GT5 clone?

Personally, I like the blacked out hood and deck. I'm not sure about the decal though. I think I would lean toward blacking out the lower sides to match the hood and deck and forget the decals.

It just comes down to personal taste and what makes you happy. I own a small paint and body shop and love helping people to personalize their rides. Even subtle changes make a difference. It seems that everyone wants to be a little different than the next guy.

Regards,
Rick

Rick, I too am in the paint and body business. On the lower sections..I was thinking of what Kirk Evans did with a little lighter or darker red..I think it would make the car look lower without dragging....I busted my front spoiler so many times I just took it off. You kmow how us paint guys cut color off at a body bend..well if you look at the Pantera the lower section looks darker than true, If I cut it there and make it a bit lighter it would essentially look the same color all over...kinda trick.

Bill, I think you want the decal to say GTS and not GT5. GT5 was like a mid-eighties car and it had real wide flairs and a little scoop for the back breaks. Cybomans car is a GT5. My car is a GTS and yours would look closer to my car than a GT5.

lpb,

Do you mean GTS? A GT5 is a fully flared Pantera, like Coz's genuine white GT5.

The differences between a regular Pantera L and a GTS were only cosmetic. The front and rear decklids were painted black, as was the lower half of the body. All of the chrome trim was blacked out as well. The GTS also had small fender flares, but did not come with wider wheels. 'PANTERA GTS' was on the lower body between the wheels.

There were GTS emblems in the wheel centers, shifter knob, and I think steering wheel (which is also different). A clock was installed on the dashboard in front of the passenger. And besides the 'GT' in the vin (THGTxx0xxxx), everything else was the same.

The figures for GTS's were between 98 and 124 made. They only came in 3 colors: about 50 in burgundy, 30ish in silver, and 30ish in gold. From what I understand, they were all '74 models, but some were titled and/or registered as '73's. I've even heard of '72 European GTS's, but the figures above are for the US spec cars.

A European GTS had enigine and suspension upgrades as well.

There are many GTS, GT5, and GT5-S cloned Panteras out there. There's even a cloned Si! I have a real GT5-S and it doesn't bother me that there are clones out there one bit. It is a way for an owner who may have had his Pantera for many years, and doesn't want to part with his particular car, to change the look if he wants to without 'starting over'. Others feel it's cheaper to build a clone. Others slowly evolve into one.

The only real issue I see with clones is when buying one. Some people may portray their clone as the real deal in order to get more money for it. There are ways to tell (like the vin on a GTS, and the engine bay panels on 5's and 5-S's), but someone new to the Pantera world may not know these differences.

The GTS look is personal preference. I like it. The giveaway on your Pantera is the push button door handle, but if you like the look, I say go for it! You don't have to go the full clone route, of course. You can just do the decklids, or any combination that you like!

Michael

Cutting in with a lighter or darker red color at the lower style line would be pretty cool. Besides, if you get tired of the look or don't like the way it turns out, you are in a prime position to change it. That is one of my favorite things about being in the body/paint business. The creation aspect is pretty cool. It is just hard to find time to work on my own vehicles when I finally decide what I want to do to them.

Hmm, I like the lighter/darker color combo idea!! I wonder how it would work with my yellow?? Mustard, perhaps?

FWIW, I would forgo the decal idea since it says GT-5 and your car screams pushbutton. I'm not a big fan of the two-tone look..so personally I would pass on it. Strictly my opinion!

NICE car btw!!

Kevin

Cyboman, mine is a real life 100 percent authentic europeon GTS.

OK, all this talk about GTS Panteras, I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents about the history of the US spec GTS Panteras.

Michael mentioned they have GTS badges all over them, one thing they don't have, a deTomaso badge, not one. The GTS badges replaced the deTomaso badges. Mr & Mrs deTomaso walked out in Septmeber 1973, I believe that's when a 4 year contract with Ford expired. So Ford stopped advertising anything to do with deTomaso. GTS literature mentions Pantera by Ghia, never mentions deTomaso.

My 2 cents.

