Pantera #9103 - GT5? Advice sought

#9103 would be the earliest GT5 I know of if it is a true factory GT5.

I suggest you a) take a knowledgable Pantera person with you or at least have it inspected by one. I would start by contacting Marino at Pantera East. His website and contact is here; Pantera East He may know the car or at least be able to put you in touch with a local that can inspect it for you.

b) Contact Peter Havlik (PM him on the board username 'Peter H') as he has put together the most extensive registry of the 9000 series cars and may have information to share.

c) If only import papers are available, double check it meets DOT requirements and can be titled and registered in your home state.

Good luck,

I just noticed it is for sale on Ebay;

Those are GP4 flares not GT5, I don't know if they are the steel or fiberglass versions. I also don't think the car came from the factory that way, but then again this is a very early 9000 series car and anything is possible from De Tomaso. It has an interesting mixture of old style door trim, with new style seats and burlwood dash. It also has US style impact bumpers and sidelights which would indicate it was built as a US destined car originally.

Looks a nice car, but aesthetically it needs wide rear wheels or better 'offset' to fill the flares. As long as this Pantera 'talks' to you and you are happy with it for what it is then go for it. But beware if you are buying it solely as a 'rare' factory car, as I don't think it is necessarily that. It has a number of non-factory upgrades, most notable the airsupply switch under the left side of the dash and pump in the front trunk.....air bags suspension up front maybe?

Thanks for the info. I contacted Pantera East but they haven't heard of the car. I agree the rims in the back need to be wider. I am going to see/drive the car this Sunday. I only live about 50 miles from St Pete.

Pete,

Thinking aloud if you up in that price range, maybe contact Jan (Does 200), he knows someone selling a black GP4.

Posted by Does 200;

quote:

I think he is in the $90K range, but one of the finest I have ever seen. The car probably has double that in the car (which is typical, getting about 1/2 on the sale of a good modification/restoration job). Maybe cash talks though for a lower price, I am not sure. If you like black, and modified Group 4 and don't mind the extra $, then you will be happy. Good modified show cars are in that range, so it depends what you want, essentially you get what you pay for.

If Jan says you will be happy, I'm sure it is an excellent car, his Pantera standards are some of the best.

quote:

Originally posted by Joules5:
Pete,

Thinking aloud if you up in that price range, maybe contact Jan (Does 200), he knows someone selling a black GP4.

http://www.finecars.cc/en/detail/car/15381/index.html?n...m_pi1%5BMODE%5D=make

It is a real GT5. I have 9203 which is a 1982. Thirty cars a year? Peter H, is that about right? It was probably imported from a Scandanvian country.

I can see the mods that have been made which seem to be minor: front bumper, wheels, intake, interior door panels. Not sure what that is in the front trunk - washer motor? And is that an alarm system under the dash at driver's left?

The car looks a little unused. That means money if you want to drive it. Much more if you want to drive it often and /or hard.

quote:

It is a real GT5. I have 9203 which is a 1982. Thirty cars a year? Peter H, is that about right? It was probably imported from a Scandanvian country.

I can see the mods that have been made which seem to be minor: front bumper, wheels, intake, interior door panels.

If my memory serves #9250 was the GT5 show car and based on that DT retrofitted some in progres cars like mine (#9178) and yours with GT5 body kits. Mine was in production destined to be a GTS when an order came in for a GT5 and it was 'updated' to the new GT5 look.

Rather than seeing 'mods' I see an amalgamation car, one of the very early 9000 series, probably built using leftover parts from the Ford era, which is most likely a GTS, with addition of GP4 flares. Those flares are most definitely GP4 style not GT5.

Here's a question for you; Did you car come with the US bumpers and sidelights from the factory or were they added this side of the pond for grey market 'compliance'?

quote:

It appears to be a GT5 from the pictures,

URL to listing is:

http://tinyurl.com/2tblue

Not to rain on the parade or anything, but if you are Pantera shopping and have been swayed by the rear panel GT 5 lettering, despite the flares being most certainly GRP 4, into believing the car is a GT5, you have more homework to do before you buy ANY car.

These cars are hot rodded by geniuses and by fools. You can NOT believe anything being factory about these cars despite what you see and what you are told. You must judge each car by its own merits and the documentation that is available.

I have said before, and say again - If you want to buy a Pantera wisely and minimize your regret factor, read everything you can find about Panteras. Go to the two websites listed below in my signature and read them front to back. Everything. Read the archives here and at the POCA forum. Seriously, the entire archives. Inspect every car you can find, whether for sale or not. Talk to owners, drive cars whenever possible. Go to Vegas Fun Rally and/or Monterey Concorso.

These are a very hard car to buy wisely. They will lure you with the FEVER and sucker you into buying NOW, rather than wisely.

