Back on the “Soap Box” !

I understand your frustration but we have only ourselves to blame. We tend to look at the price tag rather than the "made in" tag, thus with two items being equal, we go with the cheaper one. We Americans want what we can get best for our dollar.

I for one can tell you that going over seas means big profit. I work for a rather large comany that was ready to manufacture in China, but when it came down to the non-disclosure agreement on the process the Chinese government made it clear that they would retain the rights to reproduce our process, the deal was off and jobs stayed in the USA.

I will pay more for US products when I can find them. I have found that most of the products that I have had from China are of poor quality and workmanship and do not last.If I had infants or toddlers I would be very nervous with them using products with potential safety issues

I think we get what we pay for.
(Low cost = Low quality) .

A story that was related to me at a training session at work.
As you know all of the American auto companies are building vehicles in China. GM was coming out with a small car for that market I believe it was called the "QQ" to be sold for $8400.
Just prior to its launch another automaker came out with a car called the "Cherie", for $6400.
Yo and behold it was identical to the QQ, I mean identical to the QQ.
GM took the competing auto company to the Chinese court system. The judges who were hearing the case looked at the two cars and decidied that the two cars "dont look the same to me" BOOM down came the gavel.
The Chinese government has a major stake in all companies that build and do business in that country. Thats how they were able to get the plans for the QQ and let the other car manufactuer build it.
Nice huh??
Jeff

Unless you voted for Ross Perot, you have no room to complain. I can complain because I did vote for him, even though everyone said I was throwing my vote away. He was the last politician to run for president, that wasn't bought and paid for by globalists special interests. If you vote for a repub or a dem you are throwing away your vote. The lesser of two evils is STILL evil. So you just pipe down and take your medicine and struggle through the worst depression in the history of the world and remember you could have done something about it when it wasn't too late. Too late was anytime after 1992.

This is an issue I considered carefully when choosing garments and contract printers for Rever Clothing.

In the end, we chose shirts proudly made in downtown Los Angeles...and we pay through the nose for them, but they are soft, fabulous shirts.

Our printer is in LA as well, and says all the big jobs he used to do for Red Bull, etc. have all gone to China. Now he just gets the rush jobs that would take too long to get from oversees.

I could shave 30-50% by going to China for product, but I am hoping "made in America" still means something. Unfortunately it means "more expensive" but I have my fingers crossed that I can always keep production local, even when I expand into different products.

I know it is dangerous to let personal causes dictate how I do business, but this issue was important to me. And I can tell it is important to many of you. Is it important to enough people to make it the right decision? We will see.

R.

Do I remember correctly about a company that made aluminum heads for Clevelands being copied by a Chinese manufacturer and sold back to the US?

This all reminds me of a multi level marketing scheme. If I remember the semantics it's called 'free enterprise' (sic)
Do you know that Walmart sends roughly 20% of the US GNP to Japan. Free trade agreements have taken away any duties and tarifs which makes those products competitive. Beleive me those Hondas assembled in America do little else but support assembly line jobs here, contrarily to US manufacturers. In the process it's killing millions of domestic jobs. I'm not defending some of the crap produced by the Big3. Today they are just as good. Always remember you get what you pay for, the quality of many offshore products are inferior to those made at home. Clothing is an example, remember when getting one of you uncle's shirt was a treat. Look at offshore auto parts; rotors used to last a long time now the cheap one either rust or warp at the 1st power stop you do, offshore toys with lead paint, to name a few. How the hell do you decide to put melamine in milk to make it whiter. Money makes the world go round, sorry BIG money makes the world go round = lobbyists. At the same time our parents had much less than we did and we have many people and companies picking our wallets (there were no cell phones, microwaves, computers, coulour tv's, iPods, wine refrigerators, cable, satelite, private school, daycare, restaurant meals several times a week 50 years ago and there was only 1 phone in the house and it was bolted to the wall. Mom was at home and she cooked meals with real local ingredients. the 50's was all about manufacturing, the 90's were about buying products from large scale producers and shipping the products half way around the globe. Call Dell help and you'll call India. Domestic manufacturing jobs supports 5-10 jobs directly or indirectly in your community. The middle class is getting squeezed out of existence, yet it supports the economy. the poor don't pay any taxes (let's say little) and those who make lot's of money have accountants to make sure they don't pay any taxes. In time world's average salaries should stabilise. That assemblyline worker in Japan or Shri- Lanka or India was working for a $1 a day and now is earning $5 a day, in turn they are now wanting more. There are 2 ways to make more profits sell more or cut costs and CEO are making multi million dollars for what, cutting jobs,
My 401K is now in the dump, still I'd rather live in North America.

