ARCHITETTURA DELLA CARROZZERIA #29

That rare magazine has a 17-pg article including the only known wind tunnel tests of an early Pantera. The car was compared in wind drag and front/rear lift figures with a GT-40 and a Boss Mustang. The designed-by-eye street Pantera was very close to the pure-racing GT-40 in lift and drag. There are crash test photos, build details and more. Included is a centerfold of an engineering drawing of the Pantera, with numbers etc. Careful viewing reveals that European engineering dwgs are done differently than SAE dwgs.

The rest of the hard-bound magazine has ads in Italian and is on far less performance oriented vehicles, except the Bora, and it's 9 pg article is similar but less detailed.

How is it even factually possible that a GT40 with a top speed of 210 mph CAN be even remotely COMPARED to a DeTomaso Pantera which experiences front-end float at approx 135 mph as being, Quote " The designed-by-eye street Pantera was very close to the pure-racing GT-40 in lift and drag".End of quote.


That is PURE B.S.!!!

JFB - Are these available somewhere?

Thanks -

Purchased a hard cover copy for about $30.00 with shipping from Amazon based on the superior intellect of Bosswrench.

quote:

Originally posted by speedunlimited:
How is it even factually possible that a GT40 with a top speed of 210 mph CAN be even remotely COMPARED to a DeTomaso Pantera which experiences front-end float at approx 135 mph as being, Quote " The designed-by-eye street Pantera was very close to the pure-racing GT-40 in lift and drag".End of quote.


That is PURE B.S.!!!

What makes you think that the GT40 doesn't have lift? What cartoon world do you live in?

It's very simple. You 'model' after another design.

It's the same thing that Ferrari did with 'modelling' after the 911's to get the nose angle right?

No copyrighted materials back then. Steal and steal intellectual properties as fast as you can and run with it.

There are volumes of revisions on the GT40's. The original design was a brick. It took two if not three years to get it to stop running into walls.

There is a whole subchapter where Wyer had his own GT40 nose design that was 'exclusive' just for him, not for Shelby's use. Then there are Shelby's versions by Phil Remington and on and on. Don't call the '68s GT40's. They are 'Gulf's!

The ironic thing about the Pantera is that the "epa crash front bumper' actually improves the air flow design at the expense though of adding some drag.

No DT is right there in the thick of it. Ghia, DT owning Ghia, Ford buying Ghia. 'Someone' there actually knew what they were doing all the time. Amazing when it comes down to it really that any of this really ever happened?

Not bad at all for cars one of which was never intended as a race car and one that was?

It's all 'tit for tat' now. It all comes down to just a 'class struggle' thing but that's what big factory racing is about to a large extent anyway? It was then at least? Who is smarter, who is better, who has the better 'gene' pool?


If you want to believe that the boys in the kitchen at the country club could never run a gourmet kitchen' that is your prerogative.

Right now though, just don't ask for extra mayo on your BLT at the club 'cause...it ain't really mayo? Heh, heh, heh!

Actually though Ferrari had it right. Disgraced by being beaten by a 'Ford' with an engine from an 'industrial irrigation device'. The shame, the shame.



In the end, I'm ok with the black smoke from my Webers in my working class motorized Italian 'folksvagon' 'go cart'.

Make sure your windshield wiper blades are good. You're gonna need them to work right...at least for a little bit until I'm out of view?

Learned along time ago whilst dining at the Country Club to bring my own bottle of Grey Poupon, along with holding my pinkie in the air whilst sipping my afternoon tea.

In regards to stealing design/s, being that the GT40s were produced in the mid 60s & that the first Panteras were sold in 1971, the Pantera designers had 7 YEARS to STEAL the aerodynamics of the GT40s!...

So WHY did the Pantera designers ONLY build a car capable of a top speed, approximately 70mphs BELOW the top speed of a GT40??!!

A car designer/s could go back to 1955 & study the aerodynamics of a 300SL Mercedes Benz Gullwing to help with "wind cheating" improvements...

In 1955 a Gullwing had a top speed of 150mph! in a HEAVIER car with LESS horsepower( in-line 6 cylinder) than a Pantera!!!...fast forward 16 YEARS to 1971 & the Pantera's top speed is the same ( if one were to believe the HYPE)...

So with a 16 years of designs from a myriad of high performance cars that the Pantera's designers could "Steal" from...WHY isn't it FASTER than a Gullwing built in 1955???!!!

Doug...DON'T drink the Kool Aid, especially if Jim Jones is handing it out!

