Wilwoods, but there is a caveat (which also applies to BG calipers). Neither caliper uses rubber dust shields. They're intended for racing and racing calipers don't stay on a car more than a few minutes past the last race. So dust shields are un-necessary. But on the street, they keep brake pad dust, road grime and who-knows-what away from the pistons.

For the guy who already has a set, could you check the BG caliper pistons? For unknown reasons, most Euro calipers including Ferrari, Porsche and Cobra use nickel-plated mild steel pistons, in place of the almost universal use in the U.S of corrosion-resistant stainless steel. Which is non-magnetic. If your pistons are magnetic, they are almost certainly plated and may pit in low (or no) maintenance street use.
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by Bosswrench:
I like Wilwoods, but there is a caveat (which also applies to BG calipers). Neither caliper uses rubber dust shields. They're intended for racing and racing calipers don't stay on a car more than a few minutes past the last race. So dust shields are un-necessary. But on the street, they keep brake pad dust, road grime and who-knows-what away from the pistons.

For the guy who already has a set, could you check the BG caliper pistons? For unknown reasons, most Euro calipers including Ferrari, Porsche and Cobra use nickel-plated mild steel pistons, in place of the almost universal use in the U.S of corrosion-resistant stainless steel. Which is non-magnetic. If your pistons are magnetic, they are almost certainly plated and may pit in low (or no) maintenance street use.


I'm aware of the "race" only consideration of the engineering on the aftermarket brakes.

I'd prefer to go with a "production based" component. Particularly the calipers.

The aftermarket two-piece rotors with the aluminum hats are less problematic.

I do know that Cobra Automotive, which is a race based Shelby/Ford GT/Cobra shop will not use Wilwoods. Simply put, they have found them of a questionable quality for their purposes.

They used the term "crap" for the Wilwood hats and rotors.

At this point in the discussion, no one has dealt with the actual cost of looking "period" correct for these brakes.

It would appear at this point that using the Girlings that are sourced from other production cars is going to be cost prohibitive?

Even the GT5 Pantera brakes at $1900 each from Wilkinson are out of the question for me.



I did see one Pantera that was raced in the US in the early '70s.

It had the US "big Licoln" calipers and rotors adapted to the front with fabricated adapter plates.

Those Lincoln/T-bird rotors fit right on the Pantera front hubs since they were adapted originally from the production US Mustang. Similarl to what is done on the rear of the Pantera by using the '65 Mustang front rotor back there.

This was the system Shelby used on the '68 Mustang Trans Am Coupes.

The most complicated part to put them on a Pantera is the adapter to go from the Girling bolt pattern to the Kelsey-Hayes US pattern.

The rotors were the original 12" x 1.25" T-bird rotors. Those are no longer available that size. They were cut down to 11-3/4"od.

The rear used the 65 Mustang front vented rotor with the original Pantera front Girling caliper mounted to the front available upright mounting holes, and left the original Pantera rear caliper in place to be used as a hand brake.

It certainly is worthy of the consideration at this point?
kidkidMember
quote:
Originally posted by "72 GTS:
Kid
What are your wheels specs ? I have Bassett wheels too ... I ´m surprised you had to cut the calipers so much...


Philippe,

The size/specs of the Bassets has little to no influence on the fitment.

It is simply the fact the calipers are quite wide.

Other than that it will depend on how much (if any - I choose not to because of my narrow bodied car) spacer you wish to run. You are building a Gr4 rep (wider track), so you should have less issues.

The backside of the wheels does rub the caliper, and an as big issue, the caliper does hit the valve!

With the mods now made, I got rid of these two issues, but still not 100% sure I can get away without spacer - if not, it will be a very thin one (max 2mm).

If I would have thought about the valves, I had the valve holes relocate before I had the (brandnew) wheels sandblasted, powder- and clearcoated!

A test fit with the ORA's in the back - there is about a 2mm gap in between caliper and wheel only...


Since these calipers have an integrated handbrake system, I wanted to get rid of the for me useless extra mounting holes.
This too is mostly a hand job Doug - a handsaw, some files, a Dremel, and sandpaper ;-)


I need to correct too that I'm running 16/4's in front (same size as 18/4's though, but with smaller pistons), and ORA calipers in the back.
7395gr3-757395gr3-75Member 
 

Brake info from FIA Homologation Paper

Stock Brakes	
Girling 4 Piston    		                        Front Brake		  Rear Brake	
                        Pistons / Wheel	                4		          1	
		        Outside Diameter of Piston 2x	42,85 mm   1,68 in	  42,8 mm	1,68 in
		        Outside Diameter of Piston 2x	33,96 mm   1,33 in		
		        Outside Diameter of Disc	282 mm	   11,10 in	  297 mm	11,7 in
		        Thickness of Disc	        20 mm	   0,79 in	  18,5 mm	0,73 in
		        Length of Pads	                93 mm	   3,63 in	  62 mm	        2,44 in
		        Width of Pads	                48 mm	   1,89 in	  48 mm	        1,89 in
		        Total Area of Pads / wheel	89 cm2	   13,8 sq. in	  59,4 mm	9,2 sq. In
							