Denis

I see over and over people talking about what 4 post lift to purchase on the PIBB. No one wants to buy the Backyard Buddy because of cost and I just shake my head. Guys, this thing is made in America -- all of it, and there is no comparison to the Chinese lifts. Plus, Backyard Buddy has the best lift and lock mechanism out there -- very important in earthquake land. Some sellers say theirs is made in the USA, but if the lifts are $2500 or less, they are not; ask yourself, how could they be? I put my money where my mouth is and bought American with the Backyard Buddy, and I do not regret it at all. The best 4 post lift out there for the money, I liked it so much I bought another one.

One of the rules in the contracting business is US products have to be 51% US made ... I try my best to buy US and if not we make it our selves .. I;m in a Industrial Park in New York where there are about 80 or so businesses and we all manufacturer just about everything from camera lenses, train parts, weapons, HVAC products, cabinets, nuts and bolts, street decals, toys, etc... our association does its best to keep in in the Park ... but its not easy.

Bottom line we have the people in the US, we have the resourses ..but the politicians got a taste of that Latin ASS down in south america and sold us out for a little Cervesa. We can out produce the rest of the world, but not when the politicians sells you down the river. Dont fool yourself companys like CARRIER Airconditioning Products is having MAJOR issues manufactuering in MEXICO .. the mexicans dont come to work, leave early, and quality control is shit ... Carrier is moving back into the USA ... keep the faith and encourage your children that quality, quantity and intergrity is in a US made product.

I was in a WalMart the other day and I looked around and wondered what percentage of the crap on the shelves was stuff people actually NEEDED. I think it's a pretty small number. Until we get over our "need" to consume like crack-addicts and change our cars, fashions and electronics just because the new ones are shinier or have two extra "features", we're doomed. Also, so few people are willing to make the tough choice between saving for and having a well-made "lifetime" quality product in a few years when they can buy a cheaper product (made off-shore, of course) RIGHT NOW. I'm not preaching anything here because I'm as guilty as anyone in this. I will need to change because the shit-storm of the oncoming recession will leave me no choice. We all need to try to find ways of buying local — if it's even possible any more. Try going one week without buying or consuming ANYTHING made outside of North America. I'm not sure it's even possible, even if you spend the week in hospital!

quote:

I was in a WalMart

Wells there's the first mistake, what are you even doing in Wally World Man!

My wife brought home an interesting DVD with Ex-store Managers blowing the whistle on how Walmart affects the community and their blatent policies and strategies to drive out the small shops and any competition. I try not to shop there based upon that and the way they treat their employees, minimum wage and no benefits. It's mostly sweat shop goods and the Walton Bros. are what like the third or fourth richest in the World.

BUt I'm as much a hypocryt as anyone else and that is why I say "try not shop there". My son is following in my footseteps and is an avid AC/DC fan. I couldn't believe AC/DC cut a sole supplier deal with Walmart, in the end we gave in and my wife went and purchased the new album.

Julian, Thats the same attitude I have, my wife thinks Im crazy for not wanting to shop at Wally World, but she shops at other stores to keep from supporting the Walton family in support of me. I too was in the prediciment and went in to get the AC/DC cd.
Jeff

If I remember my ancient history correctly, G. Brooks cut an exclusive deal with Wally World, and I don't think he's been heard from since.

I agree with ever one we need to buy American as much as possible, and with the economy in the crapper, its tuff! Trying to save a buck is a priority with most families. So staying away from stores like Wally World is hard to do!
On a side note...lets not forget we all bought Italian at one time!

quote:

Originally posted by Joules5:
...what are you even doing in Wally World Man!

Where else can you buy oil at 10 pm??? Sure, I could plan ahead, but like I said "I'm as guilty as anyone"...

I tend to agree about NOT shopping there, but for me it's ALSO because it's a non-Canadian retailer that has displaced many Canadian ones. Still, every now and then one must compromise one's integrity in the name of getting the job done.

This link is not pertaining to Wal-Mart, but relevant to the topic as a whole:

http://www.storyofstuff.com/index.html

Sheesh, Mark, you beat me to posting the Story of Stuff Link - I gotta move faster.

One thought we should also keep in mind is that when we buy the cheap stuff, not only do we end up having to replace it when it breaks, but also we're damaging our local environment when we throw out all of the junk we buy.

Here's a link to another short by the same folks that did the Story of Stuff (Free Range Studios) this one parodies a Garth song and 'Wally World'

Friends with Low Wages

Well, I'm off to buff my Italian car with the logo based on the Argentinian flag, German transmission, American motor, and (If they weren't already replaced) British fans (considering some of the random electrical challenges I have, I'm sure there are some remnants of Lucas "POD" technology in there) ...

quote:

Originally posted by Russ D:
I'm sure there are some remnants of Lucas "POD" technology in there ...

