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Hello
I've been surfing this forum many times and got very usefull informations … but it's time to make a decision.

I'd like to build a reliable race engine (I mean that I don't want to put the hands inside every week)

I have :
-351C engine with 4V quench heads
-Holley Dominator intake
-MSD ignition dizzy (pointless)(recurved by Brent Lykins
-Aviaid race oil tank

I'm ready to buy
-180° headers
-Quickfuel mechanical carb (cfm ?)
-camshaft

let's say 400 HP + (?)

what about pushrods, lifters, water pump.

Thanks to all
kind regards
Philippe
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Those are "Crane" roller rockers, exultant start, i like the cam "72 GTS recommended, push rods, Moroso , the cam kit will include the springs, I would recommend switching over to a aluminum head, their are now a number of after market choices, Air flow research are the best.Edelbrock makes a great water pump. buy a stud girdle, 750 C.F.M. carb, high rise intake, = 500+ h.p.
quote:
Originally posted by "72 GTS:
I went to my workshop to have a look :

here's the valve train, I don't know if we can identify valves and springs but the engine was sold and supposed to be prepared for intensive use ...
Maybe can I avoid to tear down heads ...


They look like triple springs with chrome molly retainers. I see guide plates for the push rods which means they need to be hardened push rods. Of course there are roller bearing aluminum rocker arms. It would appear the pedestals have been cut for screw in rocker arm studs. That's what you know.

You do not know the size of the valves, the condition and type of valve guides, the condition and type of valve stem seals. You do not know what was done as far as the valve seats and the port entry. Those you all need to know specifically. You would only need to remove one head, then disassemble one intake valve and one exhaust valve to see what was done.

4v Cleveland heads typically only need a good three angle valve job to show flow numbers around 300 cfm at .600" lift. The exhausts need some port work on the exit because of the bad angle.

You need to know how much lift the springs you have will allow before coil bind, and how much pressure they provide closed and at full lift.

If you have that equipment to disassemble then you can certainly do it in your own "shop". It isn't difficult.

You are going to get different opinions on what the port shape should look like under the valves. Stock, the head had in essence a restrictor ring cast into it. What that did was reduce the size of the port immediately under the valve and increase the velocity of the intake charge, thereby increasing throttle "feel" at low engine rpm.

Ford's "Off Highway Modification" booklet for the Boss 302, showed a cross section diagram of the ports with the suggested modification to the port for racing. Some don't like it and say that Ford racing didn't know what they were talking about.

They, Ford, are a lot smarter than I am and certainly that information comes from their racing experience. I've attached a scan of it here.

It wouldn't be a bad idea either to cc the combustion chambers, the intake and exhaust ports so you know exactly what you are dealing with. One of the things you need to do to "blue print" the heads is to attempt to equalize these so that the engine produces as closely as it can, the same amount of power per cylinder.

Attachments

Images (1)
  • Boss_302_Head_Rework_Cropped
I had a set of quench heads years ago, they were filled to reduce the port size, they were a laborious job, but, they made big horse power over 500 in a race set up, what is your octane ratting, the compression will determine H.P. in a big way, 10 to 1 over here with steel heads and 91 octane.
quote:
Originally posted by "72 GTS:
Thanks Chris

I don't want to change the heads at this point, plus they aren't alloy heads here in France, Shipping costs and (huge) taxes will be prohibitive ...
regards
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
They look like triple springs with chrome molly retainers. I see guide plates for the push rods which means they need to be hardened push rods. Of course there are roller bearing aluminum rocker arms. It would appear the pedestals have been cut for screw in rocker arm studs. That's what you know.

You do not know the size of the valves, the condition and type of valve guides, the condition and type of valve stem seals. You do not know what was done as far as the valve seats and the port entry. Those you all need to know specifically. You would only need to remove one head, then disassemble one intake valve and one exhaust valve to see what was done.

4v Cleveland heads typically only need a good three angle valve job to show flow numbers around 300 cfm at .600" lift. The exhausts need some port work on the exit because of the bad angle.

You need to know how much lift the springs you have will allow before coil bind, and how much pressure they provide closed and at full lift.

If you have that equipment to disassemble then you can certainly do it in your own "shop". It isn't difficult.

You are going to get different opinions on what the port shape should look like under the valves. Stock, the head had in essence a restrictor ring cast into it. What that did was reduce the size of the port immediately under the valve and increase the velocity of the intake charge, thereby increasing throttle "feel" at low engine rpm.

Ford's "Off Highway Modification" booklet for the Boss 302, showed a cross section diagram of the ports with the suggested modification to the port for racing. Some don't like it and say that Ford racing didn't know what they were talking about.

