PTA, I created a new topic for your question.
George
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Pardon my intrusion..I'm just a fan, not an owner. 
My first (running) Pantera experience I was in a convience store parking lot at night in an parked car when the car started shaking, a deafening noise was thumping, I was looking up because I thought a UH-1 was actually landing on me,... then I saw a black GT-5 IDLE by my window...egad.
I admire you guy's pluck to keep those Clevelands running strong and I'm sure the nostalgia and purist in you all wants to keep them running like an NAA Mustang owner wants to keep his plane flying..
However, I see owners inquiring here considering opening their engine up and BEGINNING their quest for a 450-550hp engine, my question is..
Unless one already had a garage of Cleveland parts and good support, wouldn't it be better to put the Cleveland in a box for prosperity and car value; then bolt together a SVO Windsor 392 short and some Kaas/Jegs canted valve aluminum heads? its still a 550+ hp engine, without the inventment and hunt for expertise to make the Cleveland run durably at those levels, plus its lighter.
I humbly inquire...does being exotic trump the practicality of this option?
go easy on me, please!
My first (running) Pantera experience I was in a convience store parking lot at night in an parked car when the car started shaking, a deafening noise was thumping, I was looking up because I thought a UH-1 was actually landing on me,... then I saw a black GT-5 IDLE by my window...egad.
I admire you guy's pluck to keep those Clevelands running strong and I'm sure the nostalgia and purist in you all wants to keep them running like an NAA Mustang owner wants to keep his plane flying..
However, I see owners inquiring here considering opening their engine up and BEGINNING their quest for a 450-550hp engine, my question is..
Unless one already had a garage of Cleveland parts and good support, wouldn't it be better to put the Cleveland in a box for prosperity and car value; then bolt together a SVO Windsor 392 short and some Kaas/Jegs canted valve aluminum heads? its still a 550+ hp engine, without the inventment and hunt for expertise to make the Cleveland run durably at those levels, plus its lighter.
I humbly inquire...does being exotic trump the practicality of this option?
go easy on me, please!
Part Time,
I think one answer I and other owners will give you is that a Cleveland engine "belongs" in the Pantera.
Conversion to any other motor including the Windsor generally involves added expense in replumbing the coolant system, new brackets for the accesories, reworking the exhaust system, modifying the wiring. Most swaps involve an engine that is dimensionally larger than the Cleveland in one way or another, i.e. wider, taller or longer.
Finally, let me point out that the regular production 351W block is a thin wall casting identicle to the Cleveland and has the same limitations. It is not any lighter either.
Having said all that, some owners do indeed choose to purchase a Windsor crate motor, and we all support one another in the decisions each of us makes. One way in which the Pantera community differs from those of other Italian sports cars is that modifications are accepted. It is common at a gathering of Panteras to have a concouse original car sitting next to an extremely modified one, and both are equally accepted.
Oh, by the way, I DO have a garage full of Cleveland parts! lol..................
your friend on the DTBB, George
I think one answer I and other owners will give you is that a Cleveland engine "belongs" in the Pantera.
Conversion to any other motor including the Windsor generally involves added expense in replumbing the coolant system, new brackets for the accesories, reworking the exhaust system, modifying the wiring. Most swaps involve an engine that is dimensionally larger than the Cleveland in one way or another, i.e. wider, taller or longer.
Finally, let me point out that the regular production 351W block is a thin wall casting identicle to the Cleveland and has the same limitations. It is not any lighter either.
Having said all that, some owners do indeed choose to purchase a Windsor crate motor, and we all support one another in the decisions each of us makes. One way in which the Pantera community differs from those of other Italian sports cars is that modifications are accepted. It is common at a gathering of Panteras to have a concouse original car sitting next to an extremely modified one, and both are equally accepted.
Oh, by the way, I DO have a garage full of Cleveland parts! lol..................
your friend on the DTBB, George
And then some....
quote:
Oh, by the way, I DO have a garage full of Cleveland parts! lol..................
your friend on the DTBB, George
Actually from reading here and on the email newsletter there are a lot of Pantera guys who do put all fdifferant kinds of engines in their cars. One guy here even talked about putting in a small block chebbie. I have heard of modular conversions, Big block chebbie and FORD, a guy in europe has a chrysler Hemi in his, and one guy is even thinking about putting in a Lexus V8 just cause he got one for free.
I am one of those guys who opted to pull the Cleveland for the Windsor. I reviewed the problem as a case of supply and demand. There is a heck of a lot more go fast parts for windsor's then clevelands. This has the benefit of options and better prices on some components.
