big block vs small block

Steve,

Cleveland:
9.2" deck height
2.75" main journals
timing chain shroud part of block

Windsor:
9.5" deck height
3" main journals
timing chain has a separate shroud/cover

A Cleveland came in both 2 and 4 bolt mains, a Windsor came in only 2 bolt mains.

Of course, the heads are an obvious difference, the Clevelands being much larger. There are other subtle differences, but those listed above are the main ones.

The best description for a Cleveland would be a 'mid-block'.

Here's a looksee at the blocks (Cleveland left, Windsor right):

Michael

Steve, no such thing as an ignorant question! The only bad question is the one that goes unasked!

The whole "small block" concept is kind of muddled when you are talking about Ford engines. Its best to think of Fords as engine "series", and in this case I'm going to focus on 2 engine series, the Windsor engines and the 335 series engines.

In the minds of most people there are 3 Ford small block push rod V8s: the little 260 / 289 / 302 / 5.0 with an 8.2" block deck height; the 351C with a 9.2" block deck height; and the 351W with a 9.5" block deck height. The 302 & 351W were both cast in Windsor Canada. I think these engines are small blocks in the minds of most people because they compete in the same displacement class as the small block Chevy.

All 3 of these V8 motors share the same bore spacing, motor mount and bell housing bolt patterns, and interchange in many instances fairly easily. Cleveland heads will bolt onto a 302W or 351W block with a simple coolant passage modification, and a new set of pistons (valve reliefs are different). I'm over simplifying that a bit, of course. Not much else interchanges between the Cleveland and the 2 Windsor motors.

The dimensions of the 351C block are very nearly identical to the small block Chevy, while the 351C cylinder head has several similarities to the big block chevy's head. The 302 & 351W cylinder heads are almost carbon copies of the small block chevy cylinder heads, except for the spacing of the ports.

There is one other motor I must include in this discussion, the 351M / 400. Gary (comp2) is building a stroker for his Pantera based on this block. It has a foot in two Ford engine camps, but Ford considers the 351C / 351M / 400 as the same series of motors, they are referred to as 335 series. So from that perspective, the 351M / 400 is also a "small block". The 351M / 400 shares the same bore spacing as the previously mentioned small block Fords, the same cooling system as the Cleveland, it uses Cleveland cylinder heads, Cleveland camshaft, Cleveland oil pump & pan, Cleveland timing cover, and a Cleveland distributor. The main bearing journals are the same size as the 351W. BUT, the motor mount bolt pattern and bell housing bolt pattern are the same as the 385 series Ford big block (429 / 460). There is one exception to this, in 1973 Ford produced a batch of 400 motors with the small block bell housing bolt pattern, folks refer to this unique block as the fmx block because it was cast to allow it to use the fmx automatic transmission with a small block bellhousing, the block's casting number was D3AE-B.

The 351M / 400 has a 10.3" high block deck height (1.1" higher than the Cleveland). This is the same height as the 385 series big block, and about 1/8" higher than Fords other big block, the FE series (390, 427, 428).

You've noticed there are 3 Fords with the same diplacement, the 351C, the 351M and the 351W. The C stands for Cleveland Ohio, and the W for Windsor, Ontario, Canada. These are the cities where the respective engine plants are located.

The M engine was cast in the Michigan Casting Center. Some say the M stands for Midland. There is a city in Michigan called Midland, but I do not know if that's where the Michigan casting center is located. The M designates one or the other.

OK, its all clear now, right? LOL

Your friend on the PIBB, George

Whew! What was that middle part again?

OK Now, 2nd question. Why do we not use big blocks to start with? Is this possible? Say a 460 for instance.

And 3rd, what is the most displacement possible starting with the Windsor block? I noticed the "Purple Passion" Pantera that Gary Hall built is said to have a 460. I am assuming that this is a small block.

Steve

quote:

OK Now, 2nd question. Why do we not use big blocks to start with? Is this possible? Say a 460 for instance.

Steve, I think that is a question many people have different views on. I will give you mine. First the bigest problem with going with a bigger engine is weight. This is one of the key reasons people like to rev up smaller engines.

The problem comes in with durability. The harder you run an engine, the shorter the life span. My brother has a 600+ hp Superformance Cobra. Has over 30k on the engine. He and his wife run it on tracks and drag strips everywhere. They run it hard; very hard. They swapped motors tore it down and it was still in very good shape. Right now he is playing with another 460 stroker.

Most of the guys at the tack run small blocks. Many of them don't make it to the end of the day when they run that hard. He says if a guy runs a small block hard it's never there with the same engine the next year. The same problem with the Lotus's.

The main draw back is weight but he has aluminum heads. He weighed his engine and the total extra weight was about 100lbs.

Big blocks and stroking allow you to make peak hp at lower rpms. This gives you power and tq at low rpms and logevity in the engine.

