I wanna see you do the curves, from a distance.
The 427 Cobras are who started this, I don't drive my car on damp road surfaces stuff.
It's like driving on ice. Those cars spin off of the road on a highway entrance ramp in the dry because of the engine torque.
Curves? No, those days are gone, but who needs them anyway? This is like a Can-Am car now. Ever notice how many big name drivers got killed or twisted in them. Of course the Pantera is twice the weight of them. It will only be half as lethal.
Have fun.
quote:
Strictly strait line stuff now. No more curves for that baby.
I kept thinking about what you said. That couldn't be further from the truth. My brother did this (only more extreme) with hios Cobra. He leaves all the small block hi-revers in the dust. His stroker has turned into a MONSTER track car.
Gary
quote:Those cars spin off of the road on a highway entrance ramp in the dry because of the engine torque.
That's like saying less power is better.
Yes. I used to watch Dick Smith on the track with his car.
Of course he was a national "A" champ.
It definately is a finese thing. Even backing off of the throttle breaks them loose.
Like I said. I watch from a distance.
Seriously it will be fun, but will be a handful.
Of course he was a national "A" champ.
It definately is a finese thing. Even backing off of the throttle breaks them loose.
Like I said. I watch from a distance.
Seriously it will be fun, but will be a handful.
Thanks!
G
G
You guys are probably getting tired of hearing about this thing but I am bored right now. I didn't go up to get it because he is going to do a few more things before he runs it again. He is having a fuel issue which is causing it to lean out. The headers are too small and he is ordering a larger set. He is working with the dyno people. Aparently it is reading too low and they are re-calibrating. Anyway, here is a video:
http://www.tmeyerinc.com/434dyno.MOV
Gary
http://www.tmeyerinc.com/434dyno.MOV
Gary
Geeze Gary, you think we are all out cruising all the time?? Nope, we like hearing about what is going on. Fill us in. Heck you have the only big block Cleveland on the planet and you would think we wouldn't want to hear about it????
I mean gee whiz, I was even considering writting a tech article on how to repack a muffler, you are dyno testing a monster motor, which do you think we would be more interested in????
I mean gee whiz, I was even considering writting a tech article on how to repack a muffler, you are dyno testing a monster motor, which do you think we would be more interested in????
Some people chose not to dyno their engine before putting it in a car. I can tell you it's a good idea. We are likely to make a couple changes and it's good that it's out of the car. In fact the rear seal was leaking. Wouldn't you hate to put it in to find that and have to pull it back out!
My engine builder is hinting he thinks this needs more cam. He has pointed out "RE" (resedent experts) from other forums pointing out the need for more cam. (I have never been a big fan of "RE"'s. Often their goal is not to help but to show everyone how much they know....Many of which don't even own a car, just an internet connection).
I have been resistant to a larger cam. This get's power at low rpm, and caries it out through the entire rpm band. Every indication is that this engine is an extrmely mild mannered enging with 500hp/530tq and then some. I know we can cam it to 675hp but I have seen the graphs. Lot less power down low and I know from other high hp experiences, the cammed up engine will be a lot less fun on the road.
Ps, I don't think it's really a big block. I know Ford technically does not have the big block small block designation but in generalities I think of the FE and 385 serries as the big engines.
Gary
I have been resistant to a larger cam. This get's power at low rpm, and caries it out through the entire rpm band. Every indication is that this engine is an extrmely mild mannered enging with 500hp/530tq and then some. I know we can cam it to 675hp but I have seen the graphs. Lot less power down low and I know from other high hp experiences, the cammed up engine will be a lot less fun on the road.
Ps, I don't think it's really a big block. I know Ford technically does not have the big block small block designation but in generalities I think of the FE and 385 serries as the big engines.
Gary
Hi Gary,
I'm bummed, I can't watch your video here at work, my computer doesn't have the apple video software & won't let me load it either (the wonderful world of corporate IT politics). So I have to wait until this evening.
I wanted to comment about the power band of your motor. It doesn't stretch out quite as far as I would have it, BUT so what, if it makes you happy, that is all that matters. Drive it & decide afterwards if you need more.
