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Thanks for the pic Marlin!

I'm VERY familiar with the Chapparels. Watching vids of the moveable one are killer

Chapparel, like Shadows, were forward thinkers, ahead of their time.

Other faves are the "vacum cleaner" car, which had a second snowmobile engine mounted at the back of the car, sucking the air from inside the body, causing great suction. They had nylon runners that scraped along the ground on the sides to make a better seal.

They were also one of the first cars to race with automatic transmissions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWzUsW18k3c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWlfkAjZeac
In that pic he's removed his rear bumper/end. A lot of guys do that at the track. The cars look pretty cool even without the rear bodywork IMO.

They also definitely do the wang thang, the one in the pic is actually kind of cool as well IMO.

Since my car is a bit departed from the standard "look" of most panteras (wheels, chrome "gills", flush-mount window,) I'm considering a wing, but thinking about keeping with the departed theme. Maybe go with a GT style wing, or ducktail.

At the end of this vid you'll see the ducktail wing I'm liking the look of a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reFkWi6C_44
...I was invited, and attended a showing of Italian Built Cars, at the 'Tutti-in-Piazza', up in Stockton, One Year. It was a Garden Party Atmosphere, Celebrating Italy. live music, Great Food, Wine. Wonderful People.
Beautiful Women Loved the Pantera, and were Invited to place their Wine Glasses on the Wing, as a table, Using Coasters, of course. When asked to see the Engine, after retrieving their Drinks, I 'popped the hood'. They were Impressed with the American V-8, and were Blown Away by the Dual Quads.

Life is Good!

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  • katt_livmore_009
Last edited by marlinjack
quote:
Originally posted by Marlin Jack:
...Yes, I was going to mention the 'Vacuum Cleaner' Car.

About the Wing...I can only think about the Drag involved. How much extra does it 'Cost' Me, in MPG, to haul that thing Around!? I can feel it sway, as being 'Top-Heavy', in cross-winds and in cornering hard. It was already on the car when I purchased her. Down-force? Don't really need it. It's just on there for 'Looks'.
I once attended a showing at the 'Tutti-en-Piottsa' (sp?), up in Stockton, one year.
Beautiful Women Loved the car, and were Invited to place their Cocktails on the Wing, as a table. Using a Coaster, ofcourse.


If I remember correctly, the Pantera doesn't need more down force in the rear. It needs it in the front.

The nose gets a little loose around 170.

Even the sugar scoop is something lifted from Ferrari and isn't needed.

The Lamborghini style wing exists simply because Detomaso didn't want to be out cooled by a Countach.

Lamborghini said that the rear wing hold back the top speed from 205 to 199-200.

Now considering that they never had their own test track and always tested on the street with the PROVO license plates on the cars, frankly I don't think I would have wanted to live withing driving distance of Lamborghini.

205 down my street is just a little over the top in my view? Wink


Rear wings on Panteras are all for the "wow factor".
There was a road test in the '80s with a GT-5 in England at one of their famous tracks. The magazine guys ran the car with & without the rear wing. They said the car felt the same either way but their lap times with the wing- surprisingly- were several seconds faster. This is the only back-to-back test on a Pantera I've ever seen printed.

Silver State runners are the only ones that really know the effects of properly mounted wings- which may not be at the stock mount angle. With an effective front air dam, one successful SS runner said his '73 really needed a small NASCAR-type rear blade, carefully angled, to rebalance the thing over 175. Otherwise, the rear end began to get light. This is exactly what happened during the famous magazine top-end test of a Countache vs a Ferrari Boxer at the 5 mile long banked Ohio test track: without the wing, the Countache picked up 15 mph but left black marks on the track at 180 mph swapping lanes as the rear end jiggled around. The pro driver said he would not make a second try without the wing! Ferrari declined to remove their rear spoiler. Oversteer at those speeds will give you religion.... And Nor-Cal's Bob Bensen still swears his big dirt-based wing helps in high speed runs on his '71 Pantera. Obviously if you don't spend much time way up the speedo dial, a rear wing will be so much decoration. But it appears as if they do have a place for a few.
quote:
Originally posted by JFB #05177:
quote:
Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
..the 1970 Plymouth SuperBird..