If you do all this, you will know your car when you find it. It WILL talk to you - many of us have found this to be true.

Remember, each day brings you closer to finding YOUR Pantera.

Good luck,

Larry

Larry,
Thanks for the advice. I have been buying cars for a long time, but never a Pantera. I have spent many hours over the last two weeks researching and talking to people. I want a pantera, but you are right it will have to speak to me. I want something that I can drive frequently. I have been cruising the sites to see what mods people have done to their cars and I really don't like the stick on bumper at the front of this car, but I want to take a real close look at it, I will report my findings Sunday after I go look at it. You guys have a fantastic web site with lots of helpful information. I really liked the garage section. A little disappointed to see so many of them in a major repair status. I beleive that any car needs to be driven to be appreciated. I look forward to owning a piece of history soon.

Bruce

Bruce:

I will be curious to read your review of this car, now that you have seen it.

The owner describes the car as follows: "Series II C4 bodied Detomaso Pantera ... built on December 28 1978"

It is not advertised as a GT5, and I doubt very much it would be one if it was built in 1978. At best, it would have been converted to one by the factory - but why would it have aftermarket Gr4 flares? Much more likely, it is a GTS that had a GT5 air dam and Gr4 flares put on it by the owner.

The earliest GT5 I have on record is #9107, which is a 1980 belonging to Wally Baldyga in West Suffield, Connecticut, USA. In general, my records for this period are very thin (I have only found 15 cars built from 1978-1979), so if anyone knows of any Panteras built between 1977 and 1980 - please let me know.

The interior is irrelevant to the determination of whether it was a GTS or a GT5 because both were equipped the same. My guess is that the door panels are an owner modification, but then I have seen some atypical interiors that purportedly came from the factory.

I would also guess this is a US spec car because it has guages in English, square marker lights, and the DOT bumpers. Also "USA" is stamped on the certification plate.

I have never heard of a "Series II C4 bodied ... Pantera" before, and wonder if anyone else here on the PIBB can tell us if this is a designation actually used by the factory. My first reaction is to reject the possibility, but then I was recently humbled when I found out that DeTomaso actually offered Gr3 packages on 9000 series cars - not something I would have previously given any credibility to.

- Peter

Hello guys. I am the owner in question of this particular Pantera. I was directed to this site by another fellow car guy who said it was being discussed. Seems like a great place for information about the marque. I have had a good time browsing this afternoon. I must admit it is some eary reading about people talking about ones automobile...kinda like your dead. Have fun. David

Welcome David,

It is a shame you only found us now you are selling your car, we are not that bad a bunch! Please do answer any of the questions that have been posed, regarding your car. Did it come from the factory that way?

Julian. I have not sold anything yet, no worries. You are right about the site. Most are not worth the band width. This one is a wealth of information and mostly good people. Outside of the obvious the car is really pretty much the way it came from Belgium in 89. The original owner has passed on. The car came into the US and certified through Ohio. All the original documentation was lost years ago in an accident. It is a 2 owner car. I believe it was originally Red. The second owner a good friend of mine was the custodian since import. What you see is what arrived. It is what it is. The family built whatever you wanted in those days and records are at best..well non existant. Thank you for allowing me to share it with you, albiet from afar. I hope you enjoy it. I have. Oh, the Bruce who started all of this. Guy never showed, Gee what a suprise. But hey I found this place. David

After seeing the eBay ad, these are my thoughts. The US bumpers, side markers and door tag make me believe the car was built for the US market & imported in 1979 by Mr Eckart (in agreement with Peter).

So that leaves us to explain why the car was imported from Europe in 1989 as David believes to be true. One plausible explanation, it was returned to Europe prior to 1989, and brought back to the US again in 1989. Or the deal with Mr Eckart fell through, and the car was never imported in 1979.

The car most likely started life as a GTS, not a GT4. If it had been built as a GT4, I would expect it to still be wearing the 10 spoke Campy wheels, not the aftermarket wheels in the pictures. The steel flares are not factory, so I would guess the car was repainted when the flares were added.

David, the fit of the flares with the wheels is my biggest reservation just looking at the pictures in the ad. I would want to know if the flares were poorly done, or if the aftermarket wheels have the wrong off-sets, before I layed down my hard earned dollars.

cowboy from hell

early #9000 cars were GTS (no flares), i agree the interior has nothing to do if it is a gt5 or not because early 80 GTS cars had the GT5 interior. I am certain this car is a GTS and flares were put on it.

http://www.qv500.com/detomasoregistryindexpanteragts.php

look at 9000 series GTS

Welcome back Johnathan!

I must admit I hadn't looked at the GTS section on Ben's site and I certainly hadn't realized there were so many of GTS chassis interspersed with the later GT5 and GT5-S vin #'s.

