335 series engines used in Pantera (429/460/514)?

One issue is the ZF. The engines are a little longer and typically they use an adapter plate for the bellhousing which adds 1.5". They move the ZF back and the axles are at a little bit of an angle.

Gary

quote:

Originally posted by catman351:
Hi:
Can anyone please give me their feedback on the use of the 385 series engine on their Pantera as it pertains to: 1) Horsepower 514 crate motor = 600 bhp & 600 ft/lbs 2) Handling handle with care! 3) Difficulty in bolting up to Pantera bring lots of money 4) the Pantera's ability to take the extra weight 514 crate motor = 540 lbs, cleveland = 550 lbs 5) recommending induction (FI? Carb?) for $7K 514 crate motor has no carburetor. Price of carb = $400, price of FI = $3K to $6K 6) Exhaust issues bring more money 7)Cost. how fast do you want to go? Inquiring minds want to know!!! Cal, #2428.

your friend on the DTBB, George

Hey George is that a typo on the motor weights?? A 514 weighs less than a Cleveland??

Good morning DeTom,

The 514 crate motor is equipped with alloy heads, intake & water pump.

The 351C weight is the standard weight equipped with iron heads, intake & water pump.

your friend on the DTBB, George

Hmmm. So does that mean that the alloy Cleveland being made in Australia will be even lighter?? If so is it a big number like say 200 pounds or is it like ony ten pounds?????????

DeTom, my weight conscious friend,

SJ Performance has not announced a weight for their alloy block that I can remember, ahem, emphasis on the word remember.

The 351W alloy block sold by Ford Racing weighs 92 pounds. The iron Cleveland block weighs in at 170 pounds. It would be safe to conservatively estimate SJ Performance's alloy Cleveland block will save about 70 pounds.

An alloy block, heads, intake & water pump should save in the neighborhood of 225 pounds.

The topic is 385 swaps.

heavy vibes from your friend on the DTBB, George

Well we are trying to talk him out of it aren't we??? I mean putting that big old motor in there is a lot of work and it will waddle around corners. Now if what he wants is a straight line highway cruiseer, sounds like just the ticket. Provided you want to get the old cutting torch out just to wedge her in. A shoe horn may be appropriate.

My original point was that the 514 crate motor weighs approximately the same as the all iron 351C, therefore there is no weight penalty.

Although the 385 engine swap is not my cup of tea, I respect catman's interest in this alternative, especially if he promises me a ride!

your friend on the DTBB, George

I am not meaning to get on your nerves George, but I have to know. Isn't setting the transmission back so that the Ujoints are always deflected a bad thing?? Especialy in a high torque application? Wouldn't it be better to move the engine forward and leave the tranny where it is?? At least as far as wear and tear on ujoints???

That's right my friend.

U-joints like to only move in one plane at a time. That is why constant velocity joints are used on front drive cars where the wheels are turning left & right and moving up & down at the same time. Extreme angles & dual angles create additional heat in the u-joint which will lead to premature failure.

If you look carefully, you'll see that the Pantera half shafts actually do angle forward a small amount already. The 385 conversion moves the tranny backwards a bit, and increases that angle, which will shorten the life of the u-joints. Speed cost money, that's part of the price of a 385 conversion.

That small forward angle of the half shafts is why there are CV axles available as an upgrade for the Pantera. I also believe CV joints have less internal friction, and therefore transmit more bhp to the rear wheels than u-joints.

your stiff jointed friend on the DTBB, George

Thanks George. I suppose that CV joints would be a lot easier than cutting the firewall and making the passenger compartment even smaller.

I think the price for the CV axle kit is $1500, but you have to change the axle flanges in the ZF for another $500. That's a 2k upgrade.

Michael

Yeah but Mike, how much would it cost to cut the firewall, relocate the motor mounts and weld in a new firewall and completely fab a whole new interior and move the seats forward and make the footwells deeper, and on and on to move the engine forward three inches?? I mean that sounds kind of pricey to me.

In actual practice DeTom the tranny gets shoved back & the increased angle of the half shafts is just accepted as is, u-joints and all.

