Cooling system noises

bad news Dennis,

that's the noise of a head gasket installed improperly oriented.

George

I double checked this when I installed it making sure that all of the passages lined up. The gaskets that I used also were marked "front". Any way of checking this without pulling the head again? Wouldn't the engine overheat with the gaskets improperly installed?

No way to determine how the gaskets are installed without pulling the heads.

The engine IS overheating, the gurgling sound you hear is steam, steam forming because cool water is not circulating. That's why it continues to "percolate" even after the motor is shut off, until it cools down. Your temp gage doesn't register the high temps because the hot water isn't flowing, it isn't making it to the gage sender to give you a high reading. Its bottled up inside the head.

If you're sure the gaskets are BOTH oriented properly, is there a possibility that one of the head to block passages is plugged, the ones in the corner of the head? Did the heads come with plugs for those passages that you might have forgotten to remove?

cowboy from the land of bad news

The heads came with plugs uninstalled and instruction to install them for clevor builds. Would the pecolating noise come from the heads? The sounds are definitely coming from the water pump, you can feel it when touching the pump or pulley and I also listened with a stethescope, no noises from the heads. This is the picture of the head before installation. Do you see anything that I missed? Could it be an air pocket in the water pump? Thanks!

So long as the holes where the arrows are pointing (see pic below) remained unplugged, the heads are OK.

There is no source of heat that would boil coolant at the water pump, the source of heat is the block & especially the heads. The water pump discharges into the water jacket of the block, therefore any "percolating" in the block could be heard in the water pump, in fact steam may be "flashing" into the water pump from the block.

Lets do a test. It will take a bit of effort, but its better than removing the heads.

Remove the coolant outlet tube & thermostat from the block. Remove the outlet tube from the upper connection of the swirl tank too. Now plug the swirl tank's upper connection. Close your heater core isolation valves if you have them, otherwise make sure your heater control valve is shut.

Now pour coolant into the swirl tank, eventually, after you've poured enough coolant, the coolant should start to overflow out the block outlet, right? Its a little bit lower than the top of the swirl tank. If it doesn't overflow from the block, but instead backs up & overflows the swirl tank, this would verify blockage at the heads.

cowboy from hell

Sounds like an air pocket.
Have you bled the system with the rear end jacked up using the bleeder on the radiator ?

This was the first time that the car has really been run other than the break in run in the garage. I haven't really bled the system for air yet and I'm hoping that this is the problem. If the problem persists after that, I will follow George's trouble shooting suggestion to check for obstructed cooling passages. Hopefully this won't be the case as I really am not looking forward to pulling off the heads! Thanks for all the help guys!

P.S. Looking forward to seeing you guys in LV!

To do a thorough purging takes 2 steps:

(1) raise the rear end to get air stuck in the long pipes & radiator to migrate uphill towards the motor & swirl tank

(2) afterwards, lower the rear end and raise the front end, to allow any air in the block to accumulate in the front of the block and vent through the thermostat housing. Since the engine sits flat, it would be possible for large pockets of air to accumulate in the back of the block and just sit there.

see ya in LV

Not to throw any more wrenches in the machinery, I want to add that I have had issues with certain brands of head gaskets.

I have had this type of problem even when the gaskets are installed both market front.

It's only the one gasket that in order to install front to front, it needs to be upside down.

In fact, on an engine that I sold, I was told by the buyer that the engine overheated because one of the gaskets was put on backwards.
It wasn't. It was put on upside down because there are not left and right gaskets and on one the front has to be upside down to be towards the front.

When I ran iron heads I used the Ford Reintz head gasket with the "steam pocket" hole that the installeer (me) had to drill. That worked well.

Since going to the aluminum "Motorsport" heads I've used the Fel-pro head gaskets. #1013. There is also a #1021 for Windsor block.

There is a notation in the Felpro book that cautions about Cleveland heads on Windsor blocks and that the passages need to be modified.

Also worth noting. Are you sure that the water pump you put in has the bypass orifice drilled? Remember, the Wieand does not.

In one of the Ford Tech bulletins, it recommends that a 1/4" hose be added from the bleed valve on the radiator to the swirl tank to relase trapped air.

I did this and it seems to help.

...I would like to point out; as far as the pictured holes with the arrows pointing to them, concerning the hole that would end up at the REAR of the cleveland block; there is NO 'Mating' hole at the rear of the block. This hole was never drilled. Or is that true only on the block that I have?? On the right side, the farthest to the rear of the head is the #4 Exhaust Valve. Must get pretty hot as aprox. the rear 1/4 of the head is a 'Dead-End' for coolant flow. Becoming a steam pocket, no where for the steam to go but back out the way it came in, and in doing so, forces the incoming coolant back out against the action of the waterpump, preventing coolant from doing it's job. The only holes you'll find at that end (rear)of the Block, are the head bolt holes and one 'Oil Drain Back Hole'. That is the reason some of us have drilled and tapped that dead end pocket for a steam/coolant bypass to a surge tank. I'am not saying this may be a cause of you noises, I am saying that not ALL of the coolant holes in the head have a mating hole in the block...

Thanks again for all the help and suggestions. I had to flip one of the gaskets too. The "front" marking was correct just had to be oriented upside down to make all the passages match. I'm fairly confident that I have the head gaskets installed properly as I took a long time making sure that all passages were clear which is why I remember doing this. As I said, I had made a few mistakes doing this job that by the time that I got to the head installations, I was being very careful about everything. The water pump does have the by pass passage and I installed a new thermostat during the swap. I haven't purged the system since installation but had never heard such noises from air in the system before. I'll bleed the system properly today and let you guys know. Thanks again!