I'm sure COST had lots to do with it? Just look at all the parts sourced from other cars. Cost big Money to go fast.

quote:

Originally posted by Cuvee:
I'm sure COST had lots to do with it? Just look at all the parts sourced from other cars. Cost big Money to go fast.

Hello Cuvee; Before a car/s can go FAST ( parts), a car FIRST & FOREMOST...MUST be aerodynamic!!!...this is achieved through tested design.

You can place a 1,000 horsepower into a brick, that brick is NOT going to cut air!

Mark.

The Pantera top speed is/was limited by engine redline and gearing (both 5th and the Ring and Pinion ratio).

That's why they sell 3.77 R&Ps and .6xx gear sets.

The aero will definitely affect how fast you can get to top RPM, and maybe if you have enough power to get there at all, but I believe an only slightly "up-tuned" 351C could get to 5800 RPM in 5th with stock gearing...

Maybe some of the racers can chime in.


It was not designed for ultimate top speed.


In fact, if you look at the Pantera marketing video, they intended that housewives and afro-haired stockbrokers could drive it around.

Rocky

quote:

Originally posted by speedunlimited:...
You can place a 1,000 horsepower into a brick,...

I would like to have this BRICK

quote:

Originally posted by Rocky:
Mark.

Better check your math. 1955 to 1971 isn't 56 years.

Anyway. The Panteratop speed is/was limited by engine redline and gearing

It was not designed for ultimate top speed.

Rocky

Hello Rocky; Thanks!..Yes I corrected my error in math...I blame the California school system!!! & 1970s drugs!!!

quote:

Originally posted by JFB #05177:

quote:

Originally posted by speedunlimited:...
You can place a 1,000 horsepower into a brick,...

I would like to have this BRICK

HEY JFB!!!...You could have that "brick"...just sell ALL your body parts on the black market ( Doug could use a new liver ) & bring an armored car to a Christie's Auction with about $20,000,000.00+++ in it

Check your PMs!

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

quote:

Originally posted by speedunlimited:
Learned along time ago whilst dining at the Country Club to bring my own bottle of Grey Poupon, along with holding my pinkie in the air whilst sipping my afternoon tea.

In regards to stealing design/s, being that the GT40s were produced in the mid 60s & that the first Panteras were sold in 1971, the Pantera designers had 7 YEARS to STEAL the aerodynamics of the GT40s!...

So WHY did the Pantera designers ONLY build a car capable of a top speed, approximately 70mphs BELOW the top speed of a GT40??!!

A car designer/s could go back to 1955 & study the aerodynamics of a 300SL Mercedes Benz Gullwing to help with "wind cheating" improvements...

In 1955 a Gullwing had a top speed of 150mph! in a HEAVIER car with LESS horsepower( in-line 6 cylinder) than a Pantera!!!...fast forward 16 YEARS to 1971 & the Pantera's top speed is the same ( if one were to believe the HYPE)...

So with a 16 years of designs from a myriad of high performance cars that the Pantera's designers could "Steal" from...WHY isn't it FASTER than a Gullwing built in 1955???!!!

Doug...DON'T drink the Kool Aid, especially if Jim Jones is handing it out!

I'll let you review the Kool Aid. Don't put too many sugar cubes in it ok?


I don't understand what this "nose out of joint" sudo-debate is about? What are you getting LSD flashbacks?

The Pantera is a FORD product, waranteed by Ford for the US market.

First off, why does anyone need a STREET car that goes 200 mph for street use in the US?

Second the GT40 is and always was a RACE car intended FOR RACING and winning AT ANY COST. Financed directly by Henry Ford exclusively for that purpose.

So what's the problem? If you don't like the Pantera, stop bitching about it, dump it like MTS did and leave us all the f... alone and go jerk off all over your freakin' Ferrari's?

Very simple. Go away. It was WAY better here when you were gone.

Doug; Suggest you buy looser fitting panties, so they are NOT soo easily gotten into a bunch!...
There is no one here on P.I....MORE opinionated than YOU!!!, & the way you convey your disapproval of my post/s is by issuing instructions to me to fornicate myself & ejaculate on my ferraris??!!

A person would have to dive to the bottom of the Marianas Trench to reach insulting depths LOWER than you have achieved!!!

So now you speak for ALL of PI members with your following statement?!...Quote "leave us all the f... alone and go jerk off all over your freakin' Ferrari's?" end of quote.

Didn't realize you were elected the spokesperson for the entire collective group of PI members?!

Get OFF your High Horse!!!.. & your self-aggrandising, trumpeter esque comments!!! ...Mark

rec'd a copy today. pretty disappointing, not any new info that is available else where

Fellas, this is ridiculous, stop it. Please.