Your reminded me of this cool badge I saw on a car in Monterey...

I'm not here to pick a fight with anyone. I'm not here to support any political position or party. I am just one vote when it comes down to it and that is all I am worth in our society.

The term "Joe the plumber" is in frequent use as of recent days. Since there is a US Presidential election campaign going on I often watch with equal interest and sometimes pure disgust.

My thought about "Joe" is simply who is it that represents your interests Joe? You are just American labor. I am just American labor.

It seems that for some time the interests of bankers and independent investors have been the interests of preference here in the US. Certainly not the interests of American labor.

To me, when it comes down to it, we are almost all labor of sorts. If you don't own the company, even if you are management, you are still labor.

The time to eat American labor alive has not just come, it appeared quite a while ago. Maybe when Regan fired all of the air traffic controllers, I don't know just when it came in vogue exactly. But I don't mean to be political here. I mentioned Regan merely as a road marker.

We all need jobs, but just not any job. High paying jobs that produce high quality products. I am often surprized to hear that so many Americans are just realizing that now. We all can't be bankers folks. Some of us have to produce the goods.

High quality labor here is not part of the problem, it's part of the solution.

The bankers have had their run. Perhaps it is time for the pendulum to swing back and the American people will once again look for and feel proud once again to read the label, MADE IN THE USA.

I for one understand and appreciate exactly what that label means. Hopefully others will also before it is too late.

I don't know about the USA, but here in Canada, you can't trust "PRODUCT OF CANADA" as a label. I was disgusted to learn that as long as 50% of the total cost of the product was expended in Canada, then it is considered to have been made here. Those "costs" include transport, marketing, overhead, distribution etc. In other words, take that $1 item from anywhere else, add some shipping and advertising costs and all of a sudden it's "Canadian". Until our governments stop trying to screw us, we're screwed.

quote:

Until our governments stop trying to screw us, we're screwed.

I'm holding my breath. :-)

R.

LOL .... Doug as you may or may not know my avitar is the sign of the UA .. United Association of Plumbers and Pipefitters of the USA and Canada. Yes its a Union Labor Organization ... you may say UHHHHH lazy, over paid ..bla bla bla ... My family have been Plumbers or Pipefitters for four Generations. I have seen the Politicians sell us out time and time again in one the the greatest cities on earth ..New York .. what do you think the Trade Center was ? Bush knew we were going to get attacked .. I was working across the street in 91 when they tried the first time .. if thats not a sell out I dont know what is ?

Funny our Company name bears the name " Joseph " The Plumber ... I was contacted by channel 7 news and quoted as saying " No matter who wins, if they dont fix what the white collar worker created ... the are going to have a half million Joe The Plumbers banging on Washingtons door for a job".

Its very simple .. the blue collar labor has to take back Washington .. I made my adjustment about 6 years ago ..I cut my company from 80 men to 25 .. I dont take jobs where the margins are marginally profitable .. I dont let young hot shot number crunchers talk me out of profits for extra work ... otherwise I walk away. I dont take work to keep the machine oiled .. this is the way white collar workers bring down Labor.

I own my company and I am labor.

The key is we need to run our businesses more efficient, with focus on time and waste. As we did with drugs and drinking and driving we need to teach our Children values and ethics of work and eventually it will filter up ... the problem is OUR COLLEGES are teaching our young against Unions ... which is out greatest representation of Organized Labor.

Ron

Ron, I have lots of repect for individual workers, but it blows me away when a union worker says he works for such and such a union and the company is just out to get them. Union leaders are another form of politicians. I used to work for one of the Big3 (I'll let you guess which one, 3 guesses and the first 2 don't count) I have seen the company close a parts distribution center and no one saw it comming, I can tell you the white collar supervisors noticed the newly negociated agreement did not have the '2 year notice before we close down a plant'. They gave everyone the oportunity to move to a new location (where rent is double) and they gave those close to retirement 2 years salary to pull ahead retirement. If you go back to the 20's unions were necesary, Sweat shops and people like ol' Henry and his $5 a day abused workers. I think we still need to thank union leader for improving our salaries and work conditions. I dont know about the USA but in Canada I think the abuses are all now covered by provincial or federal laws. Unfortunately now they have stated new tactics, less than 30 hours per week or contract jobs so one is never a full fledge employee. Union or no union companies have big lawyers and at the end of the day enjoy your job because all you are doing is trading time for money.Sorry to be crude but thats the truth.