Purged the cooling system today. A lot of air came out but the problem still exists. Using a stethescope, the sound only comes from the impeller/nose section of the waterpump itself and does sound like water percolating in an air pocket. No sounds coming from either head. Shot the engine with a laser thermometer and no overheating of the heads or block. Could this be a water pump issue? I guess I'll have to run George's troubleshoot next to check the flow.

quote:

Originally posted by 4NFORD:
...I had to flip one of the gaskets too. The "front" marking was correct just had to be oriented upside down to make all the passages match...

HUH?

how do you "flip" ONE head gasket, and the front is still front?

by the way, there is a gotcha to the test I suggested, if only one side is blocked, the other side OK, coolant will still flow out the water neck outlet. DOH!

I would suggest its a water pump bearing making the noise, except for the fact you wrote the noise continues even after you shut down the motor. That is, and can ONLY be, boiling coolant. Its not air making the noise, you would only hear air when the motor is running, the pump is pumping the coolant. Coolant has to get pretty hot to boil, especially when its under 16 psi pressure.

My best GUESS, without being there to hear things for myself, the head gasket you flipped is the culprit. I'll wager $20.

cowboy from hell

quote:

quote:
new thermostat during the swap


Did you put the right thermostat in?

Did you put it in the right direction?

I know this sounds pretty lame to even ask, just tossing out ideas. ;-)

Larry

I initially thought that the bearing was making the noise too until I turned off the motor and it persisted. We all listened today with a stethescope and it is definitely a boiling sound and definitely coming from the water pump impeller area and nowhere else. If it was the head gasket, would the sound be coming from the head itself? By the flipped gasket, I meant that the word "front" in facing the block not up towards the head.

I propped up the front end of the car, ran it again then purged the air through the radiator petcock. There was a lot coming out but the noise was still there. I have the heater outlets plugged with caps (no need for the heater here, hmm could this be a contributing factor?) I loosened the clamp a bit while the car was running and the system was pressurized and a lot of air came out of there too. This seemed to stop most if not all of the percolating sound. A fellow Pantera owner here told me that he had a similar condition and he ran a bypass hose connecting both heater outlets (block and pump) and this minimized the air collecting in the pump.

Hopefully this will end this problem. I'm going to buy some heater hose and run this bypass and take the car for a drive and see what happens. If not, I'll pull off the outlet like George suggested and check the water flow that way. Hopefully this is another of these odd things that only happens to me!

BTW Mark, I do have the correct thermostat. Thanks again guys!

If you're going to run a hose between the heater outlet and the heater return, you might as well install a Widsor thermostat while you're at it, because they both accomplish the same thing, water is recirculated without going through the radiator.

If you've got air trapped in the block, just raise the front end of the car with the motor running and up to normal temp (i.e. thermostat open), the air should pass on through and on to the swirl tank.

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 4NFORD:
...I had to flip one of the gaskets too. The "front" marking was correct just had to be oriented upside down to make all the passages match...

HUH?

Both head gaskets are marked front. They are the same head gasket.
If they are to both be installed with "front" towards the front, one will be "upside down" and you will not be able to read front as it is laying on the block. It was flipped over.

They both say "front". They do not say "this side up". It they did then there would have to be a left and a right head gasket.

To my knowledge there are not.

That's what I mean by flipping it.

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
If you're going to run a hose between the heater outlet and the heater return, you might as well install a Widsor thermostat while you're at it, because they both accomplish the same thing, water is recirculated without going through the radiator.

If you've got air trapped in the block, just raise the front end of the car with the motor running and up to normal temp (i.e. thermostat open), the air should pass on through and on to the swirl tank.

I guess that this may have been the case. Raising the back didn't do much although air did come out but after raising the front the problem seems to have gone away. I have to do a road test but running to normal operating temperature in the garage exibited no signs of the problem after lifting the front and purging. Oh well, chalk up another one for me and my weird problems.

Thanks for the information on the heater bypassing, I didn't think of that and will pass it on.

quote:

Originally posted by 4NFORD:
... after raising the front the problem seems to have gone away...

OK boys, its Miller time

Great news!

You know it is odd how some cars are much easer to purge air out than others. I’ve changed the coolant many times in the last eight years and I never have problems getting the air out of the system. I do have a vent that I can open in the driver’s side radiator top corner that might be the key to my success. Never ever have had to jack it up to get the air out.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:

quote:

Originally posted by 4NFORD:
... after raising the front the problem seems to have gone away...

OK boys, its Miller time

Whoa, not so fast to the bottles! I still have to take it for a long drive. You know how my luck holds out with these things! I've never had a problem with air in the system until this upgrade

I don't remember flipping any of my head gaskets, and everything aligned good. Maby I just got lucky? Sounds like trapped air in the engine somewhere. It may take a few drives to migrate the bubbles out of the cooling system. I hope mine's ok, taking it to Vegas in a few days!!! Good Luck!!

Lifting the front up huh? Mine looks like a marlin hanging from a hook. Even at that I have to shake it a little.

Success! I took her for a 1 hour drive after work today and no noises, no overheating and she ran strong. Finally seems like I got all of the air out of the system as none came out during todays bleeding session. Now it's time to play with the carburetor as she running really lean during acceleration with the new cam and heads. Thanks again all.