V12 Pantera?

Welcome John,

I think this is a great idea. I suspect you'll need to find another way to hang the coils and wires to keep them out of the wet.

It would be interesting to get some dimensions to compare this motor size-wise to the Ford modular 4.6 which does have some tight-fit issues at the heads so you can determine potential fit issues. Of course constructing custom headers to fit around driveshafts, suspension etc will be some work, as will the transaxle fit/adapter/driveshafts. Sure looks like a cool "alternative" option for power.

I believe a guy in Sweden stuffed a BMW V8 into a Pantera with very nice results (and awesome sound). Also, since some early DeTomaso Guaras were shipped with a 4.0 V8 BMW powerplant nobody should be flaming this concept at all.

Can I get a ride when you're done?

Mark

Depending on the all-up weight, it looks feasible from your dimensions. And it can't be heavier than a Ford Triton V-10 (which will also fit, but even though it's a SOHC, its also an iron truck engine). I hope your builder did a good job as some BMW V-12s had weak bottom ends. Remember that blocks up to 4" LONGER than a 351C have been successfully fitted into the Pantera; the halfshafts do not need to run perfectly straight- the ZF can be slid back up to 4".
15 years ago, Ryan Falconer welded up a pair of aluminum 350 Chevy blocks & heads to make his 7-liter 'Falconer V-12'. He had one stuffed in a 'Vette and another in a Chevy pickup at several car shows. The only thing stopping me from going with one at the time was the $25,000 cost. Hopefully you aren't into the bimmer quite that deep.... Let up know how it runs & handles.

Hey BJ see the following vids
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXQsvDrohHk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...7yrM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...n24A&feature=related

Hi John,

Well, they called you John but I didn't see your name in your post so I hope it's your name!!

The pantera is perhaps one of the few cars where people won't run you out of town for doing what you are proposing, and you will actually find a bunch of people who say "Hey! Cool!"

As mentioned by others, I've seen at least two European Panteras that use BMW power (and at least one who uses an absolutely monster Hemi). I think a well engineered but heavily modified solution would gain more respect than a hacked-up stock car.

As Mark says, find a slightly more elegant way to hang those coils and I think you'll have a crowd around your car who will appreciate the fact that you took the path less travelled.

I'd personally be interested in hearing your progress and wish you luck!

I've pondered the same thought about a BMW V12 in a Pantera. I wouldn't do it to mine (too original), but would love to try it if I had a 2nd Pantera to turn into a 'modern' supercar. And as others have already said, the Pantera (and it's community) is one of the few cars that modifications are accepted, even encouraged. I was going to post those BMW V8 Pantera links too, but Denis beat me to it.

Can't wait for progress updates and more pics.

Thanks everyone for the welcome! It's good to know this crowd isn't rabidly opposed to mods such as this.

The coils will definitely not be hung from skyhooks in the final version . I've been combing the market for some nice looking coilpacks that will sit down flush on the valve covers, and I keep coming back to LSx coils. Not the nicest looking solution, but probably the best compromise. BTW the engine in the pic was done several years ago, and went into a fellow's 850CSi. Fully built bottom end with Ti rods, along with the ported heads, hot roller cams, SS valves and of course the ITB eye candy up top. I think his motor topped out well over $30K. Mine doesn't have the Ti rods, so it'll be "somewhat" less than that.

A couple of these motors have gone into Ultimas - Jay Esterer up in Canada was the first to put one in, then my builder built a very nice one for the Ultima owned by the guy that designed the "Guitar Hero" video game. There's probably more, but generally, it's not a very popular motor as it's horrendously expensive to build and modify because 1) it's a V12, and everything you buy has to be in 1.5x the quantity required for a V8, and 2) there are no aftermarket parts off the shelf for it, so that compounds the 1.5x factor to more like 3x. So a $500 eBay "deal" of a motor quickly turns into a $15K to $25K money pit. But.... at the end of the day, it does belong to that exclusive club of V12's, and it can be built a bit cheaper than a Ferrari or Lambo motor. And when (re)building it, it's also a great opportunity to correct some of that wonderful "German engineering" that isn't quite as wonderful as it's cracked up to be, once you get into these motors and see how they're really built.