I pulled my cleveland and placed it in the corner of my shop, keeping it for the future owner of the car in the event they want to keep a "matching" car.
I figure if I grenade the windsor, "who cares" it was just a crate motor. Keeping the factory "original" engine for the purist.
I pulled my cleveland and placed it in the corner of my shop, keeping it for the future owner of the car in the event they want to keep a "matching" car.
I figure if I grenade the windsor, "who cares" it was just a crate motor. Keeping the factory "original" engine for the purist.
There is no speed limit in Nevada..right? That's Why!
I guess the question was why not replace the cleveland ???
I guess the answer is simple, it came in the car and I guess its a little more of a challange to build some thing rather then replace it with a drop in crate motor ? Isnt that what this is all about, creativity and ingenuity. I guess after all my years in racing cars it boils down to the thickness of cylinder walls. I had the same issues with FE's and YES the windsors the factory blocks are thin too.
Its always the same. Unless your building an aftermarket block the standard production block never has enough to go more then 40 over and thats the economics of the manufacturers. The crate motors, unless it has an after market Dart or SVO etc, you have the same worries only the carte motor builder didnt tell you to worry.
The 351C for 90% of the crowd is good, for me I, put the pedal to the medal and want to feel HP / RPM.
Tell me something ??? George start a new forum, please. How many people have blown a motor ??? Lets here the stories. And I'm not talking overheating and running out of oil.......... that will tell you who should be worrying about blowning a 351C and who should not.... I think its simple.....
Ron
I guess the answer is simple, it came in the car and I guess its a little more of a challange to build some thing rather then replace it with a drop in crate motor ? Isnt that what this is all about, creativity and ingenuity. I guess after all my years in racing cars it boils down to the thickness of cylinder walls. I had the same issues with FE's and YES the windsors the factory blocks are thin too.
Its always the same. Unless your building an aftermarket block the standard production block never has enough to go more then 40 over and thats the economics of the manufacturers. The crate motors, unless it has an after market Dart or SVO etc, you have the same worries only the carte motor builder didnt tell you to worry.
The 351C for 90% of the crowd is good, for me I, put the pedal to the medal and want to feel HP / RPM.
Tell me something ??? George start a new forum, please. How many people have blown a motor ??? Lets here the stories. And I'm not talking overheating and running out of oil.......... that will tell you who should be worrying about blowning a 351C and who should not.... I think its simple.....
Ron
I have spent good money machining a block square and making the cylinders round. I have bought custom pistons, new H beam rods, forged stroked crank. I also bought some of best CNC ported heads available. When it was all said and done I spent 9K on this small block mopar motor and it still had the factory thin wall block. It runs great but I'm afraid to add nitrous or any other power enhancers to this 500+ HP motor for fear of those thin walls giving up and destroying all those nice parts I put in this factory thin wall block.
I should have started with a better foundation, an after-market block.
That's my 2 cents
The Pantera gets a Dart block from the start.
I should have started with a better foundation, an after-market block.
That's my 2 cents
The Pantera gets a Dart block from the start.
Mark, isn't 500 bhp enough?
George
George
quote:
How many people have blown a motor ??? Lets here the stories. And I'm not talking overheating and running out of oil.......... that will tell you who should be worrying about blowning a 351C and who should not.... I think its simple.....
Ron
Ron, I blew up my motor. Completely fragmented it. Little tiny, itsy bitsy pieces laying in the oil pan with a great big gapping hole out it's side. Smoke came pouring out the back in big billowing clouds, just like when a NASCAR car let's go. And I have never raced the car, not even once.
All that happened was my son wanted to work on the car. So I told him he could do a tune up for me because I knew it had too much advance dialed in. After he finished I asked him if he was sure he had the right firing order. He said he was positive and had checked it twice. SO I drove the car and it backfired a lot. SO I brought it back and said he should check it again. He did and when I asked he got all pissed off. Like I had questioned his masculinity or something. SO I drove it again only this time I gave it full throttle. Well it started to rattle like it had a bad lifetr or something. SO I brought it back and insisted that checking one more time had nothing to do with the size of his penis. Sure enough he had two wires crossed. So as I drove it the backfiring went away and the rattling kept getting worse. Before I could get home, less than one mile from my house at a speed of 35 miles per hour, she let loose. Dumped oil and water everywhere. Had to have her towed home. When the dissassembled the engine it had of course thrown a rod, just like George had said, but the block broke right where he said it would. Up above the main bearings and below the camshaft. In fact it shered the camshaft into several pieces. The blaock was totaled. The heads looked untouched and I was able to save them. The crank was all broken up. A piston was siezed in a cylinder. The rod that had let loose looked like a pretzle. I showed some parts to a guy who has bracket raced his whole life. He said he had never seen one quite as bad as mine.
