quote:Originally posted by Richard S:
Like David i am also confused about the available heads today. I am spoiled with the low end tork my 351 windsor has, i would like the same for the Pantera. The more i read the 2v gives th best low end and the 3v is in the middle with the 4v strictly for high end. Does anyone have a good recipe for a stock or even stroked cleveland that will produce around 500hp and 480 torque?
Yes. The Ford Motorsport heads are a great street or track combination.
My preference is for the A3 on a 357 because I like the top end. The stuffed lower portion adds crispness to the bottom end. These really are the ones that work the best on a stroker Cleveland for sure.
Many will tell you that the C302 head is the one to use. That may be so BUT the ones that really kick ass are the ones that have been fully race ported. Ironically when you look at the finished port, they wind up usually resembling something around or in between the A3 or a worked B351 head. They can be as tall as a 4v iron head but narrower.
I have also seen a couple of sets ported that resemble a A3 stock port.
Dan Jones seems to have a preference to the A3 as well. It needs very little attention new out of the box (if you could find a set of those).
Dan Jones will tell you that the performance of the three vary with the porter. Theoretically though out of the box, the C3 is too small for a 351 (great for a Boss 302 though and out of the box the port is very similar to a 351w iron head), the B351 is about right (needing minor cleanup under the valves), and the A3 is still a little too big UNLESS you use what we used to refer as a street/track cam grind.
I tried a set of B351's on my 357 and found them to be restrictive, so I would say best dyno results do not make the most fun engine at all. In fact they seem to conflict with the actual resulting engine.
I think the phrase, "you can't drive a dyno" applies often.
The favorites of many now are the CHI 3v heads. However the CHI heads that really work well have been ported also and again start to resemble ports that are in the B351 and A3 head port dimensions.
The Edelebrock heads are not the way to go OUT OF THE BOX if you ask me.
I also think that there is no way a 351w performs with a 351c. As Grandpa Pence states, the dog 351c's are the low compression, station wagon cammed versions.
It all depends on how you drive your Pantera as well. If you just want to bop around town looking cool with your designer sunglasses and Gucci loafers on just about anything will run fine. In most if not all cases everyone is referring to gains from 5,000 to 8,000 rpms with these head, cam, header, induction systems.
Your 351w will be all done by 5,000rpm. Even so, you are still doing 120 in 5th gear at that. Most people aren't even going to have the opportunity or driving skills necessary to use the capabilities of what these combinations will produce.
A canted valve Cleveland head engine will always make more power then the Windsor head. Probably around 50hp more.
Look at the numbers on the ported 2v iron heads. first off, they are done by .500" lift. You really aren't going to be able to make 500hp with them. They will make a really nice strong 400hp combination though.
400hp is nothing to laugh at. That's a healthy engine but the aluminum heads give you at least 70 more and maybe as much as 150 more with the correct combination of cam and exhaust.
You are limited though with stock type headers in a Pantera. They are too short to make really good power.
This is all mostly building an "ultimate Cleveland" engine and as such to run with "Mad Dog" and frankly even though I can, I won't because in plain English (with all due respect Dennis) he's nuts, but it's nice to know that (theoretically), you can.
Also as GP states, the 4v iron head can work very well with the right combinations, flowing numbers on the bench of around 330cfm, but be aware that those tend to be "Trans-Am" type engines with big camshafts, i.e./ valve lifts over .600" and real duration's around 250@ .050. I like that but admittedly with the exhausts available the car WILL sound like a 5.7 liter loosly muffled Harley.
I'm ok with that but there are those that have noticed I have anti-social tendencies and some have mumbled things about the Anti-Christ. I don't know why they look at me though, even though it is behind my back?
I really blame Cosby though. In his bit, "200 mph", he said he lived 2 miles away from work and needed a car that could go 200mph? I guess I was at a very impressionable age?
...and you don't need fancy aluminum heads to make over 500 hp. This is a .030 over 351c (357) with 4v iron heads. Look at the dyno numbers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRdwWgSGqvc
What's wrong with 551hp?