180 header question

I remember a guy 25 years ago that had zoomies coming out of both sides of his Pantera. He had a metal fabricator make up covers to go over the original exhaust opening. The covers had clips and screws to secure them in place so he could revert back any time he wanted. Too bad I don't have a picture of it.

I do, however, have a picture of the car a friend of mine bought from Dennis Daley. The car had 180 exhaust coming out of the opening that used to hold the a/c condenser. The original exhaust openning was covered and bondoed over. Here's a picture of it in Vegas when Dennis still owned it.




With the opening covered, something looks like it's missing. It's better and cleaner, though, than leaving the openning uncovered.

It sort of looks like the Lamborghini Murcielago rear end except the Murci is flatter and wider.



Some aftermarket body kit gave the Murci a better, racier look. It looks badda$$. I haven't found anybody that makes anything similar for the Pantera.



My opinion, yours may vary.

Aloha and good luck on your quest.

I did not think the car looked finished until I closed up the old openings

#2

#3

The blackout paint on the bottom looks good and and a great idea.

Awesome!

White bunperless cars end is SMOOTH!! I dig that.

But on the subject of 180's. My stroker 377, with some horspower in it, how would it react to 180's? The engine is shop-built, and now has Hall headers, and Mindtrain exhaust. This setup should free up a few horses against the original pieces, but what more could the 180's be expected to give (what wendor has the best)? I guess the engine folks built it to suit the exhaust, so would a change nesessitate changes to the engines to make the most of it? Remember have read here somewhere that the 180's gives the extra punch only high in the revrange?

Here's a site I ran across when I was researching header design and 180 degree exhaust benefits Headers 101 ( Header Basics - A Guide To Understanding ). It's a general explanation that is very informative. It you want details on 180 headers and header design, I would read the writings of David Vizard.

One thing to remember in any discussion about 180s.

If you love the current sound of your Cleveland, please realize it will change drastically with 180s.

If you have heard, driven in, a car with 180s, then you realize this.

If you are mostly interested in the look and the sound is of no concern, then proceed as you wish.

Otherwise, seek out a car so equipped so you know what you are getting yourself into.

And of course, your choice of mufflers will also have an input to the final sound.

I personally do not prefer the sound of the 180s when compared to a good GTS Ansa system.

Larry (with a GTS Ansa system on 2511)

Larry's right. They are a totally different sound and it's up to preferrence.
My 180's are a pain to work around but I enjoy the look and sound.
You won't see a performance difference over mind-train exhaust.
Here is a taste of the sound of 180's compared to conventional headers. The 180's car passes at 2:13. Turn up the volume
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raL5NQAgCHc

Ansa mufflers, btw, cost me 35rwhp on my previous stroked cat.
Will

Also, the sound varies largely between exiting straight out the back or out the sides.
Will

quote:

The 180's car passes at 2:13. Turn up the volume
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raL5NQAgCHc

Sweet music from the 8-cylinder Cleveland symphony playing through those 180 horns!

The sound of that yellow car with the 180's is what I really would love to have! Any 180's for sale out there?

THe biggest single problem with 180s for me is, I love the sound so much that in competition, I always stayed in the throttle a little too long, making getting thru the next turn difficult. And the radiated heat off all those pipes will boil or burn the paint on any panel within about 6". So you need a heat shield.

180s at speed or at WOT is a symphony for sure. The 180s sound relatively quite at idle, kinda boring which I like. It allows you to cruise around town without worry of the sound police. The idle actually sounds a little more cammy with the tips pointing towards the ground (when they exit through the original exhaust opennings.

Mindtrain actually sells a crossover tube to balance out the pulses of their exhaust. It makes the idle quieter like the 180s and still have the wild CANAM sound at WOT with the added benefit of balancing the exhaust.

Good luck again on your quest. I am sure you will enjoy whatever you end up with.

Aloha

Question…… when switching to 180 headers….What have you guys done with the area where the mufflers used to exit, besides the obvious (welding / body work / paint). Any pictures / any ideas. Does it look OK with the areas empty? Any pics with the muff area empty...

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And the radiated heat off all those pipes will boil or burn the paint on any panel within about 6". So you need a heat shield.

