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No Smoke - Yet ...

57545754If you're not kickin' up dust, you're collectin' it!
Ok, I know I need to replace the ammeter with a volt meter, I'm overdue making this update and now that the car is out of winter storage, I have no excuse - well, one actually - does anyone have a Veglia volt meter kicking around that they want to unload?

Now to the problem driving me to do this and I need opinions as to whether this is likely going to fix the problem, or just bury it behind the dash where bad things could happen ...

Last year the voltage regulator went on the car and the battery boiled over (ammeter was at the top end of the scale during a long drive and heated up to the point where I'm sure I would have burnt my fingers if I let them touch it for more than a fraction of a second. The Tachometer was also acting up, it would get to about 3000 RPM then drop to zero until I shifted, then climb to 3K again and drop - I checked the ammeter connections and they were solid, so that's when the regulator seemed like a weak link).

I replaced the voltage regulator (electronic instead of the old mechanical one) and with a gauge directly on the battery it was pegged at 14.1 volts as I wound up the engine and didn't go any higher (prior to the new regulator, it was reaching the high teens by 3K RPM). The Tach was working perfectly again, and no excessive heat from the ammeter, so I figured I'd solved the problem, took out the old battery for the winter, and just dropped a brand new one in, put on the battery tender to ensure it was full, and everything seemed good. On Sunday I went for a good run, with no problems, but then went out again in the evening to a show, and the Tach was starting to act up again and the ammeter was starting to get extra warm - fortunately it was a short run and when I started her up for the drive home there were no problems, tach was fine, ammeter bezel was fine.

I put her on the battery tender and lo and behold the gauge showed the brand new battery was down quite a bit (it was 100% a few hours earlier when I started out on my long run). Yesterday I fired her up with a meter on the battery and she wasn't going above 14.1 so now I'm stumped. It's almost as though she really isn't charging the battery (but metering the battery says she must be) when I'm driving, so the battery runs down, and the draw to try to charge the battery goes up and up until the regulator can't handle it and passes higher voltage (causing the tach to act up) and amperage (causing the Ammeter to heat up).

Does this sound possible/likely (perhaps an intermittent grounding somewhere, but I'm not an electrical wiz), and if so, then I'm actually worried that taking the ammeter out of the loop may just remove a warning sign (the hot bezel) and I'll go along happily until there is smoke or worse.

Opinions?
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57545754If you're not kickin' up dust, you're collectin' it!
LOL - Thanks Larry! I've bookmarked the site so if/when any of the original Lucas smoke leaks out I can get there directly.

Some classic 'good' advice that I'll have to try right away ...

quote:
Q: Geez, I wish I had seen this auction before I bought some "off-shore" smoke. I didn't realize there was some OEM stuff left. To make matters worse, I switched to synthetic smoke (yeah, I know) but it seemed like the right thing to do at the time. Unfortunately for my 72 Range Rover, I have not yet been able to fashion an effective bypass for the optional Fairey smoke pump which has recently failed. If only you could have made this item available earlier!
A: Hook you battery charger up with the leads reversed, preferably at the starting motor, and turn it to "high". This should purge the wires of all the synthetic smoke, enabling a refill with the proper stuff.


roll on floor


But seriously guys, does my car have a multiple-personality-disorder here, or is it more likely me?
J jb1490Member
Ah, electrical gremlins, and long distance too. Some questions first:

1. When you went to the show and had the tach problem, what was the ammeter indicating?

2. On the way home from the show, what was the ammeter indicating? +/-/0/slight charge/discharge???

3. Do you have an aftermarket ignition system? Does it have a tach adapter?

Assuming (fatal error) that the alternator, voltage regulator, and associated wiring are not at fault, then the only way for the ammeter to show a heavy charge is for the wiring on the battery side of the ammeter (the ammeter included) to have a wiring problem. This could be a grounding (or intermittent grounding) condition or a loose connection. This would include the wire from the ammeter to the battery, the wire (battery cable) from the battery to the starter solenoid, the yellow (I think) wire that goes from the battery terminal side of the starter solenoid to the A+ terminal of the voltage regulator, and the battery ground cable. I would check the battery ground cable and its' connection to the car body first.

Also, you could have gotten a bad regulator.

If you could temporarily connect a volt meter to the battery and drive the car (with the voltmeter where you can see it while driving), this would be the best way to see what's really going on voltage wise.

Below is a typical Ford charging system diagram. This is from the Ford book. Some of the wiring colors are different on the Pantera, but it gives you a good overview.

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57545754If you're not kickin' up dust, you're collectin' it!
JB
Good things for me to test

In answer to your questions...
1 & 2 - Ammeter got scorched last year, the needle turned brown and is stuck at '75' with the engine on or off - so right now it is just acting as a hole filler and passing voltage straight across ... you've got me wondering if I should just pop it out splice the wires and leave the hole open for a while so I can reach in and feel them for temperature until I'm comfortable there's no problem, then drop a voltmeter in the spot in a couple of weeks.

As for #3 - yes, it's an MSD system (installed before I bought the car), I believe there's a tach adapter, but I haven't cataloged and looked up all of the stuff that's on the car yet (I'll make this a priority) - {UPDATE: yes, it has an MSD Tach Adaptor}

As for intermittent ground, that's a possibility, the accessory jack is not hooked up, so the wires for it are somewhere in the dash and maybe bouncing around and drawing down the battery one day, and not another {UPDATE: There's a cluster of purple wires just sitting there disconnected as well, I'll dig further into the rats next over the next few days}. Also, I put in a remote RC kill switch on the battery (black box that mounts to the positive terminal and when I hit a switch on the keyring, it disconnects the battery), if something inside that was damaged last year during the high current situation that boiled the battery, maybe it's causing a problem ... Out it comes!