By the way Bill, you can paint your Pantera any way you desire, so long as it isn't WHITE! Right Kevin?

your historical friend on the PIBB, George

quote:

By the way Bill, you can paint your Pantera any way you desire, so long as it isn't WHITE! Right Kevin?

You couldn't resist, huh? HAHAHAHAHA

DeTom,

Can you tell us more about your Euro GTS? What year is it? How did it get here? How long do you own it? Does it have 'GT' in the vin? (I heard that only the US GTS's have the 'GT' in the vin.) What differences have you noticed between the US and Euro GTS's? Thanks.

Michael

Someone say GT-5....

Whoaa!!! I think I will leave the GT5 part of the decal off, If I use it at all,It would be a sacriligle to do any thing elese...Downunder, looks great. I just have to stick with the buttons.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyboman:
DeTom,

Can you tell us more about your Euro GTS? What year is it? How did it get here? How long do you own it? Does it have 'GT' in the vin? (I heard that only the US GTS's have the 'GT' in the vin.) What differences have you noticed between the US and Euro GTS's? Thanks.

Michael

Sure Michael, I love talking about my car. My car was built in November of 1972, so it is a 1973 model year. It is black. It's first owner was an Italian guy, who it is said did not like it because of the low end torque. Apperantly he was used to Italian performance cars that had to be wound out to go like an ape and the immediate throttle response was not to his liking. Anyway as the legend goes, a man in New York was looking for a high school graduation present for his Son. His name was Yoder. The story goes he bought the Pantera from the Italian owner and had it imported for his Son's graduation. However when he picked up the car and was driving it home, he relized his son would be killed in this car very quickly. So he went out and bought him a new Corvette instead. He kept the Pantera for himself. It looked to me like he had it updated in the mid ninetys as it came with an Edlebrock performer manifold and a coffee table wing by the time I got it. Then the legend continues that the guy I bought it from had gotten the car in Las Vegas where he spent about ecvery weekend of his adult life. I got the impression the guy was a kinda card shark kinda guy. SO I bet he won it in a high stakes poker game.
Well the guy I bought it from had only had it for two years and his wife was divorceing him so he insisted on a cash only deal. So I took out a second morgatge on my house and bought the car from him. At the time, I had no idea it was anything more special than a Pantera, but it was in way better shape than the other one I was looking at. My wife agreed not to divorce me if I bought this one, but if I bought the other one she was leaving.
It has a clock that is simply amazing because it never losses a second of time. The clock is beutiful. It came with real high compresion heads, but my son and I blew up the original engine by putting the timing in the wrong order. So this last winter I had a brand new Cleveland put in. It has lower compresion, so I don't have to use octane boost anymore, but it has 4 bolt mains, forged steel crank and vanadium h-beam rods, so I don't think it will blow up as easily as the last one. I saved the heads from the old motor in case I want more zip back when the warrenty period is over. BUt then again, I may go forced induction as low compression is made for that. Or I may just leave it like it is. I have three years to decide, because it is under warrenty that long. The car has all Italian instruments. The gas gauge says Benzio on it instead of gas. The temprerature gauge only goes to 110. But that is celius. The horn sound old timey and funny. The antenna is mounted to the roof, it came with a Blaunkampt Am/FM Stereo cassette. It is just beutiful and quirky and I love every square inch of her. Sometimes it is a pain to figure out how fast you are going because the speedometer is in kilometers so you have to multiply the reading by .66 in your head, but maybe it will keep me from getting alchimers??
It also came with gold annodized campis stock and I have Hall Ultra 17" wheels and tires on now. But this fall I am putting the original wheels and tires back on so I can lower my car bck down to the way it used to set. My wheels are as wide as the ones on your car, except my flair are not nearly as wide as ytours. Also my flairs are fiberglass and not steal, which kinda sucks because you can't roll the lips. So I have to have the car jacked way up, which looks cool for car shows, but it doesn't handle nearly as well as it used to. I think I am getting old because I don't care what other people think of my car nearly as much as I did, and just want to putter around in it, through the mountain passes, enjoying the vistas.