Engine builders like to see big peak BHP numbers, it impresses people. It would provide for more impressive advertising too. These things are OK for Tim Meyer, after all he is a business man & likes to put food on the table. But you hit the nail on the head, the most average torque over the operating range of the motor is what will move your vehicle out. Peak bhp is never an important number, in any type of use, street, racing, you name it. Unfortunately, the public has been conditioned to think in terms of peak bhp. I like that broad flat torque curve, it should be very usable on the street.
Stick to your guns my friend. I know you will. I know how stubborn you are!
Your friend on the DTBB
I'm bummed, I can't watch your video here at work, my computer doesn't have the apple video software & won't let me load it either (the wonderful world of corporate IT politics). So I have to wait until this evening.
I wanted to comment about the power band of your motor. It doesn't stretch out quite as far as I would have it, BUT so what, if it makes you happy, that is all that matters. Drive it & decide afterwards if you need more.
Engine builders like to see big peak BHP numbers, it impresses people. It would provide for more impressive advertising too. These things are OK for Tim Meyer, after all he is a business man & likes to put food on the table. But you hit the nail on the head, the most average torque over the operating range of the motor is what will move your vehicle out. Peak bhp is never an important number, in any type of use, street, racing, you name it. Unfortunately, the public has been conditioned to think in terms of peak bhp. I like that broad flat torque curve, it should be very usable on the street.
Stick to your guns my friend. I know you will. I know how stubborn you are!
Your friend on the DTBB
It occurs to me some readers may be asking themselves, if peak bhp isn't important what is?
The answer is, acceleration & braking. Thats what performance vehicles do, they accelerate & brake.
George
The answer is, acceleration & braking. Thats what performance vehicles do, they accelerate & brake.
George
I couldn't watch it for a while either. I did not want to put quick time on my computer. I know better. Finally I found one that I was getting ready to re-build and threw it on there.
George, I am on one hand wanting to stick to my guns and on the other not wanting to close my mind to other reasonable possibilities.
Gary
George, I am on one hand wanting to stick to my guns and on the other not wanting to close my mind to other reasonable possibilities.
Gary
quote:Originally posted by george pence:
It occurs to me some readers may be asking themselves, if peak bhp isn't important what is?
The answer is, acceleration & braking. Thats what performance vehicles do, they accelerate & brake.
George
Well George, the other thing is having power from 2K to 5.5K can be a lot more usefull then having a lot more power at 3.5K-6.5K. On top of that engines that are not strung to the ragged edge make much better "drivers". The more extreme the cam is, the worse it idles, and the more tempremental things like mixture become. Every little temperature change changes the fuel need.
G
If you like that cam leave it alone.
The thing is a monster now. Who needs more?
People just want to see a big number on the graph. It's like watching the speedometer go to 200mph. It isn't thier engine it's yours. You are the footing the bill, you are the boss.
The thing is a monster now. Who needs more?
People just want to see a big number on the graph. It's like watching the speedometer go to 200mph. It isn't thier engine it's yours. You are the footing the bill, you are the boss.
Well, there are two options, try it as is & make your mind up afterwards, OR shoot for a little higher powerband, like 2000 to 6000 rpm. Certainly nothing more than that. Everything you write always mentions you don't want a powerband that is hard to live with. So don't let them talk you into too much.
Its lunch time on the left coast guys, later!
We have such huge intake, heads, etc. I keep thinking I can always cam it up latter if I get the bug. Besides, I know the engine will come out again durring the restoration.
G
G
quote:Originally posted by comp2:
Some people chose not to dyno their engine before putting it in a car. I can tell you it's a good idea. We are likely to make a couple changes and it's good that it's out of the car. In fact the rear seal was leaking. Wouldn't you hate to put it in to find that and have to pull it back out!
Funny you should mention that. I had a guy put my engine in. When the front seal started to leak, I just drove the car to his shop and said fix it.
quote:I don't think it's really a big block. I know Ford technically does not have the big block small block designation but in generalities I think of the FE and 385 serries as the big engines.
Well Gary, I think if you check and see, your block is darn near the size and weight of a good old FE. Remember you had to find a big block housing for it. I am sticking to my worlds only cleveland big block story. Especialy with that stump pulling torque.
Detom, I won't argue with you there. I always remember looking at the engines in Mustangs. If you have 2 side by side one with Winsor and one with Cleveland, the Winsdsor does look small.