But back to the Pantera..... the next step is to start searching for a project car. I suppose finding a 40 year old car without rust is a pipe dream, and if it did exist, it probably isn't going to come too cheaply?

I wonder if it would be feasible / better to lop the topsides off a rotted chassis, and graft them onto either a tube chassis, built from scratch, or a contemporary chassis such as those from Factory Five, or Race Car Replicas? I understand at least one tube chassis Pantera was built? (BTW, I realise this is drifting a bit outside the area of this engine subforum, so I'm going to post the same question over in the chassis subforum.)

Thanks again everyone,

John

you can check this one out on craigslist

http://losangeles.craigslist.o.../cto/2071317443.html

quote:

Originally posted by dean:
you can check this one out on craigslist

http://losangeles.craigslist.o.../cto/2071317443.html

Thanks...... that looks a bit rough, but there might be a project lurking in there! Although I think if I were the owner, I'd probably happily pay someone to haul it off. Hopefully that's not one of the Long & Newman bodies? It sorta looks like one of Fiberfab's creations from the 70's.

BTW, here is a table of Ford engine dimensions with the corresponding bimmer V12 dimensions at the bottom.

I've seen various versions of this floating around for the Ford motors, and the numbers can vary by a couple of inches either way, however the bimmer's figures are pretty solid. (And the height shown for the bimmer is before dry sumping. We've lost another 3.5" in height after dry sumping.

There's a bloke down here in Oz who has been advertising a Pantera race car for sale for a while. Looks a bit rough but it's intact and apparently has some new trim inside.

I'm going to have a look at it just this side of Christmas. It's LHD too from memory.

Drop me a line to rhayden@panteraaustralia.com and we can keep in touch. I'll take pics and have a good look over it when the time comes and can flick them to you.

Great project, having a couple of V12 Ferrari's in the garage, I've often wondered about a beemer V12 shoehorned into a Pantera.

quote:

Originally posted by Cribbj:I have a very nice BMW V12 motor that has been built up by one of the best BMW engine builders in the country.......and it should make between 475-550 HP @ 7000 to 7500 RPM..........So what do you think about putting this puppy in a Pantera?

Sounds like fun to me. What's the firing order? It would be a lot of fab work but I bet a set of 180 degree headers with a bunch of skinny little stepped primaries converging into a couple 6-1 merge collectors with pipes that exited centrally through the rear condensor grill would produce a good performing exhaust system with a very unique sound for that engine.

Best,
Kelly

Thanks Robert; I've emailed you and look forward to your reply.

Kelly, the firing order is the same as the "new" Ferrari V12 firing order that commenced with the 456M engine. But BMW number their cylinders backwards from Ferrari. Ferrari always start with the front right (when facing flywheel) as #1, then go sequentially back to the firewall for #6 (right rear), then horseshoe around so that #7 is also at the firewall (left rear), and #12 is the left front.

BMW on the other hand have the rearmost right as #1, then the frontmost right is #6, and the frontmost left is #7, and #12 is the rearmost left. A picture is always worth a 1000 words, so here's a diagram of the two:



I'll bet a bundle of snakes would look & sound awesome, but it sure would be a challenge to fit them in.

So, in fact, both engines sound very similar, with the Ferrari more raspy and cammed than the bimmer.

BTW, that's a gorgeous GTS you have. That pretty much defines the type of look I'm after if this motor goes into a Pantera body.

BTW, I just wanted to thank everyone for such a warm welcome here. I've been blown away over the friendly responses and great advice.

I really thought with this plan for a V12 Pantera I'd have to put on the flame suit and get ready for some hardline purists, but you folks have given the idea some positive support, and made me feel very welcome in your community, and I thank you.

John

quote:

I really thought with this plan for a V12 Pantera I'd have to put on the flame suit and get ready for some hardline purists, but you folks have given the idea some positive support, and made me feel very welcome in your community, and I thank you.

Well with a Italian coachwork, German transaxle, and American V8 already present and accounted for what's wrong with a little German, especially when it comes in the form of a V12?

quote:

I'll bet a bundle of snakes would look & sound awesome, but it sure would be a challenge to fit them in.

Ahh, common now. What's a little tube bending and welding after a V12 transplant? With that firing order, equal length may be a bit of a challenge; lot's of collector cross overs required for that arrangment.

quote:

BTW, that's a gorgeous GTS you have. That pretty much defines the type of look I'm after if this motor goes into a Pantera body.

