Reply to ""AGROVADR" SOLD !!!!!!"

I have enjoyed reading the spirited comments on this topic. I believe Mr. Hill is speaking in good faith on the originality/concours issue. I have no problem when an enthusiast takes a strong stand that favors a strict construction of the term "Concours." Indeed, when the Newporter Concours was a happening event in the seventies and eighties, I was fortunate to have been on the organization committee for the show and also to edit the event program several years. I attended a meeting of the head judges at one Newporter when they laid out the ground rules for judging. The judges were very respected authorities at that time, with specialists responsible for each marque. Essentially, the judges were instructed that a car that had rolled off the assembly line, been boxed up and then delivered to the display area without any modifications would be totally concours and should not have any points taken away from a theoretical 100 points. This above described, original/concours car would score higher than a competitor's car, even if the competitor's car had been treated to a ground up restoration with a 25K paint job, etc. It simply boiled down to the fact that the factory, unmodified car fit the "black letter" definition of "concours". It didn't matter if a fully restored car had more eye appeal or not. Surprisingly, not many cars were presented at concours that had been preserved without any changes. The vast majority of cars had received extensive and costly upgrading with some being true to original and others being modified. It just seemed that most owners, even back in the early days were modifying their cars. In 1974 or 1975, I participated in a concours at Ports O' Call Village in San Pedro, California that was won quite handily by Mr. Dyer's exquisite black Pantera. It was the first time I had seen chrome, powder-painted black, smoothed and finished engine bay and a very high-end Junior's House of Color paint, etc. Most cars at that time were bone stock, like mine, that I had recently purchased from an LM dealer. I think my car was judged third, third from the worst in the show! Thus, even almost 30 years ago, a formal judging committee was leaning towards modified cars. Other stand-out show winners in subsequent Newporters included "Impulse", the Jim Kilpatrick, twin-turbo car that won Best of Show honors at this major event. I am sure there are more, but my point is, dead-stock cars did not capture the judge's hearts as much as the modified, "peacocks". Mr. Hill reflects on the 2003 Concorso Italiano show where Patrick Holleran's extensively modified Pantera won Best of Marque honors as well as best paint, etc. Percy is critical that a very stock or original car was overlooked by the judges. The judges actually were voting owners of Panteras, not people's choice/beauty contest voters. Real owners. The ballot permitted the voting owners to categorize the cars as to either concours/original, modified or wash 'n wax. The votes were tallied and the highest vote getter in the classes earned their trophies. The Holleran car garnered the majority of votes. No formal judging committee was employed by PI at this event. Formal judging can lead to big problems if you are staging a "fun event" like the Concorso White Glove, in our opinion. Owners can get very upset if the judges overlook their car and arguments and hard feelings can ensue when one owner insists that such and such part is original when a judge disagrees. We have seen trophies thrown away in disgust but an owner who feels his car was slighted. Indeed, a finger of suspicion is even pointed at Mr. Hill over his car, as motivating him in decrying the Agrovador's recent trophy run. Several outstanding cars won top honors in the Concours class that were very original, but the votes cast were nominal compared to the Holleran Pantera. My experience in sales of Panteras taught me years ago that dead stock cars are less in demand than high quality, modified cars. I also know from my own research that the DeTomaso factory itself built to customer's orders modified cars from day one! I have one photo of a Pantera with a strange after-market wing, front spoiler, scoops and wheels! The bottom line from PI's perspective is that there is room at the top for all of us to enjoy and appreciate stock and modified cars. Because Panteras are driven and used by most owners, it is typical to find all types of modifications that enhance performance and reliability. Likewise, a bone-stock car is of great interest to us as well because it permits us to appreciate the pure beauty and functionality of the original article. We have invited Mr. Hill to assist us in a constructive manner at next year's Concorso DeTomaso display because we feel his voice should be heard, although not controlling. As matters stand now, PI intends to keep recognizing the three classes we have in the past: Concours (original), Modified and Wash 'n wax. We do not favor formal judging at our event as Percy seeks, however, Mr. Hill has written an editorial on this topic that will be published in the Winter 2003 issue of PI and we will gauge the reaction of members to Mr. Hill's comments. We have also made a greater attempt to feature stock cars in our publication. As for Percy's comments on the Pavesi Pantera of Mr. Roland Jackel, there was no intent to mislead readers on his part or PI's. Comments from member's are always invited to clarify or amplify on a feature. We are an information exchange and from time to time, an article we publish may require further clarification. There is no sinister intent on anybody's part. We just want to have fun and hope people don't take all of this too seriously! Best wishes for the New Year. Paige, Linda & Dave Adler, Pantera International

[This message has been edited by Admin5 (edited 01-02-2004).]