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------	
GR4 Brakes					
Girling 4 Piston Apr-72		                        Front Brake		  Rear Brake					
  		        
                        Pistons / Wheel	                4	                  4	
		        Outside Diameter of Piston 4x	35 mm			  29,5 mm	
                        Outside Diameter of Disc	304 mm			  304 mm	
	                Thickness of Disc	        28 mm			  28 mm	
	                Length of Pads	                97 mm 		  	  97 mm	
		        Width of Pads	                49 mm			  49 mm	
		        Total Area of Pads / wheel	95 cm2			  95 cm2	

Front Caliper part no	31/32
Rear Caliper part no	33/34

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GR4 Brakes	      	
Lockheed 4 Piston Apr-74	                       Front Brake               Rear Brake
						
 		        Pistons / Wheel	               4			 4	
		        Outside Diameter of Piston 4x  44,5 mm	  1,75 in	 41,25 mm   1,625 in
	                Outside Diameter of Disc       304 mm	  11,97 in	 304 mm	    11,97 in
	                Thickness of Disc	       28 mm	  1,10 in	 28 mm	    1,10 in
		        Length of Pads	               130 mm	  5,12 in	 130 mm	    5,12 in
		        Width of Pads	               50 mm	  1,97 in	 50 mm	    1,97 in
		        Total Area of Pads / wheel     120,8 cm2  18,7 in	 120,8 cm2  18,7 in

Front Caliper part no   507.33.041/042							
Rear Caliper part no    507.33.043/044

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GR4 Brakes
Girling 3 Piston Jul-74	                                Front Brake		 Rear Brake

                        Pistons / Wheel	                3			 3
	                Outside Diameter of Piston 2x	42,5 mm	  1,68 in	 30 mm	    1,18 in
                        Outside Diameter of Piston 1x	60 mm	  2,36 in	 42,5 mm    1,68 in
	                Outside Diameter of Disc	288 mm	  11,35 in	 274,5 mm   10,8 in
	                Thickness of Disc	        31,75 mm  1,25 in	 20 mm	    0,79 in
		        Length of Pads	                114 mm	  4,5 in	 78 mm	    3,07 in
		        Width of Pads	                62 mm	  2,44 in	 45 mm	    1,77 in
		        Total Area of Pads / wheel	115 cm2	  17,825 sq. In	 64 cm2	    9,92 sq. in

Front Caliper part no   506.3.3.064/065
Rear Caliper part no    506.3.3.066/067
Brake Booster 	        506.4.2.007						
Master Cylinder	        506.4.2.008						
Adj valve	        503.3.3.119						
				
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GR3 Brakes			
Girling 3 Piston Jan-75	      		                
(From GR4 except rear disc)				
                                                        Front Brake		  Rear Brake
		        Pistons / Wheel	                3			  3	
		        Outside Diameter of Piston 2x	42,6 mm	  1,68 in	  30 mm	    1,18 in
		        Outside Diameter of Piston 1x	60 mm	  2,36 in	  42,5 mm   1,68 in
                        Outside Diameter of Disc	288 mm	  11,35 in	  297 mm    10,693 in
                        Thickness of Disc	        31,75 mm  1,25 in	  18,5 mm   0,728 in
		        Length of Pads	                114 mm	  4,5 in          78 mm	    3,07 in
		        Width of Pads	                62 mm	  2,44 in	  45 mm	    1,77 in
		        Total Area of Pads / wheel	115 cm2	  17,825 sq. In	  64 cm2    9,92 sq. in


Front Caliper part no   506.3.3.064/065
Rear Caliper part no    506.3.3.066/067
Brake Booster 	        506.4.2.007						
Master Cylinder	        506.4.2.008						
Adj valve	        503.3.3.119							
				
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GR4 Brakes
Lockheed 8 Piston Apr-75	      		        Front Brake			
							
                        Pistons / Wheel	                8				
 		        Outside Diameter of Piston 4x	28,575 mm   1 1/8 in		
                        Outside Diameter of Piston 4x	31,75 mm    1 1/4 in		
		        Outside Diameter of Disc	304 mm	    11,97 in		
		        Thickness of Disc	        28 mm	    1,10 in		
		        Length of Pads	                101,6 mm    4 in		
		        Width of Pads	                49,53 mm    1,95 in		
		        Total Area of Pads / wheel	214,4 cm2   33,23 sq. in		
		        Pads / Caliper	                4

Front Caliper part no   507.33.047/048			

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kidkidMember
I'm still working on the installation of the brakes...lol.

