2 turbo or not 2 turbo

Hi Todd, here is what I have read about turbos.
You will probably need to chane cams to one with a slightly differant grind. From what I have read, forced induction cam timing is a little differant. It will run with the cam you have, it will just run better with one designed for turbo.
Your compresion ratio should be ok as long as you don't get carried away with the boost number. If you plan on only running five to ten pounds you should be ok, provided you have your carb modified. THe biggest danger of turbo or supercharging is increasing the amount of air without giving a corresponding increase in fuel. This leans an engine out making it run hotter and before you know it something burns up. What is cool about a turbo is you can make an engine that is mostly normal until you get your foot into it. Then you have a racing monster come to life.
Finaly intercooling only produces more power when the engine is warm. THe idea is that colder air is denser so more of it will fit in the cylinder. If your engine is cold, you will notice no differance at all in power. IN other word, if you are going to drag race with an engine that has only been running for a few seconds, an intercooler is a total waste. But if you are on a road course, you will pick up significant, usefull power.
I am no expert. But this is what I think. Unless you are racing as a hobby, you don't need power adders for just driving to the AW. They look nice, but are expensive.

Todd, sounds like a good motor, why change a thing? You can make reliable & drivable 450 to 480 ft/lbs & 500 bhp with your current motor, naturally aspirated.

What are your intended uses of the car?

I'll answer your questions quickly:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Reid:

Question: Can I get the same or maybe more BHP with more reliability. smoother, quieter, less motor noise. No
can I run 9.7 to 1 or do I need to drop that? Limits you to about 7 psi boost
Can I run a blow thro carb, and do they work well? Yes, and Yes. Requires a box designed by Paxton, sits on top of the engine, will poke through the engine screen, the carb mounts inside the box
Do I have to run a intercooler, or is it just a good ideal. without an intercooler the amount of boost you can dial in will again be limited
My goal is a good sounding,and running pantera without giving up the kick in the - - - I have now. Honestly, what has you thinking you want to run a turbo?

Also to correct something DeTom wrote, intercoolers are needed because compressing air also heats the air. Some guy named Charles made some law or something!

In my opinion, the Pantera engine compartment is not "turbo friendly". I like turbos, when part of an engineered design, they are absolutely a great way to make power. But the engine must be made turbo friendly, and the engine compartment & chassis must also be designed to acomodate all the gear associated with turbos.

Please see my comments in the topic at the following link;

http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5650045562/m/3480091393

Your friend on the DTBB, George

Well change the cam is the hole reason I was thinking of turbos. I built the motor 4 years ago and around the track I forget the motor is back there, But on road trips. or just a drive down the block it's a bit on the loud side. I do not want to give up any power I have now. I was kind of hoping for a bit more. and at the same time maybe just take the noise /rumbal down just a bit. Now I dont want a tame kitty. just maybe not as much.

Todd,

I'll share my thoughts on keeping the Pantera quiet:

Better sound deadening material in the bulkhead & under the carpeting will help. There is a company advertising in Hemmings that sells sound & heat insulating kits, they have a picture of a Pantera in their add. An air filter with snorkels like the oem air filter assembly quiets things down (half the noise is intake roar, it's not all exhaust). Quieter mufflers obviously will help, so will wrapping the headers with heat insulating tape. Double pane rear window glass would help, although it would be expensive.

A turbo sucking air makes a hell of a racket, so it is definitely not a method for noise reduction.

I realize an enclosed air filter assembly & quieter mufflers will restrict the power of your motor. So perhaps 2 air filter assemblies & 2 muffler assemblies, one for street and one for the track, would be a solution for you.

I understand your position. My motor is currently 100% stock. I use the car for traveling. The noise level is already barely tolerable. I'm wanting to up the motor's performance, but I'm not wanting to up the noise level. I'm pondering how far I can go with stock Ansas. The exhaust system Fred Terry built for his Pantera looks interesting.