They, Ford, are a lot smarter than I am and certainly that information comes from their racing experience. I've attached a scan of it here.

It wouldn't be a bad idea either to cc the combustion chambers, the intake and exhaust ports so you know exactly what you are dealing with. One of the things you need to do to "blue print" the heads is to attempt to equalize these so that the engine produces as closely as it can, the same amount of power per cylinder.


Right, yes I would be able to do that ...
the intake valves are around 2.15inches, exhaust 1.8inches according to the papers that came with the engine ...
By the way, the cam that is already installed is a radical F-260/3694-6 Crane, the engine is running ...
What PanterChris is suggesting in closing down the ports is very doable. It gets done with "plastic aluminum" or "plastic iron" Devcon epoxy.

You need to install studs in the ports to anchor the epoxy to the heads. Assuming that you would feel comfortable with the durability of that modification, first you need to know what the volume of your existing ports are.

You might want to consider a proven intake manifold first before you go through the expense and risk of durability first. Something like a Holley Track Dominator intake manifold MIGHT put you in that direction. It would be a compromise and likely not give you as much power as the smaller ports but you would not have to worry about the epoxy coming loose and the engine swallowing it?

You are going to have to make your own determination what camshaft you should use. It was my understanding that the cams that GP recommended were "street" cams? Of course you can race with any cam that you want. There is no requirement one way or the other, but if you are racing it really doesn't matter much how well the engine idles.

As far as carbs go, it's likely to be only a couple, either a Holley 4779 750 dp or a 4781 850 cfm dp or variants of them? I'd say on the track I suspect you might like the 850 better? Smaller carbs are mostly used by circle track racers who want more "response" coming out of the corners.

It's hard to tell you exactly since some of it is just how you like the feel of the throttle with different carbs AND cams. What you have is just a race cam. After all, it was built as a race engine. Kinda hard to drive that on the street and with a 7,000 rpm red line, it maybe be too much for the car. You have to try it. Race engines need to be tuned and getting the right camshaft is part of that.

If you got the right one first time out, that would be so surprising it would be actually shocking.

http://www.summitracing.com/pa...crn-361421/overview/
Wow! The car was "Swiss cheese"?

I have no experience with that recommended carburetor, a little with Carters, a bunch with Holleys, an addiction to Webers.

That's the manifold I meant, yes.

If you do the heads with epoxy, you have to do the intake to match it.

It would probably be cheaper to buy a set of existing Ford "high port" aluminum heads already done. Then you are into probably 625-650hp? Even considering the import expenses and taxes. Declare them as used auto parts. that will help some usually.

Even 550hp now is not enough to run even in the middle of the pack in vintage racing. You need around 600 if not more.

You have to see it to believe it. I have seen it. Shocking really...oh and 8,500 rpm downshifts! These guys are very serious and if you can't run with them you had better know how to get out of their way. I'm happy with a very fast street car. I can handle that.
Closing down the intake ports on the Boss 302 head with epoxy was done by the Shelby Racing team in 1969.
The head work was done by the Valley Head Service.
I have the article around somewhere but at the moment can't find it.
I am told now by a very knowledgeable source that was there at ground zero then, it was considered an experiment.
The car was run in one or two races with the closed down ports and was then returned to the large port configuration.

I have a pair of the Ford Motorsport A3 heads. They are not out of the box stock and came off a race prepared "circle track" race car.
The owner was switching over to the C302B heads for greater throttle response.

The ports are untouched, there is pocket work that resembles the suggested pocket work in the scan that I posted, and the heads were shaved.
For me, these things are what you want in a race Cleveland. I have seen many sets of "professionally ported" C302 heads(translate that into big bucks spent on the "bench") and I find it ironic that in many cases the finished port comes out looking very, very much like the stock A3 port does?


The Shelby Race heads from way back, ironically resemble these things too.


I do recall Don Nicholson, aka Dyno Don, being asked about these aluminum heads (the series of them, i.e., the A3, B351, C302, etc) and from memory his comment was "I was making substantially more horse power with the iron 4v heads than I can we these aluminum heads". That is a paraphrasing from memory.

I can't go back and ask Don since he passed away about 12 years ago or so? The point is, the 4v iron heads are not junk and you CAN make significant power with them.


I do believe that he is credited with the modification to the exhaust port of cutting out the entire section of the head and bolting in an "extension" that is made out of aluminum bar stock.

If you look at them, they go up like the aluminum Motorsport heads do. I think that George has a nice picture of a set of them in his 351c documentation section on his Facebook page.

The reason that I mention this at all is that I do believe that at least the first Gp4 factory car used that set up on the engine.

