1/4 mile times for modde Panteras

I don't know about the top 10 but I have run mine at 12.75 and 115 MPH on street tires babying it through first gear until it hooks up.
Forest

quote:

I don't know about the top 10 but I have run mine at 12.75 and 115 MPH on street tires babying it through first gear until it hooks up.
Forest

Forest,

Now, tell the troops about your engine - don't be bashful

Larry

Yeah! 115mph @12.75 your 60' must have been in the mid 2's

Surely there are guys our there running single digit quarters in street cars aren't there?

I doubt I'm top ten either, maybe top 100. I'll do 12:85s on a cool day around 113 or so. I'm an awful drag racer. Once a year is plenty for me at the drag strip.

I am pretty sure Burgundy Express runs in the 9's. I hope to some day as well.

I'm new, what's the Burgundy Express?

There are lots of 'street' cars that run legit 9 second 1/4 mile times. Many are thinly disguised race cars with tags, some are a little more street car like. For a Pantera to pull 9's means that all that power and shock goes through the ZF, is that possible, and live?

The Burgandy Express was in the 9's but they did a ring and pinion in it. It wasn't the stock 4.22. I seem to remember it as being a 5.38 but ...
That's a $4000 change (just the ring and pinion).
That would make some street set up.

The run I mentioned was not with the engine or tires that are on the car now. This was several years back when it had the stock displacement cleveland with the magnachargers and fuel injection. The strip in Sacramento at that time did not have 60' timers so no idea what the 60 foot time was. I never had the mgnacharged cleveland stroker on the track so have no idea what it would have run but the seat of the pants dyno says it would have been better. This was with Goodyear gatorbacks sized 265/60 15. Someday I hope to find time to both 1/4 mile test and rear wheel dyno test the 521 that's in it now.
Forest

I ran the 1/8 one day. I think it was 8.4 and 86mh. I;ll have to dig out the slip. I was only running 295 (previously dinoed)rwhp. I don't know 1/4. The weight being further back really helps them launch.

Gary

quote:

Originally posted by johnk:
I'm new, what's the Burgundy Express?

There are lots of 'street' cars that run legit 9 second 1/4 mile times. Many are thinly disguised race cars with tags, some are a little more street car like. For a Pantera to pull 9's means that all that power and shock goes through the ZF, is that possible, and live?

Yes, I know there are alot of street cars running even in the 8's, I wouldn't say thinly disguised race cars though. I have a 94 Supra with all the stock components, including a/c, overdrive, and I regularly drive it on the street. The car has run a best time of 9.17 @152 weighing in at 3850lbs leaving on a foot brake.

My concern with the Pantera is with the trans as well. I am just finishing up twin T66 turbos and an AEM engine management system on my Pantera, and before I go crazy at the track I want to know what to be careful of!

Jason,
Any pics, sounds awesome.
Dennis D

I have taken some of the work in progress. I will try to post some up by the weekend.

Another question I have been trying to find out is how strong the cleveland block is. I can't seem to find anyone who has really pushed it.

Depends which block. The Australian's thought to be good for around 1000, probably more like 900. The US can take around 800-850 with a main girdle and screw in plugs. Don't quote me on this ok?
It's more that the Australian block will last longer without rebuilding it because it's harder. You can break any of them.
I'd worry more about the ZF breaking before the block. It certainly is safe to say that's its not safe at 1000hp.

I know it's a 4 bolt main, but aside from that how do you tell which is the australian block and the u.s. block? Sorry, I'm a bit new to the Pantera stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by Jason S.:
Another question I have been trying to find out is how strong the cleveland block is.

Jason,

Drag racers seem to get more longevity out of the block than do road track & circle track racers. Just an observation, I really don't have an explanation, except that it takes a lot of 1/4 mile passes to equal the distance or time of one road track event (or NASCAR oval track event). The drag racers also fill the water jackets with hard block, whereas the road track guys have to circulate coolant, therefore at best they can only run a half fill of hard block.