The motorcycle industry is capable of producing exhausts that are quiet yet allow the motor to make plenty of power, I don't understand why this technology hasn't been applied to autos, at least in the aftermarket.

Those are just the thoughts of this old beggar, I wish I had the magic answer for both of us.

Your friend on the DTBB, George

George, these will make your Pantera quieter without losing performance.
Of course you may need to keep a sharp eye on the mirror

Todd I understand what you want. You want an engine that for most of the time is mild mannered, but when you put your foot in it, it screams! You are headed in the right direction, but to really get what you are after you need to incorporate fuel injection, electronic distributer and most important, a computer to run it all. This is a very big modification to get modern performance from what was an old tech cars. Guys have done it, but it cost a lot in time and money.

Good Deal. I have a msd distributor and 6al box. so can one run a injection off a 5.0 mustang on a 9.0 deck block (maybe with a block kit)or do I need to get out my check book? Also the plan is to replum the water and build 2 new gas tanks, one in frount of each rear tire and low in the car. Working on dule glass for rear now. and the car is dynomated big time. Most of the noise I hear is the rockers singing. what got me on this rant is my installers 240sx with a skyline 6 banger turbo. 420 hp and he drives it evey day. And yes the pantera is faster AND I want to keep it that way.

Whoever you buy your fuel injection from probably also sells chips for it. Make sure you mention you want it mapped for turbo though. I would also keep the turbos down low and next to the block. When you run the air out from them, you can fashion your own water to air intercoolers just under the screen and into a plenum chamber. Sounds like you will have a winner there Todd. Ready to kick some rice.

Todd,

You can utilize Ford's EEC-IV engine management system for the 351C. You need to get a distributor from a computer controlled 460, and have fuel injector bungs welded into the intake manifold of your choice, and have bungs welded into your headers for the 02 sensors. The rest is plumbing and splicing. It's actually not that difficult to do.

Michael

Rapier that's a good one!

If you're truly interested in fuel injection check out Quality Roadsters Mass Air Flow system:

http://www.qualityroadsters.com/

Todd, if the "clack" of the valve train is the biggest noise, I suggest a hydraulic roller cam, to replace your solid lifter roller. Clevelands tend to have a certain amount of valve train noise, even with hydraulic cams.

George

Todd,

Something came to mind today, I thought I would pass it on to you.

aluminum valve covers help muffle the valve train clack, if you're running tin valve covers, a set of alloy valve covers should help a bit. That's why the auto makers always installed alloy valve covers on the solid lifter mtors.

George

Yep. got the detomaso covers. Also How do you like my home made bracing. Next is a belly pan.

Hey Todd, what is that little tray thing sitting on top of the tranny??? Is it like somekind of oil cooler or something????

Very nice Todd, the bracing addresses one of the 2 major points of flex in the chassis. You've been taking Goran's writing to heart, good thing! what are your attachment points at the top?

Good looking engine bay.

your friend on the DTBB, George

Hi Todd,

Nice bracing bars. I bet they will make a big difference to the torsional rigidity.
You say your car is a bit noisy and rumbley. I can see why, your transaxle is rigidly mounted to your camber bar! This will make for a very harsh car indeed. This is common practise in racing cars, but not road cars.
Some time ago I rode in a 1978 Pantera GTS with tired engine mount rubbers. This was enough for one of the cylinder heads to just touch the inner wheel house (squared off style engine compartment) which made the entire car resonate so badly, that at certain RPM's we could not hear each other talk in the car.
Did you install that plate, or was it on the car when you bought it?

Regards, Johnny

two of the bolts that hold the deck lid on also hold a bracket that I made. Thats where the mounting points are. and yes I made the motor plate for the car, as I put the cat together from the ground up. however the plate came later and did not change the sound that much IF any at all. It was Loud way before that.
Just looking for that new car ride with lots of power and not wanting to buy a 430. As for the bracing, What a diffarance a bar can make.(A+)
PS dont get me wrong I love driving the Pantera just as she is. Todd