Unfortunately those engines were the first of the 351c engines road raced and needed race development. As a result there were a lot of engine failures early on and the Pantera developed an early reputation in the European race circles as being undependable under race conditions.

If you are going to be serious about racing this engine then the selection of the head you are going to use should be considered for the location of a better exhaust port than cast stock. Ultimately in that head, that is the restricting component.


As far as what size primary tubes and collector lengths to use on the headers, as well as primary tube lengths, I think that you are going to find a smaller tube works better on a shorter track and a larger tube on the longer. The lengths of the primaries with 180s might just be academic discussion simply because it is so difficult to get equal lengths on a set like this. Probably the average length you are going to be able to get is about 34". That's about what the average length is of mine and in looking at them, it's difficult to see where they could be made more equally. It actually shouldn't be the length of the tube you are trying to equalize necessarily, it is the volume in the tube. Try "cc'ing" headers. If it isn't a nightmare, it's probably the closest thing you could get to one?

I suppose this all depends on how much you can invest in the headers? You could get Halls, like I have for $850 or you could have someone build you a set for $3500? That's your call and is why race teams with seemingly unlimited budgets tend to be more consistently competitive? The expression with financing race cars is that you need "cubic dollars". Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
What PanterChris is suggesting in closing down the ports is very doable. It gets done with "plastic aluminum" or "plastic iron" Devcon epoxy.

You need to install studs in the ports to anchor the epoxy to the heads. Assuming that you would feel comfortable with the durability of that modification, first you need to know what the volume of your existing ports are.

You might want to consider a proven intake manifold first before you go through the expense and risk of durability first. Something like a Holley Track Dominator intake manifold MIGHT put you in that direction. It would be a compromise and likely not give you as much power as the smaller ports but you would not have to worry about the epoxy coming loose and the engine swallowing it?

You are going to have to make your own determination what camshaft you should use. It was my understanding that the cams that GP recommended were "street" cams? Of course you can race with any cam that you want. There is no requirement one way or the other, but if you are racing it really doesn't matter much how well the engine idles.

As far as carbs go, it's likely to be only a couple, either a Holley 4779 750 dp or a 4781 850 cfm dp or variants of them? I'd say on the track I suspect you might like the 850 better? Smaller carbs are mostly used by circle track racers who want more "response" coming out of the corners.

It's hard to tell you exactly since some of it is just how you like the feel of the throttle with different carbs AND cams. What you have is just a race cam. After all, it was built as a race engine. Kinda hard to drive that on the street and with a 7,000 rpm red line, it maybe be too much for the car. You have to try it. Race engines need to be tuned and getting the right camshaft is part of that.

If you got the right one first time out, that would be so surprising it would be actually shocking.

http://www.summitracing.com/pa...crn-361421/overview/

Doug
Is There a picture out there of this port reduction ?
Thanks
GP may have a picture on his 351c documentation page. He's good with that.
Mine is going to be a scan of a magazine article from 1970.
It is the Shelby Team modification, albeit a temporary one, and there are probably much better and clearer pictures around.
Let's ask George, how about it 'Big Guy'? Got some pics of the epoxied down ports? Smiler
I like Doug's cam suggestion, the problem with getting to your horse power goals is your heads, the original 4V heads were designed for foot to the floor NASCAR applications,Ford offered in limited numbers the C-302 A and B heads for racers, they required a complete custom machine overhaul but could be refined by the racer for their application,, but , after their "ban by NASCAR" the engine was abandoned by Ford and for years ignored by the aftermarket, this is why the massaging of the stock heads was the only way to go. The good news is you can reach the 500+ numbers but you will have to acquire great heads, contact Mike Drew he may be able to help on importing the parts you need.If you want to go fast = money.Below is a top secret C302-B head worked up for 600+ horse power..
quote:
Originally posted by "72 GTS:
Hello
I've been surfing this forum many times and got very usefull informations … but it's time to make a decision.

I'd like to build a reliable race engine (I mean that I don't want to put the hands inside every week)

I have :
-351C engine with 4V quench heads
-Holley Dominator intake
-MSD ignition dizzy (pointless)(recurved by Brent Lykins
-Aviaid race oil tank

I'm ready to buy
-180° headers
-Quickfuel mechanical carb (cfm ?)
-camshaft

let's say 400 HP + (?)

what about pushrods, lifters, water pump.

Thanks to all
kind regards
Philippe

Attachments

Images (1)
  • 100_0862
quote:
Originally posted by pantera chris:
That's what I meant to say but my shrinking bank account boggled my mind.
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by pantera chris:
If you want to go fast = money.[QUOTE]

The remark generally spoken here is "how fast you can go is determined by how much money you have to spend". Frowner


I know. It's depressing. Everyone is charging more and I am making less. What's wrong with that equation?
quote:
Originally posted by "72 GTS:
Thanks to all
But i have to run stocks heads to be FIA legal,
Even if some guys run 7Liters engines and claim to be within the rules Wink


The engines here can be tested for cylinder volume with a gauge that gets installed to the spark plug hole in the head.