The Cleveland blocks fail predominantly in 2 ways; cracking the webbing above the main bearing saddles, or cracking cylinder walls. RPM appears to be more of a problem than absolute power output, but extreme amounts of either will lead to failure. It is commonly accepted that the production blocks, Cleveland or Windsor, are stressed at "maintained" power outputs of around 450 to 500 bhp. There are guys running those power levels successfully, but there are others that have had failures at those levels. "Maintained" operation above 7000 rpm will also shorten the life expectancy of those blocks. There are many factors that add up to create the stresses that cause a block to fail, plus there are inconsistencies in production (quality control issues). Too much to cover here. The point I'll make is that a carefully & intelligently assembled motor, with everything blue printed & balanced to perfection, will survive more abuse than a motor that has been assembled with less care. And a motor in a poor state of tune increases the stresses on the block & reciprocating assembly tremendously.

The NASCAR block addressed the cracking problem two fold, (1) the webbing above the main bearing saddles is much thicker than the production block (2) the cylinder wall thickness was sonic checked at the foundry and only the blocks with minimal core shift (and therefore more uniformly thicker cylinder walls) were imported to the US and supplied to the race teams. I've never heard or read what the limits are considered for the NASCAR block from an official source. Certainly somewhere in the 750 to 900 bhp range seems reasonable.

If you press me for safe limits on the production block, I need to know 2 things, the use of the motor and how well it will be assembled. For the typical street guy who only occasionally winds the motor out, I feel safe saying 500 bhp & 6500 rpm, or 450 bhp & 7000 rpm, so long as the motor is in a proper state of tune AND has been dynamically balanced. For a track racer, or an open road racer, where the maximum rpm or maximum output will be sustained for long periods, those limits should be reduced. It is unsafe to operate the motor for sustained periods above 7000 rpm without employing an internally balanced & lightened crankshaft, plus lightened rods & pistons as well. Lightening the reciprocating assembly dramatically reduces the stresses it puts on the engine block at higher rpm.

Your friend on the DTBB, George

quote:

Originally posted by Jason S.:
I know it's a 4 bolt main, but aside from that how do you tell which is the australian block and the u.s. block?

Jason,

The US manufactured blocks for motors originally equipped with the spread bore Autolite carb ('71 Boss, '72 HO, '72 - '74 Q code motor, aka the Cobra Jet motor) also had 4 bolt mains.

There were at least 2 batches of NASCAR blocks, one in the seventies, and one in the early eighties. The first batch are externally identical to the production block, except for that special NASCAR casting number (XE192540). The second batch, which are also known as "pillow blocks" have bumps on the sides of the block in the water jacket area, as well as the same casting number. Internally the blocks are easily identified by the thicker webbing above the main bearing saddles.

Your friend on the DTBB, George

Below is a pic comparing the NASCAR block to the production block. I apologize because the features of the production block are hard to distinguish due to the black oil residue covering the casting.

George

Thanks for all the info, very good information. The engine has been balanced and has forged pistons and rods. I really won't be running over 6500rpm. The motor was built as an autox motor so the powerband is from 1800 to 6400. I was planning on running around 10psi, which would quite easily make around 700hp on this particular engine combination. The use will be street, occasional drag strip, and autox. It sounds like about what I figured...I need a stronger engine to do what I really want to do. Tuning isn't a problem...it's what I do for a living! I seriously appreciate all the information. I have been in love with these cars since I first started driving. I watched the car I now own running a local autox event back in the late 80's. The gentlemen that owned the car and I became good friends, and I stayed in touch, bothering him as often as I could to sell me the car! Finally he gave in! You guys who have been around for awhile probably know him, his name is E.J. Poss! I am now the owner of his beautiful yellow 71!

Thanks again for the info!

Jason,

forgive my rudeness! I haven't given you a proper welcome.

Welcome to the DTBB! Glad to have you with us!

your friend on the DTBB, George

JasonS, what did you do for a clutch. That is well beyond what a stock or centerforce clutch can hold?

The clutch that is in it is a Mcleod clutch. I am not sure which one (if there is more than one). The clutch that is in the car is the same one he was using when he used to drag race the car,and has already taken the car to a 9.9 waaayyy back in the day, so I think it should be good....for now!

Thanks for the input and welcome guys, it's much appreaciated

I know that the Centerforce dual friction that I use will slip without the nitrous oxide. As a matteer of fact, there is no point in using nitrous for that reason. The concensous around here is that it is thought to be good for about 500hp.
I was just curious, thanks.

I know that E.J. use to run 2 stages of nitrous on the Mcleod clutch, and it held just fine... so I am hoping I have the same luck.