Anyway it can happen even with gentle use. The Cleveland is weak. They ran out of money when they designed the bottom end of the block as close as I can figure. They put monster heads on a weenie block. That is why a Clevor based Drt motor is so awesome. It won't blow up like a fragmentation grenade!!!
DeTom my friend,
Honestly, this was Ford's fault?
I think under your circumstances, a 427 SOHC would have puked its guts too, a Dart block would not have escaped without damage. Sorry. The damage had been done before the plug wires were corrected. The pin had been pulled on the grenade!
The motor was crying out, "stop driving, turn me off, tow me home, I'm not well". If as soon as the sound of a stuck lifter developed you had shut the motor down, you probably could have gotten by with just grinding the rod journals undersize.
Internet connection at work is still down, I'm at home, but gotta get going.
Your friend on the DTBB, George
Honestly, this was Ford's fault?
I think under your circumstances, a 427 SOHC would have puked its guts too, a Dart block would not have escaped without damage. Sorry. The damage had been done before the plug wires were corrected. The pin had been pulled on the grenade!
The motor was crying out, "stop driving, turn me off, tow me home, I'm not well". If as soon as the sound of a stuck lifter developed you had shut the motor down, you probably could have gotten by with just grinding the rod journals undersize.
Internet connection at work is still down, I'm at home, but gotta get going.
Your friend on the DTBB, George
quote:Originally posted by george pence:
Finally, let me point out that the regular production 351W block is a thin wall casting identicle to the Cleveland and has the same limitations. It is not any lighter either.
?? It is my understanding the Windsor is 50lbs lighter than the Cleveland.
The W block is about 2 pounds lighter than a C block.
George
George
quote:Originally posted by george pence:
DeTom my friend,
Honestly, this was Ford's fault?
I think under your circumstances, a 427 SOHC would have puked its guts too, a Dart block would not have escaped without damage. Sorry. The damage had been done before the plug wires were corrected. The pin had been pulled on the grenade!
The motor was crying out, "stop driving, turn me off, tow me home, I'm not well". If as soon as the sound of a stuck lifter developed you had shut the motor down, you probably could have gotten by with just grinding the rod journals undersize.
Internet connection at work is still down, I'm at home, but gotta get going.
Your friend on the DTBB, George
Sigh, I know now George. But I didn't know you well enough back then to take your word as gopsel. I know better now. I shoulda listened to ya. My fault entirely.
I will go and slit my wrists now. It is the only honorable thing to do.
Hold on there DeTom,
there'll be no self mutilation while I'm the moderator!
screw honor! Just drik a few buttery nipples & calm down. didn't mom teach you it was all right to make mistakes? no need to go bleeding all over the carpets at work. to err is human, buttery nipples are divine.
Besides, I've never heard of an engineer getting all emotional and hurting themselves, they normally just stick post it notes all over their monitors! lol................
Look, I'm on the intenet, each screen is taking about an hour to load! ssssssssllllllllloooooow...........
your friend on the DTBB, George
there'll be no self mutilation while I'm the moderator!
screw honor! Just drik a few buttery nipples & calm down. didn't mom teach you it was all right to make mistakes? no need to go bleeding all over the carpets at work. to err is human, buttery nipples are divine.
Besides, I've never heard of an engineer getting all emotional and hurting themselves, they normally just stick post it notes all over their monitors! lol................
Look, I'm on the intenet, each screen is taking about an hour to load! ssssssssllllllllloooooow...........
your friend on the DTBB, George
quote:Besides, I've never heard of an engineer getting all emotional and hurting themselves, they normally just stick post it notes all over their monitors! lol................
That is the way it was back in the good old days. Now we try and emulate the Japaneese in everything we do. Along with that comes sapuku and all that honor stuff. I sure miss the good old days.
Naw I was just kidding about slitting the wrist thing. After all it is just a car. :O
I did get in a big fight with my son over it though. I didn't say anything when it happened, but on fathers day he was acting kind of dickish so I let it out. It cleared the air I guess. But there are good things about having a new engine. I fill up with regular now, costs a lot less. It starts now even when the engine is hot. It leaks less. All kinds of positives.