IF I had not abandon my rebuild back in the early 80's.......
In your rendering it appears the wing could have been mounted to the body & the deck lid would clear the wing upon opening.

I personally would NEVER mount a wing to the rear deck lid, in my opinion...Waaaaaaaaaay TOO MUCH FLEX!!!

Plus I want the wing's down force as WIDE as possible, over the outer rim of the tires!!!...Mark
If you look at what Ford did on the GT40 and even Shelby did on the Cobra Coupe, they fabricated a duck tale from aluminum sheet. Probably something like 16 gauge. Just a flat piece and as I remembered they would take a pair of "tin snips" and trim it in practice to get the down force where the driver wanted it.

One version I saw just had slots in it where the bolts would hold it to some "pop-nut-certs" and the mechanics would just adjust it up and down.

If you are building a comp-car, that's what I would consider.

All in all, these things are going to be difficult to get just right unless you have track time. They definitely are aimed at the 150-200 mph vicinity.

Probably under that they are just cosmetics and you put them where they look right?

All you would need to do with a Pantera is form one on a brake and just trim it.

Anything molded is going to add weight.

The blue car part looks a little like what Chevy did on the 67-8 Camaros with the fiberglass molded bolt on part.
The air going under the front of the car and lifting the nose is why I ducted the air through the hood and blocked off the air going under the car. I am not sure I will ever get a chance to drive it where it really matters but it was the purpose.

The AMX had nose lift where speeds over 90-100mph were actually dangerous which was a real problem with the car.
I've never been a big fan of the delta wing and it they seem to be fading in popularity as their was only one at the Fun Rally. Ironically, it was on my car and it is the Amerisport version. It is my preferred model of the delta wings because it is thinner and is molded to flow with the Pantera's lines. The outside ends are angled down to match the roll of the decklid into the body. As a result it looks less like a Countach wing stuck on the car and more like a fitted piece, which it was by Kirk Evans.
quote:
Originally posted by JTpantera:
and it they seem to be fading in popularity as their was only one at the Fun Rally. Ironically, it was on my car and it is the Amerisport version. It is my preferred model of the delta wings because it is thinner and is molded to flow with the Pantera's lines. The outside ends are angled down to match the roll of the decklid into the body. As a result it looks less like a Countach wing stuck on the car and more like a fitted piece, which it was by Kirk Evans.



I believe that there were two others there as well. Ed Nagle's and the black GT5-S also had one. Not that I like them. I am not a fan of any of them especially the " turbo" wing that seemed to be SO popular this year.

Ron
Does anyone make a ducktail wing?

I may just fab something up, I love the race look, so riveted on aluminum ducktail isn't out of the question, but if there was one available I'd love to see it.

I'm also attracted to GT style wings. I think a full GT wing on a Pantera would look sweet.

I like the wing that Mark Charleton has.
I have the Amerispost GSX Low Profile wing. Very low subtle and just as Kirk designed and follows the body lines (and deck lid rib) perfect. Many people don't notice it and think it is completely stock. The 3rd brake light is a nice safety feature and is quite hidden on a red car. Not sure if would look quite as clean on a car of a different color.

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  • rear
Very Nice! I like that wing a lot. I like your wheels too. I'm rockin the same ones.

A full GT wing IMO probably is harder to get the right look on a non-flared car.

The wing you have works VERY well with your non-flared car. My car also has no flares, I may seriously look into getting that wing.
Here is a link to Alex's Flickr page when they were mocking up his blue Group IV car. He also has a beautiful red GT5-S.

Roughed in "Duck Tail" on Alex's Pantera #5555

I also believe there is a specific thread on his blue Group IV car #5555 on this forum with more information on how they built the duck tail and all the other mods they did.

I tried to attached a photo of the rough duck tail in primer but I am having trouble getting my IPad to resize the photo to meet forum requirements. BTW - The finished product is very nice (sorry didn't have time to search one out).

Hope this helps.