Exactly Gary. I have been kind of daydreaming about your motor. With that flat a torque curve, over that wide of a band, I would put real wide ratios in that puppy so when you shift, you get a rpm drop of like three grand but it still pulls like a rocket. That way you aren't just rowing through the gears all the time, but being pressed back in your seat between shifts, enjoying the sensation as your face distorts from the g-forces. Bearly able to breath until you start to top out at 240 MPH. THAT, would be the ride of a lifetime.
I am sitting here running cams in desk top dyno. I see no improvement in any cam below 4500rpm. More lift duration improves things above 4500rpm and takes from everything below 4500 rpm. We could use more lift though. I think the heads are capable of .7 so .65 could help.
Gary
Gary
Gary more lift means more stress due to momentum, means shorter life. Remember that the ZF is only good to 500 HP and 500 FT LBS. Please do not be like these guys who build up 750 HP engines and then cry when their valve seats get beat to death or their ZF takes a powder on them. The thing that is bad about these guys is they go around all the time bragging about how much bigger theirs is than yours. Then when they throw a rod through the side of their blocks they want tea and sympathy. It is your choice Gary, but I think you had the right plane to start with and you are beginning to talk yourself into a future headache.
What are your compression and cam specs again? Flat or roller? Hydraulic
or solid?
Dan Jones
or solid?
Dan Jones
Cam is crane 529721
276/284 seat to seat
214/222 .050
.562/.586 lift
111 center
Hyd Roller
Keith Black, Zero Deck, 38cc dish pistons with center quench
10.5:1 compresion
CHI 3v heads
4.03 Bore
4.25 stroke
Demon 750 carb
CHI intake
Intake is more not really a torqer intake but we are not exactly low on torque.
Gary
276/284 seat to seat
214/222 .050
.562/.586 lift
111 center
Hyd Roller
Keith Black, Zero Deck, 38cc dish pistons with center quench
10.5:1 compresion
CHI 3v heads
4.03 Bore
4.25 stroke
Demon 750 carb
CHI intake
Intake is more not really a torqer intake but we are not exactly low on torque.
Gary
I think you need more duration. That's less cam than what I ran in a
10:1 Aussie 2V headed 351C with single plane carb and Holley 735. In
my Pantera, that engine would pull 5th gear from just off idle. You've
got a bunch more cubes and a much longer stroke that just begs for more
overlap.
I drove a friend's Superformance Cobra replica with 418W equipped with
AFR 205 heads and Victor Jr intake and a custom Comp hydraulic roller
cam with 244 degrees duration, 0.6" lift and 110 LSA. It was daily
driver easy to drive. Granted it's a light weight Cobra replica but
you could pull away form a dead stop in third gear. That engine made
556 HP on the engine dyno at 5700-5800 RPM. Wih 30 degrees more duration
and fewer cubes than your engine, it was still not a high strung engine.
In fact, the owner switched to the next larger cam.
That Crane is a tiny cam for the cubes and I'd be a little concerned with
pinging once your chambers get carboned up.
If you go to a cam with larger duration, you really don't need the extra
exhaust duration (relative to the intake). On a drag race engine, that
helps scavenging at higher RPM but it hurts you at lower RPM (not good
for fuel economy either). Plus you need a really good exhaust system to
see the high RPM scavenging benefit. The exhaust valve opens about 2/3
of the way down on the power stroke. The pressure is from 200 to 300 PSI.
>90% of all the exhaust gas is *gone* before the piston reaches BDC on the
power stroke. Since the exhaust stroke is doing nothing by then, why
increase its duration at the expense of overlap? Better to stay closer to
single pattern and increase the total duration.
Just adding lift to the cam you have won't make a whole lot of difference.
Dan Jones
10:1 Aussie 2V headed 351C with single plane carb and Holley 735. In
my Pantera, that engine would pull 5th gear from just off idle. You've
got a bunch more cubes and a much longer stroke that just begs for more
overlap.
I drove a friend's Superformance Cobra replica with 418W equipped with
AFR 205 heads and Victor Jr intake and a custom Comp hydraulic roller
cam with 244 degrees duration, 0.6" lift and 110 LSA. It was daily
driver easy to drive. Granted it's a light weight Cobra replica but
you could pull away form a dead stop in third gear. That engine made
556 HP on the engine dyno at 5700-5800 RPM. Wih 30 degrees more duration
and fewer cubes than your engine, it was still not a high strung engine.