I have many miles on mine without heat damage. They are ceramic coated witout any shield

quote:

Question…… when switching to 180 headers….What have you guys done with the area where the mufflers used to exit, besides the obvious (welding / body work / paint). Any pictures / any ideas. Does it look OK with the areas empty? Any pics with the muff area empty...

Not much you can do other than filling with new metal. It's on the "to do" list....

here ya go....

That thing you mentioned there, my brother in law mentioned on my car too. But while he was here on vacation, we worked on the car, and i had the dampers off, cleaned for surfase rust, and had them resprayed. The rubber mounts in the rear was dry and hard (no craks or so) so I went looking for new ones. As I was let into my local carparts stores storage to look for what I might need, I found a pair of NEW rubber, matching exact to the ones I had that was from a Mercedes van (think it was a van). The only difference is that in the original part it is a bit thinner in the middle, but these was same thikness all the way. Still hear the vibration/resonance, but not so intrusive as it was.

Will find the partsnumber for the rubber and post it here. Most likely also cheaper than a DeTomaso part.

Does anyone have 180 that exit in the stock locations?

Mine will but I haven't finished running the pipes yet.

Not yet ... but the thought has been crossing my mind. My feeling is probably the 180's dumping into a muffler then exiting out of the side of the muffler and exiting out thru the stock openings? this may put a damper or drasticly increase performance ..with extensive testing.

Couple things to consider .. the lambos and ferraris all have air grills in the deck lid and some sort of air grills on the back of the tail light section. .. my guess is to allow hot air to exit, enter and circulate. Closing up the rear air grill solid I think would be a mistake and adding grills to the top of the rear deck would be asset to the longetivity and performance of the motor.

I;m considering 180's but cant decide whos to buy .. they seem to all say I have to deliver the car.

Ron

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
Couple things to consider .. the lambos and ferraris all have air grills in the deck lid and some sort of air grills on the back of the tail light section. .. my guess is to allow hot air to exit, enter and circulate. Closing up the rear air grill solid I think would be a mistake and adding grills to the top of the rear deck would be asset to the longetivity and performance of the motor.

I;m considering 180's but cant decide whos to buy .. they seem to all say I have to deliver the car.

Ron

Ferraris and Lambos have rear grill openings to exhaust air from the side airboxes for the radiator/oil coolers. The new ones have glass engine covers with little vents on the side and rear of the glass area. The rear grill opening on the Pantera is an air intake for the rear-mounted condenser. The only air grill opening for the pantera is through grill (if you still use them) above the motor air cleaner. If you really want more airflow to the motor, remove the rear quarter windows and install air scoops (elephant ears) from Hall.

The only benefit I see of dumping the exhaust through the stock openings is to retain the rear-mounted condenser and retain a small trunk (as you would have to cut it in half and only use the rear portion because of pipe placement. Otherwise, I would go straight back as Mark has on his car.

Attached are some scans from my old Hall Pantera Catalog from 1992. Sorry for the poor quality but it will at least show you the exhaust detail with the tips exiting to the stock opening. Notice that you will have to cut hole to exit the cab through the stock location.



I don't have a pick of the exhaust exiting the stock openning. This scan from the Hall catalog shows it somewhat and gives you an idea.



Good luck again with your project.

Aloha

My point was I tend to think we should add Grills, openings in order to allow MORE air to circulate thru the Engine compartment.

The elephant ears I think are for cold air to the Intake of the engine ... with or without an A/C condensor the rear grill is useless with the pipes going thru it ... the engine cover is in a ZERO pressure zone another useless grill.

Take a look at the Japanese group's cars .. they add a lot of ventilation to the engine compartment ... I think their on the right track ... all these modifications would ADD :
1. fresh air to the engine.
2. Cooler air to the compartment and aid in keeping the 180 headers cooler.
3. Take away some of the hot air so the drivers compartment is cooler.

In the spring 1995 issue of POCA there is a cover photo and centerfold photo of Mike Harpers black Group4 with the 180 pipes sticking out the stock opening at an angle. Really looks badass, and I bet acceleration sound would be unreal for pesky Lambos on the sides. Wonder what ever happened to Mike and his car?

PI Motorsports PowerPack Mufflers which have been opened, gutted, closed, and Silver Jet Hot Ceramic.