DeTom,

Thanks for the run down, it's an interesting story! Does your Pantera have 'GT' in the vin, or is it 'PN'?

Michael

Mark,

Is your Pantera back on the road, or is that picture from when it was?

Michael

Well, get with it Mark. The clock is ticking and the Rally is coming up.....

quote:

Originally posted by Mark:
WAS...

Still working on it.

Ok. I'm going to be the bad guy here. Being that it is a early rare pushbutton, I would have kept it as original as possible. Maybe update it with new wheels, but that would be about it.
It does look nice. I would not put the side Pantera GTS script on it.
Tom

quote:

Originally posted by Cyboman:
DeTom,

Thanks for the run down, it's an interesting story! Does your Pantera have 'GT' in the vin, or is it 'PN'?

Michael

No GT. Just the PNM and then a zero and the the 4903 serial number, only all together with no dashes.

My pushbutton has the logo on the bottom with "GTS". When I restore it, I will just use the words "DETOMASO" and forgo the GTS part.



I think GTS is a stretch for a pushbutton. It loooks ok to those who don't know better but I value the opinion of those who do know better a little more. There have been some nice examples of just that in the past magazines.

MArk, are your vents behind the window functional?

Gary

Cyboman, I know you may have seen this before but here is a pic.

DeTom,

Yes, I've seen that picture before, but I can look at great pictures over and over! I saved it. If you find a little time, why don't you put together a photo album of your fine piece of Italian machinery? I'd like to see more of it.

Michael

I was planning to this winter as I work on my car. Right now I am repacking the mufflers so I am going to take pictures as I do it, then I am going to change out wheels and lower the car to the ground. I mean I am going to put her so low that it follows every bump in the road and no light can enter or escape from the underside. I am putting her so low I will have to look up at whale turds.
But I plan on taking lots of pictures and have aphoto album all ready, just in case the doctor tells me I only have such and such to live. That way even my wife will be able to sell the car easily without getting ripped off. Planning ahead for my future you might say.

DeTom,

Bodacious GTS................DUDE!

I can tell from how you've written about it that you really enjoy & are proud of your car, that is soooooo cool, why........shall I say it?...........It's BITCHEN!

your friend on the PIBB, George

Gosh george. Coming from you it is like getting a medal. Thanks.
BTW, I have something to ask you about. Cam timing. I know variable cam timing is getting popular and all and I was wondering, when they swith the cam timing as the RPMs get high, are they opening the valves sooner? Or later? Are they increasing lift or decreasing?
Also has anyone you know of experimented with variable length runners for their Panteras?

DeTom,

Variable valve timing has been implemented in so many ways; I won't get detailed & explain mechanisms.

Variable valve timing has been implemented that effects the intake valves only, the exhaust valves only and both intake and exhaust valves. In some instances the duration of the cam event is manipulated (more duration at higher rpm), in others the valve lift is manipulated (more lift at higher rpm), in others the timing or "phasing" of the cam events is manipulated (retard the exhaust at higher rpm or advance the intake at higher rpm or both) which in effect makes the exhaust and intake cam events occur closer together at higher rpm (more "overlap").

Some manufacturer's systems manipulate one of these variables, others manipulate various combinations or all of the varaibles.

Some systems make the change in the manipulated variable "suddenly" at a certain rpm, others change the varible gradually over a band of rpm.

Here's a bit of info I found for you on the web:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VVT

I'm not aware of a variable length intake runner system implemented for the 351C. By the way, that's what those high rise, single plane, "spider" type intake manifolds are all about, they lengthen the intake runners for more torque production via acoustic tuning.

your friend on the PIBB, George

Thanks George, I knew I could count on you. I need to know this stuff because after I retire, I am going to make the worlds first camless engine. I plan on doing this by opening the valves electronically. This way I can mpa cam timing just like what is done today with fuel injection and spark advance. Ford has already attempted this in conjunction with Philips electronics, but they mad a serious mistake that lead them down a blind path. I know of a way to overcome the shortcomings they ran in to.
Why do this?? Well driving the cam takes a lot of horsepower. Parasitic loses. Think of all the additional mass involved in the timing gear, cam, push rods. I should be able to make any engine have ten to thirty percent MORE power!! Muwahahahahaa!! (Mad scientists evil laugh)