Did not like the use of an additional adaptors for the front calipers, so I had the original parts modified, and the steering arms cut off.

I had the rough shapes - yet to become the final caliper brackets - machined. From now on, the only tools used will be as usual a handsaw, a set of files, and sandpaper :-) Yes, there is still one caliper mounting hole missing, but that's because I was not for a 100% sure where to have it drilled yet.





The hand work started...
Last edited by kid
deniscdeniscCaretaker of 8MA1244 '70 Euro Mangusta DRIVE THEM, THEY WERE MEANT TO BE DRIVEN, IF YOU WANT TO LOOK AT ONE, BUY A POSTER!
I did not catch this originally, must have mixed it with another thread on monster calipers. The calipers shown by Kid are the same as on late Mangusta (Girling BR)

Same as big block Cobras and Lister Jag I was told.

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kidkidMember
quote:
Originally posted by JTpantera:
Nice work, I had no clue where you were going with this initially.


Some more pictures then :-)

The steering arm cut off earlier on covers the bracket. Position of second caliper mounting hole now precisely defined.



I could have had this all machined of course, but doing this manually gives more satisfaction, and in the end more cast-like parts - i.e, as if things came out of the factory this way. Later on the entire assemblies will get powder coated, which will cover up even more this is not stock :-)
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by Denis C:
I did not catch this originally, must have mixed it with another thread on monster calipers. The calipers shown by Kid are the same as on late Mangusta (Girling BR)

Same as big block Cobras and Lister Jag I was told.


Well, sort of. The BB street Cobras were made of iron, the Comp Cars got 'luminum. So did the GT40's under Ford, Shelby and Holman-Moody.

When they became the "Gulf's" under John Wyer in '68 (if you called them GT40's then Wyer would sue you), they used the Girling 18-4, and 16-4 which were aluminum also.

It is unclear, but highly NOT likely that any of these other than the stock Pantera Girlings will fit the "production" Pantera wheels.

The size of the calipers pretty much explains that. The stock Pantera calipers are very compact by comparison.

To me, there are three things that any aftermarket caliper needs on MY Pantera. 1) it fits the stock wheels, 2) they are light weight, 3) they are multi-pistoned, 4) the pads themselves have a significantly larger pad surface area than stock, 5) I can afford them!

OK! ...five things, but don't get me started on counting, I'll probably think of more? Big Grin

@ KID...I absolutely love the adapters that you made!
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by Kid:
I make you believe anything for $100 Doug... lol Big Grin


That's easy. It does seem that I will believe anything sometimes? Big Grin



I agree that it is the inner profile of the wheel that would determine clearance.

Probably there is enough room in the rear with the 10" Campi to run the 16-4 but the front caliper is so thick that I think not.

Considering what those calipers cost, I wouldn't want to buy a set, then be disappointed that the 8 x 15 Campi will not fit without a thick spacer, if at all?

I think that probably a 1/2" thick spacer would still allow the tire to clear the fender lip but why take chances on speculation?



Where's Bosswrench? What do you think? Will those "Girling" 18-4 aluminum calipers fit inside of that wheel? Do I remember correctly in you stating that you have worked on that setup before?

Few have actually seen or worked on that particular combination in person. Very difficult to find that answer without just experimenting "yourself".

THEN you have to go make adapters! Eeker


Incidentally does anyone know if the Girling #'s on the 18-4 and 16-4 calipers refer to anything specifically like the thickness of the rotors used with them etc?

The 18-4 uses the 1.25" (31.75mm) thick rotor, the rear is 7/8" (22.2mm) right?



What was the outside diameter of the rotors that you wound up with Kid? The 12.19" od number keeps popping up but I haven't done specific research yet on this?
kidkidMember
Well, I had no clue at all whether I would get this working before I bought the calipers...lol.

For my application, I went for 28mm vented discs in front, 12,7mm thin solid ones in the back.

As for diameters - in the back I went down from 297 to 290mm, in combination with the new calipers/pads, the best combination (imo).

As for the front - the initial plan was using 304mm ones, but had them machined back to 290mm.

Reasons for this were a better use of the available disc area, and adaptor design.
With the adaptor as I had it in mind, I had unused disc surface (on the outside radial wise), which made no sense.

One going for 304's should have hats made with a larger diameter than I did, otherwise there would be too much unused disc surface on the inside of the disc (radial wise), and which is what I would do if I were to do this again. And since alloy is much lighter than steel...