Hey thanks for that John. I'm working on an all alloy solid roller Stroker Fontana engine, IR EFI induction, and mocking up a set of stainless 180s right now. So muched polished aluminum you'll need sun glasses when the deck lid is up.

Good luck with your project and keep us posted.

Best,
Kelly

quote:

Originally posted by Cribbj:
I've been combing the market for some nice looking coilpacks that will sit down flush on the valve covers, and I keep coming back to LSx coils. Not the nicest looking solution, but probably the best compromise.

Just a note. If you are looking at anything other than the stock electromotive coil assemblies I would look into a different ECU. I have looked into this before and even spoken with the guys at Electromotive. The TEC unit uses a hard coded coil firing/charging strategy that will not be compatible with LS type coil packs. It may work but you may have coil failures and other issues. I ran a TEC unit on my car for years and ended up going with a Haltech for the flexibility. The LS coils are some of the most powerful OEM coils on the market and if you dont like the way they look just do what GM did. Cover them up .

Very cool project though. Cant wait to see it come to fruition.

keep us updated with photos of the entire operation please

quote:

Originally posted by Panterror:

What's a little tube bending and welding after a V12 transplant? With that firing order, equal length may be a bit of a challenge; lot's of collector cross overs required for that arrangment.

Hehe, here's the '67 Ferrari 312 F1 car with its crossover system. Imagine trying this if the exhaust ports were outboard instead of inboard:


I prefer the way Gurney did his '67 Eagle, with the classic 3 into 1. This works pretty well for the 12's firing order:


And here's the way Jay Esterer did his bimmer motor for his V12 Ultima:

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraTurbo:
Just a note. If you are looking at anything other than the stock electromotive coil assemblies I would look into a different ECU. I have looked into this before and even spoken with the guys at Electromotive. The TEC unit uses a hard coded coil firing/charging strategy that will not be compatible with LS type coil packs. It may work but you may have coil failures and other issues. I ran a TEC unit on my car for years and ended up going with a Haltech for the flexibility. The LS coils are some of the most powerful OEM coils on the market and if you dont like the way they look just do what GM did. Cover them up .

Blaine thanks for the tip, however I'm not going to use those EM coils, nor the Electromotive ECU (to the great disappointment of my builder) I've had an AEM on my Supra since 2003 and have had very good success with it, so I'll be putting the V2 AEM on this engine.

Just wish there were some nicer looking smart coils out there than the LSx's The MSD's are good looking, but at over $120 a pop x 12, they would get ridiculously expensive very quickly. I'm a big fan of COP's, but with this SOHC motor, the location of the plug wells and their depth just doesn't permit a clean COP installation, so CNP it is.

I wish this thread wasn't so interesting !

Here are some photos of an exhaust system for a BMW V12 in an Ultima.

There's a chick named Michelle in the States that slipped a beemer dozen into a Datsun 240Z / Ferrari GTO recreation. She did a lovely job of it into such a tight space. I'll try and hunt down any pics that may be available of her exhaust just to see how she played it.

quote:

Here are some photos of an exhaust system for a BMW V12 in an Ultima.

That looks like Jack M.'s Ultima (of "Guitar Hero" fame) and it's a gorgeous overall build. If that's the same one, his motor was built by my builder.

Rob, Chelle's one of my V12 bimmer buds, and is an amazing gal. She even did a DIY dry sump on her motor very similar to Jay Esterer's, but that's too much braided hose for me. Bill Dailey's system mounts the pump to the dry sump pan, and does all the scavenging via internal passages. I'll get some good pics of it soon, once we do a high res photoshoot on the motor.

John

I'm not sure who owns the Ultima but the exhaust system was built by SPD, Inc. in Northern California.

Gonna resurrect this thread.

FWIW, spoke to Steve Wilkinson last week, He just bought the molds from Santiago for the V12

Cool, but what will it fit in?

While I was in California at a club event, we went to a homeowners garage to see the only V12 Detomaso engine in existence.

Here is another picture.

It will become a working engine just not in a car.

I came across it while I was moving.
Very Cool

WOW!

What an incredible find!

Has it ever run, or been tested?

That would be the ultimate Pantera, with a Detomaso V-12!