Different view shows the true color.

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If you really want more airflow to the motor, remove the rear quarter windows and install air scoops (elephant ears) from Hall.

On the aspect of elephant ears, side window removal and decklid grills....

Many a time it has been shown the engine compartment is a positive pressure zone;
1. With rear quarter windows removed air exits out of the side windows not in!
2. People have run with the decklid unlatched and (without gas shocks) the lid is reported to sit about an inch or two above closed at high speed, balancing the airflow over it with that escaping the engine bay.
3. Air is drawn up into the engine bay from the underside of the car (seen how dirty it gets in there!) and the stock air cleaner had a hose to draw air from beneath the car.
4. Even the elephant ears are not out of the boudary layer sufficiently to be any use until +150 mph

I have a fiberglass decklid to install on #7024. a) it has NACA ducts on the shoulders (these were already installed but I was looking to do similar anyway). I also considered NACA ducts in the rear of the rocker panels. NACA ducts disturb the boundary layer and create a low pressure zone. b) I will be cutting the decklid with 45 degree chevron pattern (so as not to cut through the structural ribbing) to provide open air flow from the engine compartment.

Julian

My side scoops are feeding an oil cooler but the area underneath is closed off not just by the belly pan but by the oil cooler duct work.

All this mute as the oil cooler has it's own fan. I am thinking the other side to add a fan to run air down between the right side gas tank and headers.

I had my 180's exit out the sides until this summer. Saves from having to fill the old muffler holes but sounds like a VW at idle. Yes, hard to believe, but just the angle of the pipe outwards chages the sound dramatically.
There is no resonance with 180's.
I've owned both Hall and precision Proformance headers. Precisions are better (tighter) and allow for the use of deck shocks. They needed tweaking though. It's always better to have them custom built to your car, but I didn't have this option here in the North, but I also see that as being way more expensive.
Will

Love the Kirk Evans wing, RRS.

How does the 3rd brakelight do? Is your radio antenna in the wing as well? Is the decklid stock?

What do the mufflers do to 180 the sound?

Has anyone ever seen or done a "8 into 1" collector

" Do you have any comments about the effectiveness of the the engine breather system plumbed into the collectors .. Is there some little venturi or something in there that causes it to draw ..No issues with backfires"

" The crankcase evacuation systems reduce crankcase pressure increases piston ring seal, reduced intake charge contamination, and fewer oil leaks. They have been track and dyno-tested to produce significant increases in engine performance."

I personally have used these in a drag race application ... I had to increase the screen in the breathers because it sucked too much oil from the motor .. as you can see the fire arestors screwed on to the nipple at the header to prevent backfire.

Ron

My 180's are a bit different than most. They were custom fabricated on a 351c mockup used for offshore racing boats then the remaining tubing was fabricated to the 180's by a fellow Pantera owner who built dragsters.

Gutting the mufflers coupled with the twin outlets of each give it a real nice sound. The engine was being built when AZ eliminated emissions testing for classic cars so changes were made to make it somewhat of a race engine. Estimate about 550 - 575 hp with a Barry Grant 850 cfm carb.

3rd brakelight is fantastic. Don't use an antenna so it stays down. I run a 10 disc remote CD player or can plug my MP3 into the auxiliary of the radio and use that.

There is a dual nitrous setup which will never be used - for show only.

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Looking at your photo posts. The shots posted on the 17th are the 180's from Precision Proformance and those in post from the 23rd are the Halls, based on what you said about the decklid shocks fitting or not?

Do you have any comments about the effectiveness of the the engine breather system plumbed into the collectors on the Hall (?) system? Is there some little venturi or something in there that causes it to draw? No issues with backfires or anything?

And once again, you say that the 2000 rpm moan disappears? 180's look great, sound great and the cabin moan goes away too? Those Precision Proformance pipe are looking pretty attractive.

I converted from Hall 180's to the Precision 180's and straight out the back. I should have welded on the fittings for the crankcase ventilation but never did. Ron explained the benefits already.
Yes, the 2200 rpm drone is gone and replaced with a quieter, even sound until it reaches 3000, then it starts to scream.
I just had it out an hour ago and my ears are still ringing.
Will