I have a digital voltmeter that I should be able to jury rig directly off the battery so I can watch it while driving - good idea.

Thanks!
Last edited by 5754
57545754If you're not kickin' up dust, you're collectin' it!
Update:
Pulled the ammeter and it was toasted on the back ...

The needle turned brown it got so hot -

Even the wire discoloured from red to black over an inch from the gauge. and the insulator melted nicely -

I can't get the bolt on the right hand terminal to loosen, it's fused pretty good -



I've now spliced the wires and took a feed off of it for the volt meter (which I've yet to track down). Soldered the leads together, gave them a copious amount of liquid electrical tape (to keep the air out and prevent any corrosion), then wrapped it well in real electrical tape to ensure it doesn't ground out - I thought I had some proper sized shrink tubing, but 5mm was the largest I had and it wasn't sufficient :-(

I then took apart the console and wired in the accessory jack, so now I can plug in my volt meter and see the charge before I start the car, then monitor the charging voltage while she's running and then see the charge at the end of a run - she performed perfectly today (had one of the kids ride shotgun on a quick spin and call out the numbers, charge voltage never went above 13.8) ... I'll need to go on a longer run and try loading up the system (headlights, fans etc.) to see if that changes things.

P.S. JB I found the MSD tach adapter, wires looked fine coming and going ... I think I dodged a bullet here (no fire) and am going to be watching to see if things are settled down now.

Thanks guys!
57545754If you're not kickin' up dust, you're collectin' it!
I picked up my replacement at CarQuest, it's part number VR166 - Made by Standard Motor Products, but packaged in a CarQuest box

I dug out the receipt, it lists for $77.82, but I got it for $46.69 "Preferred Cash Customer" rate plus tax - $52.76 out the door.

I was in a hurry, so I just went with the closest store to me, Napa, PartSource and others probably carry the same thing.

A word of caution, if the VR is going, you don't want the battery to boil over, so fix it ASAP - I have my battery in one of those plastic battery holders and it's notched to allow the hold-down to fit over it. If it wasn't in the bucket, I'd be replacing carpeting in the front trunk and cleaning up any damage to the paint underneath from the acid that boiled out - it took a lot of blue shop towels and baking soda to neutralize and clean up the mess in the box - had to strip and repaint the hold-down, but that was nothing compared to what could have happened!

One final note, if you have the stock regulator and the 'stock' appearance is what you want, then I've read posts on other car forums where they've drilled out the rivets in the old and new units, and put the guts of the new VR into the old casing - I'm not sure that anyone will notice the VR in a Pantera when its buried way down on the firewall though.

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indydaveindydaveMember
I installed this Volt Meter manufactured by Make Waves last year. Nice looking very close match.

NAPA #BK 5011737 $20.09 (current price)
CARQUEST #81396

Dimensions : 2-1/16"
Mechanical or Electrical : Electrical
Outer Finish : Chrome
Style Name : NAPA Voltmeter Gauge Kit
Bezel Color : Chrome
Gauge Dial Sweep Degree : 90 Degree (Short Sweep)
Gauge Face Color : Black
Illuminated or Non-Illuminated : Illuminated
Manufacturer : Make Waves Instrument Company
Manufacturer Part Number : 2400
Mounting Hole Diameter : 2-1/16"
Operable on Positive Ground System : No
Restrictions : 8 to 16 Volts

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57545754If you're not kickin' up dust, you're collectin' it!
quote:
Originally posted by cat7195:

Where did you source the Veglia volt meter? Thanks. Dan


Hi Dan,
There was a fellow in Cyprus selling 2 Veglia Volt gauges on e-Bay last month, they're not officially Pantera meters, but on the advice of another Pantera owner who has one, I went for it.

Looks like the second Veglia gauge is still out there for sale ...

Veglia Volt Meter on E-Bay



The one IndyDave shows in his post looks pretty good too, and for $20 that's not too shabby!
57545754If you're not kickin' up dust, you're collectin' it!
When mine arrives, I'll take a shot with it next to the other gauges and post it - the colours in the image on e-bay aren't great, it looks like the text is almost white instead of green, so it may not be a great match ... but I don't know how long it will take to arrive or how long the second gauge will remain for sale. I wouldn't want you to spend $50+shipping for something that may not be better than what you have.
57545754If you're not kickin' up dust, you're collectin' it!
It arrived today - here's what it looks like in the cluster ... not a fantastic match, the bezel is a little wider, the text and needle are white, not green and the needle points down instead of up, but I've bought it and it's going to go in ... maybe someday I'll replace all of the gauges, but until I find a better match or buy a whole new set of gauges, it's close enough that it won't bother me, and it's looks better than the melted ammeter Wink ...

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garth66garth66"When speed is the only thing that counts"
quote:
If it wasn't in the bucket, I'd be replacing carpeting in the front trunk and cleaning up any damage to the paint underneath from the acid that boiled out - it took a lot of blue shop towels and baking soda to neutralize and clean up the mess in the box - had to strip and repaint the hold-down, but that was nothing compared to what could have happened!

This same thing happened to my car, before I bought it. It now has a similar battery box, along with acid-eaten carpet and etched front trunk. The acid also dripped through one of the wire pass-through holes into the interior passenger footwell where it damaged the carpet there too.

Do yourself a favor and get one of these battery boxes.
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