Devin
To address (sort of) as to whether a sugar-scoop or Boxer-slat will make a delta wing work better or worse on a Pantera, the question has been asked before and to my knowledge, no back-to-back tests or wind-tunnel runs ever were done. The Boxer-slat was as a result of one of Ferrari's rare public mistakes. The carbureted Boxer's air intakes were at the extreme rear of the decklid (designed very much like the earlier Pantera decklid), and the under-car airflow raised the air going over the sugar-scoop decklid enough that the big V-12 went lean over about 160 mph. Adding a slat over the front of the decklid bent the total airflow down enough that the carbs got air at all speeds attainable. I note that with all this, even racing (alleggarrita) versions of the Ferrari Boxer did not run a wing or a tail spoiler with it.

It certainly seems that at higher speeds, the rear swirl over & behind a Pantera will be bent down with a Boxer-slat, possibly making a wing or a blade-spoiler more effective. Exactly HOW much more effective, and at what speeds, is still an open question until someone tries it and publishes their results.

A few years ago, Bob Bensen tried an air/oil cooler mounted half-way up the stanchions holding his high-mounted wing, and found that the cooler was completely useless as mounted. At the time I suggested trying a Boxer slat, but he decided to change to a smaller, lighter & more effective water-to-oil cooler. That certainly would have answered the question, if done.
I'm still looking at different wings.

I do like the Countach wing, but my car is flareless, so I want something a little more sedate.

Now mind you, my car has huge 335 wide rear tires, and basically slicks, and sits low, so it can handle a wing and still look non-poser, but it has to be the right wing before I drill any holes in my car.
Which do you think is actually more effective at, say, 100-140mph, a Countach style wing, or a ducktaail wing like I've seen on some race car vids?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EXQPlPgYxU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUjehWztZTE

I quite like the look of the ducktail wings/spoilers. More easily fabricated, I'm thinking of adding one to my car, along with some side window air scoops, 5" tall velacity stacks, painting/wrapping th front decklid flat black, give the car a different, motre personal look. Plus, I plan to do track days, but I won't be going over 120-130 at the fastest.
quote:
Originally posted by mike the snake:
Which do you think is actually more effective at, say, 100-140mph, a Countach style wing, or a ducktaail wing like I've seen on some race car vids?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EXQPlPgYxU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUjehWztZTE

I quite like the look of the ducktail wings/spoilers. More easily fabricated, I'm thinking of adding one to my car, along with some side window air scoops, 5" tall velacity stacks, painting/wrapping th front decklid flat black, give the car a different, motre personal look. Plus, I plan to do track days, but I won't be going over 120-130 at the fastest.


I'm pretty sure that on a race car the wing would be too much in the way to deal with considering the the deck usually needs to come off to work on the engine.

I don't think the location of the ducktail and the size of it are arbitrary?

They both provide down force but in doing so create some drag.

The results probably are similar but if I was seriously going racing the ducktail is probably what would happen.

Both the Ford GT40 and the Cobra "Daytonna" Coupes used the ducktail.

In those days the race team would just take a pair of "tin snips" and trim some of the tail down if the driver thought there was too much downforce.

I can't recall the Detomaso Gp4 cars with a spoiler anywhere on the car but it is not unfair to say now that the car could have used more race development?


What I do know about the Pantera aerodynamics is that the nose gets light at speeds somewhere about 150mph. That's where the little GTS chin spoiler was required.


Spoilers in the rear extert downforce in the rear for extra traction.

Downforce numbers that I have seen on many rear spoilers put that number in the 50 to 70 pound vicinity.

I do not know what additional drag they caused?


I do remember a magazine article about the Countach with the wing, the Lamborghini test driver said that the wing held back the top speed of the car.

As I recall it was something like 203 mph without the wing and 198 with the wing.
Last edited by panteradoug
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mike the snake:
Which do you think is actually more effective at, say, 100-140mph, a Countach style wing, or a ducktaail wing like I've seen on some race car vids?


I do remember a magazine article about the Countach with the wing, the Lamborghini test driver said that the wing held back the top speed of the car.

