Looking for a Weber 4V intake any help would be appreciated.
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Did you try Hall Pantera?
Borla and EFI Hardware in Australia both have a 351C IDA manifold made specifically for EFI. I suspect EFI Hardware is the manufacturer. Nice manifold for EFI. It has a cast-in vacuum chamber for a MAP sensor and for an IAC if you use one.
Thank you I have sent a number of emails without a response.
I will call them today
Hi,
I have an unused redline IDA manifold that I purchased for my Pantera but have moved in a different direction so may be interested in parting with it. It is 2V sized but has room for 4V porting which I think are the only type available.
http://hallpantera.com/cgi-bin...a-inc&item=22759
This is an updated version of the Detomasso lettered manifold. It has thicker flanges and better casting finish.
It's available two ways from Hall. One for the original 4v iron heads and one for the "high port" Motorsport aluminum heads such as the A3, B351, C302 heads. You can't use one on the other.
The picture above is of the high port version. The intake runners are 5/8" higher at the head intake port. The 4v version typically shows more flange at that point.
I've used both versions. Currently, the high port on A3 heads.
They are intended for use on a Pantera. That's why the linkage tower is cast in to it. That is Pantera "unique". The Pantera uses a throttle cable that pulls on the linkage bellcrank. Other applications do not and you will likely need to use a carb adapter kit that puts the full inlet/throttles in parallel.
That works but because you loose line of sight to the valve on one side, you loose power as a result and it is noticeable.
The distance from the carb mounting flange to the valve is optimized for both power and response on this particular manifold. The Australian manifolds are not.
It "is said" that Ford had "Holman-Moody" design, build and dyno the original manifold for Detomaso. They first appeared on the Euro Group 4 factory race cars around 1972.
If you intend to use it on another application like on a Mustang, the tower is in the way and you use different linkage mounted on the drivers side over the valve cover.
You didn't say what you intend to use it on. Not everything done on a Pantera 351c is transferable to another application. There are a few unique Pantera applications.
With other aftermarket heads such as CHI, you are on your own. Most likely you will need to use their intakes to match the heads. The Hall and Detomaso manifold likely will only EASILY fit the Ford heads.
As Doug said, there are several Weber intake manifolds depending on which heads you intend to use and some will not interchange. Some are cast-lettered 'DeTomaso' and some are not. Plus, original Weber 48 IDA carbs have been out of production from Weber-Italy since the mid- '90s when the company was sold. They were last reproduced in Spain later- with visible differences- and today I have no idea where castings are made. Some weber-lookalikes are much larger than 48mm, used on dune buggies. There are also at least three different types of Heim-jointed linkage. There are EFI throttle bodies from TWM that look similar to Weber carbs, and might be a solution for some.
Be prepared for even NOS Weber carbs that have never been on an engine to leak gas when first run, due to the seals and gaskets drying up over 50-60 years of sitting on a shelf. They may need rebuilding right out of the box. A sorted, running setup is a better choice than all-NOS. There are a few places that stock jets, venturis and floats for tuning these carbs, which are complex to get running well. There are five jets and two air-bleeds for each cylinder and you have 8 cylinders. The usual is to either have good power and poor mileage, or tolerable mileage and low power. Don't want to discourage you, but a set of Weber carbs may need considerable expert dyno tuning. Good luck.
EMPI is currently "reproducing" 48 ida's (and 51's). I'm quite sure they are being cast in China, machined and assembled here.
They are very close in appearances but I honestly don't know if original parts interchange or not.
With 51mm bores, they are 48's bored out to 51 and those I have seen and the throats are very thin.
51's are mostly VW "Dune Buggy" applications but "technically" a 351c should be a 51mm throttle bore, not a 48mm.
Having said that, i.e., "technically what should work", doesn't always work out?
I would point out that Ford had a few sets of 58mm IDA's made for the GT40 program with the 427 "lightweight" engines. (1965ish)
Neither of the two American teams, Shelby-American or Holman-Moody ran them in competition going to an 850cfm Holley. So apparently they couldn't get them to "work", and if those guys couldn't, I'm a mere mortal, I wouldn't expect to be able to either.
Incidentally. Those 58mm IDA's came in a mahogany case, serial numbered. It's "thought" that no more then a dozen sets were made but that is all "inner sanctum" stuff and was WAY under the table for mortals.