In the late seventies (1978-1980) the factory has built several GTS with the small GTS front spoiler, but with the Group4 flares and the wide Campys.
My former car #9139 was such a car. Built in 1989 and first registered in spring 1980.
Pics you can see on Ben's site.

#9139 is a 1980 Pantera GTS Gruppo 3, owned at one time by Franz Krump (Si Targa), now owned by a Mr. Neumaerker from Austria. Franz describes the car as follows:

"1980 GTS Pantera
#9139 with factory Group 3 Package
The hottest car I ever had. They claimed 400 HP.
It had a high compression engine, improved valve train, 12 Liter oil pan,
Stronger oil pump and fantastic GIRLING Racing Brakes.
From 1st To 4th gear you could rev to 6500 and top speed was about 155 MPH
at 6250 in 5th with the short axle 4,22:1
After an accident at 20 mph, I repainted the Brown a Blue.
Sold this car in 1989 in Austria."

Franz also provided me with the following advice regarding the Gr3 option on late model cars:

"As you know, in the early seventies De Tomaso built Group 3 Panteras for private racedrivers. After the Ford aera, you could order all these special parts for your own street Pantera. You could order what you want, or the comlete so called "Group 3 Package". This contents a more powerful, high compression engine with improved valvetrain, 12 liter oilpan with stronger oilpump, strenghtened gearbox, Gr. 3 exhausts, Girling 4 piston racing brakes, different and lowered suspension sportseats and even a rollcage."

Thank you, Franz, for all the great information!

I discussed this car with Mike Drew and he believes these flares are "stock". The curves differ from the aftermarket versions.

Also the factory took stock-bodied cars and then cut them and installed the flares. If one had the opportunity to look under the fenders (and under the coating) you should see a seam.

Chuck

quote:

Originally posted by deeb:
... Thirty cars a year? Peter H, is that about right? ...

Assuming there were 426 Embo chassis cars produced between 1978 and 1990 (I'm not counting the Maggiora or 90 Si Panteras here), then that works out to a rough average of 33 cars per year.

cowboy. Cyber bullets are not required. The flares are Glass. The BBS wheels were on the car. Why that offset. I do not know. The original documents on the car were lost when the car was imported and going through EPA. The previous owner never got them back. A letter was written to EPA in 92 and they said they did not have the records. I suppose 18 years ago it was no big deal. As to why it took 10 years to make it to the States, no one knows. As I stated earlier it is what it is. David

quote:

I discussed this car with Mike Drew and he believes these flares are "stock". The curves differ from the aftermarket versions.

Also the factory took stock-bodied cars and then cut them and installed the flares. If one had the opportunity to look under the fenders (and under the coating) you should see a seam.

Still not so sure every Factory GP4 I've seen photo's of had flares similar to the reproduction ones. I'm more inclined to think they are a 'one off' aftermarket. Man I wish there werre more records available, sure save a lot of discussion and opinion here.

DT never 'blended' flares liek the car in this example, always riveted on, both GP4 (exposed rivets) and GT5 (hidden rivets) are this way starting with a stock body coach and cutting the fender wheel arch out.

quote:

Originally posted by Joules5:

quote:

I discussed this car with Mike Drew and he believes these flares are "stock". The curves differ from the aftermarket versions.

DT never 'blended' flares liek the car in this example, always riveted on, both GP4 (exposed rivets) and GT5 (hidden rivets) are this way starting with a stock body coach and cutting the fender wheel arch out.

I wouldn't say "never" at anything when it comes to DT. The flares --seen above-- on 9139 sure look like 'stock blended' flares. Anything and everything was possible during the later (cash crunch) years. Combined with the lack of factory records for the Ford era cars, it's no wonder the Pantera is looked at as a lovable mongrel.

Nice looking car Rocs.. Good luck with the sale.

quote:

I wouldn't say "never" at anything when it comes to DT. The flares --seen above-- on 9139 sure look like 'stock blended' flares.

You are absolutely correct, just shows I have a lot to learn still. In fact I feel somewhat stupid and humbled as George kindly pointed out to me in a PM that my GT5 being one of the very early ones has 'factory' blended flares. I always just assumed that was a modification by a previous owner.

Thanks George, once again you have demonstrated your rightful status as 'Master and Guru of all things Pantera'

There are no "Gurus" when it comes to Later "Pantera obscure". There are only those who can say, I have never seen that before, therefore it could not exist... The world of Pantera is not flat and will never be. Perhaps one of the most alluring or enduring traits about the marque. As someone earlier said "a lovable mongrel" I drove her this morning and it was wonderfull. If I sell her, I shall probably regret it. My opinion. David