As I recall it was something like 203 mph without the wing and 198 with the wing.


Lamborghini made some pretty radical, unsubstantiated claims when it came to top speeds of their cars back in the day.

The reality is the Euro Spec Countach 5000s topped out at 150 with the rear spoiler and 160 without. Click for 5000S Road test

The fastest Countach of all, the 1988 25th anniversary edition, which had a much revised, more aerodynamic body than the previous editions and NO rear spoiler did a verified 183 mph.

The very first production road car to hit 200 MPH wasn't until 1987 when Ferrari rolled out the F40.
quote:
Originally posted by Marlin Jack:
...Piano Hinges, Heim Joints, A Piece of Plexiglass, Holes Drilled in the Decklid.

NO COMMENT!



If you look closely, there are no additional holes drilled in the decklid. The car had an ugly delta wing on it before and the holes for the supports were already there. He simply repurposed them. I like it . I think that with a bit of shaping ,it would look really cool.
Ron
I would go with the Delta Wing. If you can't find one, go with the Marlin Wing.

Since these are largely for decoration and you intend to show the car, the combination of the Delta Wing and the Pantera rear deck make just the right combination to do tail gate parties with.

You can separate the Hibachi from the cold drinks. Just make sure you put screens over the stacks so people don't drop objects into them.
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I would go with the Delta Wing. If you can't find one, go with the Marlin Wing.

Since these are largely for decoration and you intend to show the car, the combination of the Delta Wing and the Pantera rear deck make just the right combination to do tail gate parties with.

You can separate the Hibachi from the cold drinks. Just make sure you put screens over the stacks so people don't drop objects into them.

...You Forgot about the Young Girl who Loves to lay out on My Wing, Naked, and Sunbathe All Day!! Now, Who's Laughin'?

Marlin
Last edited by marlinjack
quote:
Which do you think would be more effective, a Countach wing, or a ducktail spoiler like in the pics

Definitely the ducktail! The Countach wing will merely add drag. Then again, if you can find some nubile young ladies who want to sunbathe on a delta wing like Marlin's, then it's a no-brainer, go with the delta wing. But if you want to go faster, go ducktail.
quote:
Originally posted by Marlin Jack:
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I would go with the Delta Wing. If you can't find one, go with the Marlin Wing.

Since these are largely for decoration and you intend to show the car, the combination of the Delta Wing and the Pantera rear deck make just the right combination to do tail gate parties with.

You can separate the Hibachi from the cold drinks. Just make sure you put screens over the stacks so people don't drop objects into them.

...You Forgot about the Young Girl who Loves to lay out on My Wing, Naked, and Sun-Bath All Day!! Now, Who's Laughin'?

Marlin


Pictures
quote:
Originally posted by r mccall:
quote:
Originally posted by Marlin Jack:
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I would go with the Delta Wing. If you can't find one, go with the Marlin Wing.

Since these are largely for decoration and you intend to show the car, the combination of the Delta Wing and the Pantera rear deck make just the right combination to do tail gate parties with.

You can separate the Hibachi from the cold drinks. Just make sure you put screens over the stacks so people don't drop objects into them.

...You Forgot about the Young Girl who Loves to lay out on My Wing, Naked, and Sun-Bath All Day!! Now, Who's Laughin'?

Marlin


Pictures


You know? I often think I see things looking down the road into those heat waves coming off of the pavement at dusk?

Does that count as a mirage? Eeker
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
quote:
Originally posted by MarsRed:
Yeah right! I agree with PanteraDoug, pics are required.

So Marlin, I DOUBLE DOG DARE YOU.

(I see another thread in our future: "Naked Chicks Laying On Delta Wings", or something...)


Is that like "double secret probation"? Eeker


You've never heard of a double dog dare??? Where'd you grow up? There's even a triple dog dare:
http://www.urbandictionary.com...term=Double+Dog+Dare
http://www.urbandictionary.com...term=triple-dog-dare

Serious stuff indeed.
quote:
Originally posted by JFB #05177:
Has any one every tried this software.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plWCsiwgF5U


Here's what I am thinking. I have slats on my car that are essentially just strips of 5.5" wide .060 aluminum sheet.