500HP should be enough! But you never know when your going to want more. Thats where I'm at with my little Mopar I want more. I going to add Nitrous. Do I run it till it blows or buy new block, pistons and do the machine work again to be safe.
Thats the question? Probably no one really knows the answer for sure.
Thats one of the main reasons I decided to go with the Dart block for the Pantera from the start.
Thats the question? Probably no one really knows the answer for sure.
Thats one of the main reasons I decided to go with the Dart block for the Pantera from the start.
quote:Originally posted by Mark Mensen:
500HP should be enough! But you never know when your going to want more. Thats where I'm at with my little Mopar I want more. I going to add Nitrous. Do I run it till it blows or buy new block, pistons and do the machine work again to be safe.
Thats the question? Probably no one really knows the answer for sure.
Thats one of the main reasons I decided to go with the Dart block for the Pantera from the start.
Mr. Magneson, instead of running a bunch of nitrous and melting the pistons, why not get a mondo blower and run thirty pounds of boost??? That way you will only blow a head gasket and will be able to save your engine after the gasket blows.
Bracket racing.....or track time? you get to run on the track!! LOL
Melting pistons should not be a problem if nitrous is installed right. What I worry about is the increased pressures generated by any power adders on the cylinder walls and main caps on a factory block. This includes blowers, turbos, and nitrous on 500+ HP motors
Ok I didnt mean to bring it to the point where you slit your wrists !! LOL To many Buttery nipples last night George... did you notice ???
Detom - Sorry but - Let me add " wrong firing order to the list of Overheating and no oil " Sorry !!! LOL
Matt - Ithink the W is lighter because of the heads - Is that correct George ?
ENGINEERS ??? LOL Oh blame everybody else !!! LOL Oh had to say that !!
Lastpushbutton - YEA !!! Track time ! I rest my case... 2 events a year a little hammer time !! Thats just when I would like to be able to put the peddle to the metal and have the engine not puke all over the track.
Detom - Sorry but - Let me add " wrong firing order to the list of Overheating and no oil " Sorry !!! LOL
Matt - Ithink the W is lighter because of the heads - Is that correct George ?
ENGINEERS ??? LOL Oh blame everybody else !!! LOL Oh had to say that !!
Lastpushbutton - YEA !!! Track time ! I rest my case... 2 events a year a little hammer time !! Thats just when I would like to be able to put the peddle to the metal and have the engine not puke all over the track.
Mark I agree, but your using a Mopar block ? The 340 / 360 were pretty strong ? But naturally aspired motors are my favorite.
Ron
Ron
We're just talkng about the weight of the bare blocks. Going by memory, the C is 172 lbs, the W is 170 lbs.
They are both thin wall castings. Both have the same bore centers, same bell housing & motor mounts. The W has 0.3" taller decks, but the C has that cast timing chain compartment in front.
Ron, apparently you work with engineers too! lol.......
your friend on the DTBB, George
They are both thin wall castings. Both have the same bore centers, same bell housing & motor mounts. The W has 0.3" taller decks, but the C has that cast timing chain compartment in front.
Ron, apparently you work with engineers too! lol.......
your friend on the DTBB, George
Detom you make me glad I have two girls after reading the post on your son and that motor. LOL...
I'm sorry because I know it wasn't funny when it all happened.
I'm sorry because I know it wasn't funny when it all happened.
Sorry, I was away for a few days...
thank you all for entertaining my inquiry!
PTA
thank you all for entertaining my inquiry!
PTA
quote:Originally posted by Mark Mensen:
Detom you make me glad I have two girls after reading the post on your son and that motor. LOL...
I'm sorry because I know it wasn't funny when it all happened.
Oh I am all over it by now Mark. At least I think I am. I will feel lots better after the loan is paid off, two years from now. ;(
quote:Originally posted by PartTimeAdult:
Sorry, I was away for a few days...
thank you all for entertaining my inquiry!
PTA
PTA, you're welcome my friend.
sorry, it's not uncommon for us to get off topic around here, as you have read for yourself.
How to upgrade the Pantera's power plant for more power is a common topic for owners to post. Not necessarily controversial, but when the topic comes up it draws a lot of attention and a lot of differing opinions. We're all different, what is logical to me will not necessarily appeal to somebody else. We all throw a lot of info at the person posing the question, and slowly watch over the months as they make their decision. Whatever that may be, we stand behind them in their decision, wish them the best possible results, and help anyway we can.
This community of owners is the biggest reason owning a Pantera is BITCHEN!
George