Have the 304's machined back down to 290mm saved me 780Gr/disc.
bosswrenchbosswrenchMember
I worked on iron-caliper Girling GR-3 brakes on a non-GR-3 car with Gotti 15 x 10" wheels running Hoosier tires. With different wheels/tires and aluminum Girlings (stock on Mangustas but not Panteras except GR-4s), you simply have to try it. I own a machine shop so yes- I COULD make the combo fit. It may not look 'stock' at the end but that word is never applied to race cars- or their brakes- anyway.
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by Bosswrench:
I worked on iron-caliper Girling GR-3 brakes on a non-GR-3 car with Gotti 15 x 10" wheels running Hoosier tires. With different wheels/tires and aluminum Girlings (stock on Mangustas but not Panteras except GR-4s), you simply have to try it. I own a machine shop so yes- I COULD make the combo fit. It may not look 'stock' at the end but that word is never applied to race cars- or their brakes- anyway.


I did that with a set of Lincoln/Big Ford/Thunderbird calipers on my 68 GT350.

In order to get the calipers to clear the inside the wheel, they had to machined down to clear.

They looked beautiful and cleared but the first time I tried the brakes the caliper cracked through the casting into the piston bore.

It had been machined down so far that the hydraulic pressure from the brake system cracked the cast iron caliper. Eeker

Those aluminum Mangusta calipers are the same I believe as on the big block 427 comp Cobras.

Big bucks just for that reason.

Comes back to Wilwood or leave them stock. I would like to run 1.25" front rotors and go with vented in the rear with the hats over the flanges.

Using any kind of Girling brakes is just too expensive for little gained.

I don't need to satisfy the vintage racing rules.

I saw one US raced Pantera (pictures) with the 67 Tbird calipers and rotors adapted.

I'll go that route if I can find the aluminum calipers. So far they have been very elusive.

I'm not sure I like the configuration of the adapter they would need though?

Girling are 3" center to center and the KH are 5". That is actually so close it makes the adapter complicated to make.

Wilwoods are simpler, can be purchased with the right 3" bolt spacings and any hat can be made to use any rotor that they make.

Lots of weight savings there, just whether or not the calipers clear the wheels?

I, like Kid, like the "engineering challenge" to make everything fit and work.

We will see. Perfect time wise to do it. Temperature wise, the garage is too cold. I mean after all it is 18 F outside with 50 mph winds?

Radiant heat in the floor would have been perfect. Turn on the "happy light" and I'd think I was in Florida.

I could even dump all the glass bead from the blast cabinet on the floor and think I'm on the beach in Miami? Cool
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I, like Kid, like the "engineering challenge" to make everything fit and work.


Isen't driving a DeTomaso one big challenge... Big Grin


No I don't think so. Stock L's are relatively trouble free. Issues develop when they get "modified" or "improved".

By the time the L was in production Detomaso pretty much had it all solved.
panterachrispanterachrisMember
I have a set of JFZ calipers, I believe they are early racing upgrades for the Pantera.
quote:
Originally posted by Kid:
Well, mine is for sure a challenge, and I don't even drive the thing (for now)...lol Big Grin

Rear hubs are out for the last necessary mods to get the rear brakes fit (I needed a drill press, which I don't have). Hopefully I got the measurements right, or they are wasted, ha, ha... Big Grin
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by pantera chris:
I have a set of JFZ calipers, I believe they are early racing upgrades for the Pantera.
quote:
Originally posted by Kid:
Well, mine is for sure a challenge, and I don't even drive the thing (for now)...lol Big Grin

Rear hubs are out for the last necessary mods to get the rear brakes fit (I needed a drill press, which I don't have). Hopefully I got the measurements right, or they are wasted, ha, ha... Big Grin


JFZ went away a long time ago but other than the 5" bolt pattern, I'd say yes, they would solve a lot of issues?
kidkidMember
Had the spindles fixed - no need to build new ones Smiler

Got all suspension parts finished, had all parts sandblasted, metallized, and powder coated.

Last and final pre-assembly fit - new studs, bearings, rubber seals, and bolts (the 10mm bolts upgraded to 10.9 grade).

I'm happy with the result - everything fits perfectly, and is the way I want (so far Big Grin ).





kidkidMember
quote:
Originally posted by jb1490:
Kid,

Nice work!! Looks great!! Not to hijack this thread, but I noticed the very thick spacers between the upper ball joint and the a-arm. The upper a-arm must have been modified?

It's difficult to tell from the pics, but do you have enough caster with the spacers (shims) as you have them installed? Just curious.

John


Indeed - arms have been modded by Johnny Woods in the UK.
Now provided of camber lock, and adjustable castor.
3 shims of different thickness do allow multiple combinations to get to the required castor.
The only thing I did afterwards was to weld all arm seams all the way through.
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