7 litres in that engine is going to have issues with high speed (rpm) durability. Your 5.7, to a much lesser degree, if at all.

You don't even need a steel crankshaft. The steel is used more in a race engine to reduce the amount of bearing embedment into the crank journals. It is harder and will take less rebuilds than the iron crank will because of that, but the iron dampens vibration in the engine better.

A steel crank in a Cleveland will crack the block eventually through the main webs. Usually on the thrust bearing bulkhead.

The best way to build a Cleveland is to use the iron crank and have it Tuftrided. The process hardends the bearing surfaces but the crank retains it's flexibility.

The only issue with it that I am aware of is that you need a crank press to straighten the crank after it gets done. That machine is in short supply. Usually has to get sent out to have that done to one of the few shops that has the press.
quote:

Originally posted by "72 GTS:

... I already have one Holley Strip Dominator intake (high single plane) ... I guess that the port reduction is a professionnal job, I won't be able to do that ...



Philippe,

Do not stuff the intake ports (port reduction) of the iron 4V heads in conjunction with the Holley Strip Dominator intake manifold, that manifold is designed for a full size port.

The port works good as is, and the best names in Motorsports had a hard time figuring out how to make it better. The guys who filled the port back in the heyday of iron head 4V pro-racing were doing so not to increase velocity, but to eliminate the irregular shape of the port, because at the engine speeds they were racing at (above 8000 rpm) the irregular shape caused the fuel to fall out of suspension, it was wetting out on the walls of the port.

Stuffing the intake port will decrease air flow by at least 15 cfm at 0.600" valve lift, and by at least 25 cfm at 0.700" valve lift. So if you stuff the port, the port needs to be reworked to regain the air flow. The velocity increase attained by stuffing the port inlet is minimal, port volume is only decreased by about 15cc ... and even less once the port is reworked. My advice is to get to know the port, understand how it works and do the math to know the various operating parameters (average velocity, peak velocity), before making a decision to modify it. The more you know about the port, the better you'll understand how well it was designed to begin with, that I guarantee.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

... I have no experience with that recommended carburetor ...



Doug the Quick Fuel carbs (aka QFT) are Holley clones, with features like fuel bowl windows, replaceable air bleeds, etc, that Holley owners can only wish they had ... or that they pay a bunch of money to have installed. The double pumper versions are available with annular booster venturis. They are generally considered to be a better out-of-the-box carburetor than those manufactured by Holley.
posted December 01, 2014 05:11 PM Hide Post

quote:

.


Philippe,
The best advise is learn from the best, George is to modest so let me say, the best book on modifying your engine is " FORD 351 Cleveland Engines" This book will help you to pick the right components and in the short run save you $$$, knowledge is power!
quote:
Originally posted by George P:
quote:

Originally posted by "72 GTS:

... I already have one Holley Strip Dominator intake (high single plane) ... I guess that the port reduction is a professionnal job, I won't be able to do that ...



Philippe,

Do not stuff the intake ports (port reduction) of the iron 4V heads in conjunction with the Holley Strip Dominator intake manifold, that manifold is designed for a full size port.

The port works good as is, and the best names in Motorsports had a hard time figuring out how to make it better. The guys who filled the port back in the heyday of iron head 4V pro-racing were doing so not to increase velocity, but to eliminate the irregular shape of the port, because at the engine speeds they were racing at (above 8000 rpm) the irregular shape caused the fuel to fall out of suspension, it was wetting out on the walls of the port.

Stuffing the intake port will decrease air flow by at least 15 cfm at 0.600" valve lift, and by at least 25 cfm at 0.700" valve lift. So if you stuff the port, the port needs to be reworked to regain the air flow. The velocity increase attained by stuffing the port inlet is minimal, port volume is only decreased by about 15cc ... and even less once the port is reworked. My advice is to get to know the port, understand how it works and do the math to know the various operating parameters (average velocity, peak velocity), before making a decision to modify it. The more you know about the port, the better you'll understand how well it was designed to begin with, that I guarantee.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

... I have no experience with that recommended carburetor ...



Doug the Quick Fuel carbs (aka QFT) are Holley clones, with features like fuel bowl windows, replaceable air bleeds, etc, that Holley owners can only wish they had ... or that they pay a bunch of money to have installed. The double pumper versions are available with annular booster venturis. They are generally considered to be a better out-of-the-box carburetor than those manufactured by Holley.

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