In fact, the owner switched to the next larger cam.
That Crane is a tiny cam for the cubes and I'd be a little concerned with
pinging once your chambers get carboned up.
If you go to a cam with larger duration, you really don't need the extra
exhaust duration (relative to the intake). On a drag race engine, that
helps scavenging at higher RPM but it hurts you at lower RPM (not good
for fuel economy either). Plus you need a really good exhaust system to
see the high RPM scavenging benefit. The exhaust valve opens about 2/3
of the way down on the power stroke. The pressure is from 200 to 300 PSI.
>90% of all the exhaust gas is *gone* before the piston reaches BDC on the
power stroke. Since the exhaust stroke is doing nothing by then, why
increase its duration at the expense of overlap? Better to stay closer to
single pattern and increase the total duration.
Just adding lift to the cam you have won't make a whole lot of difference.
Dan Jones
I have looked at more duration. All it does is shift the power band to a higher rpm and that's where the extra hp comes from. I am looking at the whole picture not just max hp figures. The longer duration cam weakens lower rpm power (which is where I wil be 99% of the time) and narrows the rpm range it makes power. I think I will stick with this cam.
There is more power to be made from this engine. When he get's apropriate headers and get's his fuel issue solved (and the dyno calibrated). What we get on the next run. His dyno was under rating the power output. He has been working with the dyno company to get it re-calibrated.
There is more power to be made from this engine. When he get's apropriate headers and get's his fuel issue solved (and the dyno calibrated). What we get on the next run. His dyno was under rating the power output. He has been working with the dyno company to get it re-calibrated.
quote:Originally posted by comp2:
I have looked at more duration. All it does is shift the power band to a higher rpm and that's where the extra hp comes from. I am looking at the whole picture not just max hp figures. The longer duration cam weakens lower rpm power (which is where I wil be 99% of the time) and narrows the rpm range it makes power. I think I will stick with this cam.
There is more power to be made from this engine. When he get's apropriate headers and get's his fuel issue solved (and the dyno calibrated). What we get on the next run. His dyno was under rating the power output. He has been working with the dyno company to get it re-calibrated.
That's more like it Gary. I admire a man who stands by the power of his personal convictions. The guys at the Pantera events will be asking you to tow their broken cars home behind your Pantera. With that much torque you can accomodate two or three of them in a chain train behind your car.
These two remarks did confuse me.
I am avoiding rpm so overlap is not my first choice but having more lift from the same cam is the only choice which did not sacrafice low end numbers. It only increased high end numbers. I doubt I will do that anyway. Valves are too damn hard to reach anyway. The less valve problems I have the better.
Gary
quote:Originally posted by Daniel_Jones:
You've
got a bunch more cubes and a much longer stroke that just begs for more
overlap..................................
.........................................
Since the exhaust stroke is doing nothing by then, why
increase its duration at the expense of overlap?
I am avoiding rpm so overlap is not my first choice but having more lift from the same cam is the only choice which did not sacrafice low end numbers. It only increased high end numbers. I doubt I will do that anyway. Valves are too damn hard to reach anyway. The less valve problems I have the better.
Gary
The first comment is referring to total overlap and the second is referring
to the exhaust overlap relative to intake. Different things. Did you try
to optimize the lobe separation angle? What's the program predict for
cranking compression?
Dan
to the exhaust overlap relative to intake. Different things. Did you try
to optimize the lobe separation angle? What's the program predict for
cranking compression?
Dan
I played with it some. I will play with it more.
Gary
Gary
In regards to what Dan said about the short duration of the camshaft, in my hunt for camshaft profiles one of the factory cam grinder recommendations that I read was not to use a "torque cam" in an engine with more then 9:1 compression ratio.
The reason given was that the cam had the potential of producing destructive detonation and the cylinder could produce more cylinder pressure then the components could handle structurally.
I think that this camshaft falls into that torque cam catagory.
Damn me for reading everything. Sorry.
The reason given was that the cam had the potential of producing destructive detonation and the cylinder could produce more cylinder pressure then the components could handle structurally.
I think that this camshaft falls into that torque cam catagory.
Damn me for reading everything. Sorry.
quote:
I think that this camshaft falls into that torque cam catagory.
Damn me for reading everything. Sorry.
I gues we'll just have to test that theory then
Gary
All the best, I wanna see this monster run!