Some like 'em, some don't. Ok, fine. To each his own.

They happen to work well in conjunction with the Weber carbs in sheltering them from the elements.



It occured to me, because of this discussion about rear wings, and obviously there is an affect of the angle of the ducktail on downforce, that if each of these slats had say 1" extension on them and was angled as a wing, it would provide downforce to the rear?

It is going to be easy enough to find a picture of one of the Pantera race cars with the ducktail on it and put a protractor on it and get probably close enough on an angle?

Now every one of these sets of slats costs me about $200. Then I need to match them to the mounting holes to the aluminum skeleton, then send them all out for powder coat. Another $350.

So every time these whims strike me, it's about $600 or $700 and about three weeks worth of effort.


That formula I don't know where to start with. Wanna calculate something with it according to what I just described? Please do?

I want to take a slat and put it in the break and see what it looks like on the car anyway? I might nix it right there that it looks ridiculous BUT I have a sneaking suspicion that it might not be bad?

Certainly would freak out all these Ferrari and Lambo freaks?


The initial thought I have on it though is that if you look at this picture of the slats, they curve a little.

The higher up towards the roof they are, the more they curve. As you come down to the flat surface of the rear deck, they are virtually flat.

That is very subtle and most would never notice that.

Putting a 1" wing on each one would stiffen each slat and probably will eliminate the possibility of the curve and just generally screw up the entire concept.

However, that was my thought of the day.


I get the first cup out of the coffee maker and with regular grind that's a lot of caffeine?

The second cup is kicking in? The little ducktails don't have to go all across the slats, just maybe 20 to 24" down the center? Hum?

Great. Now I'm getting a migraine. Ok, enough thought for today? It hurts.


What happens if the air strums them like guitar strings, how do I tune the sound? Oh geeze...make it stop?

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  • Pantera_Slats
Good thought about converting deck louvers to a sort-of rear spoiler. Look at some of the old photos of Panteras running at Muroc dry lake or Bonneville and check out how the airflow as defined by the dust trail separates at the leading edge of the sugar-scoop. Most of it seems to arch far above the deck which is part of the problem with rear spoilers on a Pantera (or similar car). Maybe with the louvers the separation wouldn't happen as soon. Too bad my proposed wind tunnel tests in the '90s at the A-1 tunnel in N Carolina never happened.
quote:
Originally posted by Bosswrench:
Good thought about converting deck louvers to a sort-of rear spoiler. Look at some of the old photos of Panteras running at Muroc dry lake or Bonneville and check out how the airflow as defined by the dust trail separates at the leading edge of the sugar-scoop. Most of it seems to arch far above the deck which is part of the problem with rear spoilers on a Pantera (or similar car). Maybe with the louvers the separation wouldn't happen as soon. Too bad my proposed wind tunnel tests in the '90s at the A-1 tunnel in N Carolina never happened.


In leu of some kind of scientific data for air flow over the car, I'm left with extrapolation?

Well, at least it will look like I knew something and I can just see people stopping dead in their tracks and staring at them and needing to touch them?

I wish I knew where the air stream was on the car?


I remember the pictures of the "tuft" tests that Shelby did at Willow springs on some of the comp cars.

Problem is it's a big circus with a lot of people involve, a photographer hanging out the window of the chase car AT SPEED...ah what the heck, how much is a new photographer anyway. Probably can get a college student to do it as an intern right?

Oh...almost forgot...I need a test track too. Pocono isn't too far?


I'm going to have to presume surface areas are directly proportional to downforce and estimate what the surface area of the ducktails are on the current comp cars I can find?

I would think the sugar scoop adds some lift?


I know these things are going to play a tune at speed? I'm wondering if I should vary the length of them into a triangular form with the shortest at the top.

At least each one will be at a different frequency?


Yikes. At least I won't be bored for a few days? Roll Eyes



Got some of those pictures Jack? I did a google search and only a couple of the "publicity" pics come up. Nothing with any evidence remaining?

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