BMW has been working on that for over a decade. Using electrically operated valves. Their goal is to control engine rpm via valve events and to eliminate the throttle butterfly from the intake system. Doing so eliminates the low pressure (vacuum) in the intake manifold downstream of the throttle butterfly. The engine makes more bhp since the cylinders are filled with a denser charge of air, and gets better fuel economy since the pistons are not working against as much vacuum on the intake stroke. All sorts of advantages to your system, so get to work & beat BMW to the patent office!

your friend on the PIBB, George

Curses, foiled again. It will be ten years before I can retire. They will probably figure it out by then. Darn. See when Ford tried they were using solenoids. That is nothing but trouble because of excessive heat and EMP signals from the high volatge spark plug wires. I was going to use (edited upon advice of my esteemed colugue and co-inventor George Pence)on the valve. That gets away from all the problems encountered by them.

DeTom, perhaps you should edit that last post & eliminate the description of your solution, just in case BMW engineers don't think of that. It would be terrible if they found their solution while surfing the internet, on a Pantera Bulletin Board no less!

BMW was using solenoids as well!

George

OK.. have you heard of Coates cylindrical heads?

no pushing... just rolling

Thats not bad for a photo of a pic.. 12000 rpm?

never float a valve...CIAO

Yes I have heard of Coates, it's been a while, I mentioned their system to DeTom recently. Others have tried this approach too, Coates was not the first. Always have trouble with the exhaust side, it gets too hot. I haven't heard an "announcement" that they've resolved the issues. Needs a way to carry away heat, the oil does this in our current motors. What's the latest, are they looking for investors?

LPB! 5 more posts dude!

George

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
DeTom, perhaps you should edit that last post & eliminate the description of your solution, just in case BMW engineers don't think of that. It would be terrible if they found their solution while surfing the internet, on a Pantera Bulletin Board no less!

BMW was using solenoids as well!

Thanks for the advice George. You and I will get rich off of this thing.

George

quote:

Originally posted by lastpushbutton:
Thats not bad for a photo of a pic.. 12000 rpm?

Whoa!! Where can I get me some of them?? They expensive?

I missed that one. We could use a whole new topic on valve timing. RR is using it in thier huge luxury cars over 550 cu. The carbs actually run wide open all the time and the engine is controled by the valve openings. In doing so they are getting unheard of mielage for the size of car they are. Think if they could/would do that to a car half that size! It solves a lot of other carb/ fixed timing/valve engines too.

Gary

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
DeTom,

Variable valve timing has been implemented in so many ways; I won't get detailed & explain mechanisms.

Variable valve timing has been implemented that effects the intake valves only, the exhaust valves only and both intake and exhaust valves. In some instances the duration of the cam event is manipulated (more duration at higher rpm), in others the valve lift is manipulated (more lift at higher rpm), in others the timing or "phasing" of the cam events is manipulated (retard the exhaust at higher rpm or advance the intake at higher rpm or both) which in effect makes the exhaust and intake cam events occur closer together at higher rpm (more "overlap").

Some manufacturer's systems manipulate one of these variables, others manipulate various combinations or all of the varaibles.

Some systems make the change in the manipulated variable "suddenly" at a certain rpm, others change the varible gradually over a band of rpm.

Here's a bit of info I found for you on the web:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VVT

I'm not aware of a variable length intake runner system implemented for the 351C. By the way, that's what those high rise, single plane, "spider" type intake manifolds are all about, they lengthen the intake runners for more torque production via acoustic tuning.

your friend on the PIBB, George

I did a search on Coates and it is an engineering consulting firm. Evidently whoever was paying them ran out of money before a workable prototype could be completed.

Gary,

Rolls Royce is owned by BMW, so BMW has finally put their technology into production, on the Rolls! DeTom, it may be too late! You'll have to make those millions somewhere else.

George