Denis ... agreed but a couple things to keep in mind about Unions

1. Unions are easy targets for critisizm.
2. The wages of all labor and productivity is guaged by the unions.
3. like everything else the majority are good hard working people, the few give the rest a bad name .. just like non union workers are not all bad or do bad work ..another myth.
4. In todays economy the Bosses are in the driver seat because there is a lack of work and a lot of men sitting on the bench .. this gives a boss the upper hand .. just like when its busy the worker has the upper hand. Its a cycle of human nature.
5. A lot of the Union rules really make sence. Example: 1 Foreman for 15 men ? its lot of work for 1 foreman to supervise 15 men. Coffe time, lunch time etc are all dept of labor laws.

I agree some union rules dotn make sence ... In our negociation this year we handed back and out dated contract and told the Union to rewrite it ... it has materials and laws that dont apply to todays work place. Example they still had piping for the old soap dispnsors ??? We need some rules for PEX, Tracpipe and PVC ? Another example: Plumbers dont bring hand tools ...why not the lose and steel 50k per year in my company alone.
Ron

quote:

Coffe time, lunch time etc are all dept of labor laws

I tried to locate those laws last year. I looked in the Federal rules websites and could not find them for Michigan either. I know the federal laws used to state a lunch or break no later then 5 hours into the shift.
In Michigan all I could find related to this was for minors. Forgot the limits, but NOTHING for adults.
Jeff

The Feds are leaving this to the states to set the guidelines...and that my friends is why we have Unions ... Lunch time is required in NYS Dept of Labor for every 6 hours worked and Break Time you are correct is not required ... but try tomorrow working the day with nothing but lunch ... there is a a Human Factor here and if you want to encourage production and ethics and morals ..then buy the employees coffee, juice, soda and set up a break room so they dont have to leave the factory or jobsite ..then they will produce for you and you will not need Unions if all bosses had a heart your talking about your father, mother, sister, brother , wife and children .. you want to see your child go tomorrow with out his or her bottle all day with nothing?

Ron

Ron

Lightening the mood
Actually, this has been a great discussion thread, I've worked in union, non-union and even government jobs over the years, I've seen people who put their back into everything they do, and I've also seen slackers in all of these places - it all seems to come down to the nature of the individual. If union folks get a bad rap, it is probably because they are so visible in society, plumbers, electricians, teachers, road crews, fire fighters, bus drivers, police officers (that last one might touch a nerve with Pantera drivers) and if you look hard enough, you're sure to spot someone leaning on a shovel at the side of the road, or maybe spending too much time at the donut shop - but everyone benefits from the skills and dedication of the other 99 out of 100.

I guess I am totally out of touch, have no knowledge of how unions work today or am just plain stupid.

For the past 30 years I have been running businesses where my employees are treated like my family and friends. And more often than not they are or end up as my friends – in some cases, my family too.

They come and go as they please. They are free to take care of their kids, parents and themselves. They never punched a clock nor did I ever see one. I have managed to build quality teams of motivated workers who care about their product. Period. So I leave it to them to find the best way to get done what I need done.

The rest of it is a total free for all – what time they arrive or leave, or even if they come in at all. They pick a schedule that works for them and it lasts until it really interferes with someone else's.

I give them what they need to work in the office, or from home or from anywhere else on the road. Our offices are nice and pleasant, with food and drink and comforts for all to enjoy. I often find kids and dogs all over the place whenever I drop in.

No one kisses my a$$ or bows down to me. Quite the opposite. It’s a bit frustrating at times but it is the way of the world. It’s called democracy.

I only care about what they produce. If it’s done well and on time then the rest of the deal is unimportant. They do what they want for lunch, or breaks and have time off for everything they need, plus lots of holidays that they are free to schedule. And although I think they have it made, I am sure they think they are worth more than I pay them. But hey, I feel the same way.

Unions certainly have a place wherever unscrupulous employers treat folks badly. Other than that, I wonder.

Unless a worker is illegal, infirm, unable to speak the language or desperate for employment, most legal citizens of the developed world have the upper hand. Most modern governments provide enough assistance to keep them off the streets even if they never work a day in their life. Which is another story.

Our problem is that managers of big governments and big corporations waste huge amounts of other peoples’ money, have no long term goals or vision beyond a few years and no regard for their employees, the environment or the impact of their products and policies.

Our system is the best in the world. But badly flawed. I would have thought with all the history, knowledge, talent and intelligence there would be several viable alternatives. I know they exist, but every time a new idea surfaces it is attacked and quickly destroyed. Why is that?

Our system is the best in the world. But badly flawed. I would have thought with all the history, knowledge, talent and intelligence there would be several viable alternatives. I know they exist, but every time a new idea surfaces it is attacked and quickly destroyed. Why is that?[/QUOTE]

Its because the system employs people. People who have flaws such as egos, greed, etc.

As a mere tot, I was told many things but two as of this moment come to mind. 1)kindness is considered by many as as sign of weakness 2)if men were angels governments wouldn't be needed.

Give me some more time. I can remember a whole donkey cart full.