Thank you for the responses always great info here. My plan is to use it as a basis for a stack injection set up. I have ordered the Hall manifold but all they have are the high port examples was hoping to find a 4v intake and use chi 4v heads. does anybody have experience port matching chi 3v heads to this intake?
Since it's for EFI, why not get the EFI Hardware / Borla intake? Just tell them you're using CHI-4V (or 3V?) heads on a 351C block and they'll supply it with the appropriate intake ports. Also, the cast-in plenum saves you from having to run 8 vacuum lines to a remote plenum for your MAP sensor and perhaps an IAC.
OYE! The "high-port" manifold intake ports are 5/8" higher and 5/8" shorter on the bottom. They look like BB Chevy rectangular ports.
It will not match up with the bottom of a "Ford 4v" intake port as it is 5/8" too short.
You will see what I am talking about when you get it.
"Normally" in this situation (if there is such a thing), you need to make a plate to cover the bottom of the port on the head which has a 4v port.
2v CHI ports don't help the situation since the bottom of the ports are in the same spot as the bottom of the 4v's.
I had done this on one setup but was concerned that the plate would warp from the engine heat and develop vacuum leaks.
IF this match up issue happens and you don't trust your own volition, then you can go to Price Performance (he's on the web) and have him make a spacer plate for you. It's one of his favorite things to do with his cnc mill. He's not expensive on it either.
In any case, best of luck with this project. EFI 8 stacks run great on that manifold. The ONLY issue you are going to have is you won't want to get it dirty and won't keep staring at it. It's pretty!
"Thank you for the responses always great info here. My plan is to use it as a basis for a stack injection set up."
Aha! There was once a popular mod called "drying up the Webers". Essentially, the Weber carbs were not plumbed for fuel at all but only functioned as air throttle valves. The fuel got in the heads vis regular EFI injection. Often paired with hidden fuel rails and injectors mounted on the inside of the intake 'vee'. Kind of a complicated way to do EFI but it did work and maintained the vintage look.
@bosswrench posted:"Thank you for the responses always great info here. My plan is to use it as a basis for a stack injection set up."
Aha! There was once a popular mod called "drying up the Webers". Essentially, the Weber carbs were not plumbed for fuel at all but only functioned as air throttle valves. The fuel got in the heads vis regular EFI injection. Often paired with hidden fuel rails and injectors mounted on the inside of the intake 'vee'. Kind of a complicated way to do EFI but it did work and maintained the vintage look.
The Borla 8stacks are IDA clones with fuel injectors hidden within. The only issue is that you double the price of the entire system with EFI v. carbs.
If you go with EFI then you won't get to see the flames coming out of the carb stacks in the dark at start up.
Contacted Borla and they would not sale intake separate. I've ordered an intake from EFI but keep getting mixed messages. My plan is to weld in injector bungs and use IPSCO throttle body's. To those who have never used IPSCO I have found Mark to be a great resource and all around great guy.
You need to contact Kelly Coefield, aka, panterror here. PM him here.
He did an entire project of casting intake manifolds and manufacturing throttle bodies to fit under the original engine cover on the Pantera.
What he did sounds suspiciously like what you are planning?
He may have enough parts left for your project.
I'd suggest that you freeze this project now until you speak with him in detail.
He already made an intake (had them cast and machined) just like you are describing making. He probably has some left?
I found this additional information for contacting him. He is now know as the "Ford Autolite Guy".
kcoffield@InlineCarb.com, kcoffield@mchsi.com
Kelly's intake manifold was designed for a 9.5" block and SVO C302B heads or the Brodix equivalent. He did machine a few for 9.2" blocks. Kelly cast these manifolds in 2008. All were spoken for before he cast the first one, although I understand a few people backed out when it was time to pay. These manifolds all eventually found homes. I seriously doubt he has any left after 13 years and I've never seen one come up for sale.
You won't know for sure unless you ask him?
If it were me I would have stashed away a few and maybe would be tired of looking at them hanging on the wall?
Kelly can answer for himself I am sure.
Thank you. I’ve sent Kelly a private message
This can be a fun project but jumping to conclusions and buying up everything in site and then finding out you can't use any of it OR you saw a setup that you like better is just going to cost you needlessly unless you like using all the parts as wall art?
You can be more patient. I doubt that anyone is going to buy anything out from under you on the exact same project?
You could consider the Aussie Speed IDF manifold (2V ports with enough meat to port to 4V) and use an adapter plate to IDA bolt pattern. But there's really no need as IDF pattern throttle bodies are available as well.