I got a quick look at the contents, and I think it's awesome.

The book had exploded views, and production line photos that I have never seen before.

I was pretty impressed by the contents of the book. If you are a mid-level "Panterophile" like I am - if you can turn up a copy of this for your coffee table, you won't be disappointed.

YMMV......

Rocky

JFB.... Thanks for letting me taking a quick look at your issue. It's now on my "wish list" (at the right price).

quote:

Originally posted by George P:
Fellas, this is ridiculous, stop it. Please.

from hearing others talk about how rare and elusive this publication was, my expectations were high...but I had seen/read all that was in the publication.

Just my opinion

He was talking about me and Mark, not the magazine.

JFB, thank you for sharing a historical anecdote about our favorite topic: Panteras.

As a group, our history is important. Data is gathered, shared, new information sometimes refutes the old, and a new thread goes into the garment.

Why Ford and DeTomaso made various sales, production, engineering and marketing choices should be less about debate, and more about how it came to be. The F car pictured - and basically any car from the Enzo/Lampredi/Columbo/Dallara era - is revered for its contribution to history AT THE TIME.

The Pantera was a magnificent achievement. There is virtually zero chance of repeat. It was born as it was, spent infancy as it did, came to market as it did, and the best automotive, aerodynamic, engineering and marketing minds did what they did - in period - dealing with that world.

Flaws? Yeah, just like people are making right this second. No one's immune from idiocy. Watch a Presidential debate or ask your wife for confirmation.

This is a forum dedicated to the magnificent experiment that is the Pantera, flaws and greatness combined. (And with that, I'm going to go see if I have any of that Modenese Red Wine I hid back a few months ago. Probably ain't perfect either, but I plan to be a lenient critic!)

Thanks again JFB for sharing that interesting sliver of history with us.

How does one "share" when they have a publication like this?

as I stated, I have seen the photos, charts and drawings that are in this article piece meal, even phrasing of the text.

But from a historical point, it was interesting in reading in the format of it being a "scoop" news story of that time.

as Rocky stated, all mid-level "Panterophile"s should at least have the oppertunity to see.

JFB,

I'm not sure of what copywrite applies here, but on another forum, members share parts and service manuals for chainsaws on request. They do not store them online, but there is a 'request' thread. You post what you need, and usually within a half hour someone will send you an email with the file in it.

Just an idea...

maybe George will comment on whether that is legal.

Disclaimer: I am NOT a lawyer.
My understanding of such things is, if you are NOT selling copies of someone else's work, you are within your rights to make yourself a copy, and to share it with others. With the expectation that they too will not be making money selling it. The reason some of you have seen the data before is exactly because of this; only one (1.0) abbreviated tunnel test on a Pantera was ever done or at least publicised. Further, the magazine in question has been defunct for over 30 yrs, their copywrite is unregistered anywhere today, the owners may be deceased as well, and in any event, it was for Italy (Turin), not U.S.

My fascination with the article is that the lift/drag figures for the Pantera were sooo close to the GT-40, knowing that neither car was designed in a wind tunnel and both were designed for different end uses. The Pantera was a back-of-the-envelope effort hurriedly done by a single talented individual, while Ford's earlier racer was as carefully designed as a large group of pro engineers could make it. Note some of Ford's top brass believed that using spoilers or wings indicated to the general public that the car's basic design was flawed! It took refusals to drive the early GT-40 flat-out by development drivers until the car's dangerous nose-lift problem was resolved. Then they got around to the equally upsetting tail-lift.

Finally, those wind tunnel results are only truly accurate for low & mid-range air speeds, as the results were 'factored' for higher velocities. 150 mph wind tunnels did not exist at the time even for military airplanes and are still rare 45 years later. Factored aero results are common today in many fields. Long conversations with Pantera owner Dr Andy Wortmann who runs an aero lab (with gov't & commercial contracts) in So-Cal pointed this out to me decades ago.

I for one do not have the article and I wouldn't mind someone who does scanning it page by page and posting it.

Perhaps there could be a "History" section created on this forum where all previous articles could be stored as reference documents for anyone to log into and review.

If I could pitch that, it would be helpful for anyone, new authors, auction houses, and a bunch more that I can't even think of at the moment to accurately research and quote previous articles?

PI does have a "Historical" section
http://www.panterainternationa...historical_docs.html

There are no articles like this in it. In reviewing it, there is almost nothing of value in it?
Nothing to call a "research library" at all that I see?