Of course, I know you like to stir the pot.

Got to think outside of the box my friend! Perhaps one of the vendors could create a body upgrade whereby the car is cut in half just behind the rear bulkhead and a 12 inch wide section of sheet metal is welded in all around (left, right, top & bottom), creating the "stretch Pantera". Afterwards, any motor would fit! V12, V10 you name it. Chrysler power, BMW power, Mercedes power, hey, you could install the same powerplant as the McLaren! dude! The answer for all potential engine modifications, the stretch Pantera! Plenty of room for a supercharger belt drive. Maybe even room enough for a Cummins diesel swap! Bigger is better, huh? What do you think DeTom? Would you be the first in line for that one? Why, I bet you could even eliminate the hump in the interior! Maybe it could become a dimple! Kirk Evans could market the bulkhead dimple kit. More room for the elbows, a place to stick your used chewing gum, stuff like that! Plenty of room for heat & sound insulation too, for those that want that luxury car quiet cabin ride. Or, plenty of room for the biggest oil cooler known to man. Yeah, that's it, the stretch Pantera!

Conversions could be 1/2 price for white Panteras!

George

Moving the engine forward creates all types of problems. Moving it back is not desireable but done if they have to.

Gary

DeTom,

If it were my Pantera, I'd go for the CV axle upgrade. If I were to move my firewall at all, it would be back, not forward!

George,

I think if the Pantera was stretched 17 5/8 inches, a V16 Rolls Royce Merlin engine from a P51 Mustang could be fitted! Imagine that.

Michael

George they already make a stretch Pantera. It is called a Buggati Veryon. It is being made by Volkswagon in France. But when you strech a Pantera it starts to look funny. Look it up on the net and I bet they have pics. It just looks, I dunno, odd to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyboman:
DeTom,

If it were my Pantera, I'd go for the CV axle upgrade. If I were to move my firewall at all, it would be back, not forward!

George,

I think if the Pantera was stretched 17 5/8 inches, a V16 Rolls Royce Merlin engine from a P51 Mustang could be fitted! Imagine that.

Michael

Micheal I like the way you think!! That would be a smooth highway cruising car.

Oh, and BTW everybody, just to stir things up just a little more, the BOSS 429 was a Hemi. Good luck finding one though.

Aha!

I got you on this one DeTom!

"Hemi" refers to the shape of the combustion chamber, not the location of the spark plugs. The Boss 429 combustion chamber had small "squish" areas flanking the valves, it was not a true hemi! It was a semi-hemi!

Cleveland open chamber heads have hemi-spherical combustion chambers. Those are true Hemis!

George

For real George or are you just joshing me??? I knew the Cleveland had canted valves, but I didn't know the head shape was half a sphere. You wouldn't be kidding me now would you??????

FOR REAL!

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
FOR REAL!

WOW!! I have to get one of those stickers now that says "It's a Hemi". How come we don't have domed pistons to take advantage of this situation???

Oh BTW George, this winter I am going to make a modification that should double my engines power.

Actually DeTom, there are pop up pistons for the 351C with open chamber heads. They are not a pure "dome" shape because of the need for valve clearance.

However, lets dispell a myth. Hemi combustion chambers are not a universally superior design. They make more torque on some engines and less on others. I've also been told that alcohol burning motors work better with hemi heads in some instances. One factor that determines whether or not a particular combustion chamber shape makes more or less power is the geometry of the intake & exhaust ports. On the Cleveland, open chamber heads make less torque than closed chamber heads, that's why ALL racing heads for the 351C have closed chambers. If open chambers were superior, the racing heads would have been designed differently.

That's not to say that will be the case with every motor.

your friend on the DTBB, George

Well luckly I got both kind of heads now. I have the closed chamber that came with my car and the open chamber that came with my new engine. You didn't ask how I was gonna double my power. It is a special technique only known to us old time bench racers. I am going to adjust my throttle cable so that it opens the butterflies all the way instead of only half way. That is a very cheap hop up.