At least that's my take.

Gary

Precision ProFormance in Brea, CA does the big block conversion on Pantera's. I think they use a Ford SVO crate motor with lots of horsepower and cheap price the motor alone is only about $8,000.00 in the SVO catalog
They have special motor & trans mounts that are required for the swap and all the other usually things headers, hoses, ect.
Thing I personally don't like is the conversion looks like it moves the motor & transaxle back about 1.5" this changes the angle on the half shafts and moves more weight to back of car I would think.
The half shafts are made to change angles so this may not really be an issue.

I understand that the 429/460 is a massive, heavy block, but what about the FE? My understanding is that it was not that much larger physically than the small block yet displaced 427 cubic inches and came with over 500 horsepower in some configurations. It was said this motor redlined at 7500 RPM and could do it all day long. Why don't we see more 427 FEs in Panteras?? A lot of cobras have them.

I am going with the 400 for a couple reason. The cylinder spacing is the same as the cleveland and the length of the engine is the same which means it does not require the moving of the transaxle. The deck height is 1" more. but front to back it is basically the same as the cleveland. They could not use them in Mustangs because of the shock towers. If they could have I am sure this engine would have gotten a lot more attention. It allows me to increase cubic inches without adding a lot of weight. With aluminum heads it should be very similar weight and maybe even slightly less then the cleveland.:

Doesn't mean there are not stubling blocks but that's why God gave us brains. Right?



Gary

DeTom, the Fe blocks are also big and heavy. True, the 427 was a horsepower monster in its day, but time moves on! A 427 FE at 7500 rpm is living large...and isn't going to last "forever."

A "lot of Cobra's" have 427 emblems on the fenders - most of them are not so equipped.

This is an age old argument that won't be settled here, or anywhere else anytime soon. Big blocks equal lots of torque and a thunderous exahust. Small blocks equal less torque, higher rpm (generally) and a pretty nice sounding exhaust as well. You choose your poison on this one...be prepared to argue every time the subject comes up. Bottom line - small blocks weigh less, big blocks make more torque. How about confusing the issue? A small block, with aluminum components, bored and stroked into big block territory? Want more? How about a big block expanded the same way?

This one will never go away!

Terry

Having been on the supply side of this equation, the bottom line is budget & goals. Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go? You may want as much as possible, but this most often is not realistic, unless your last name is Rockefeller.

The engine in Gary Hall's purple passion uses a Fontana block (mega $$$). Due to its 460 cubic inch displacement I would assume it is a tall block (351W deck height). I am not aware of any small block Ford that has been bored & stroked beyond 460 cubic inches. But isn't that enough?

If you want to swap motors, the 351W will swap the easiest, next would be the 400 like Gary's project (although the exhaust will be custom $$). next would come the 385 series because the parts to do the swap are off the shelf. The FE motor will be a custom job.

The 385 series (429, 460, 514) & FE (390, 427, 428) are longer than the 351C, 351W, 400, so you have to shove the tranny backwards & angle the half shafts more than they already are, this is not good, it will build heat in the U-joints and wheel bearings and shorten their lives.

your friend on the PIBB, George

Assuming that I have the Windsor iron block, which should have the 9.5 deck height, I then should be able to achieve the 460 cubic inches that Gary hall runs. Correct?

If this is the case, are there other complications that I don't understand with stroking the engine. Such as, is a 427 stroker more reliable than a 460 stroker?

Due to the longer stroke, doesn't this have problems with the rod angle?

If there wasn't issues it would seem that anyone building a stroker would choose a 460. But this is not the case.

Lastly, does a stroked 460 small block develop similar torque and horsepower of a big block 460?

Steve

quote:

(although the exhaust will be custom $$).

Noy sure yet George, it is a Cleveland head. Looks like I have room to bring it up with no problem in the bay. We'll see. Lower pipes will need to be redone but their due anyway.

G

Steve,

To hit 460 cubes with a 351W block, you'll need a block that can be overbored to 4.185" inches. This is not your Ford production block, but a FRPP (Ford Racing) block, a Dart block, etc. The crank is the same crank being used in the more common 427 strokers, such as the one sold by PI Motorsports.

The common production 351W block is a thin wall casting just like the Cleveland, and production of 500 bhp is taxing that block pretty well. A FRPP or Dart block can sustain several more hundred horsepower without complaint, so a 460 cube stroker based on one of those blocks will not have relaibility issues associated with the engine block, or the reciprocating assembly.

The reason 460 strokers aren't more common is that most are based on the less expensive Ford production block. The rod angle is not a problem at street rpm levels, assuming a reasonable red line of 6500 rpm. Now if you were NASCAR racing with one, at 9000 rpm, you should expect trouble. The main problem with the extreme strokers is that the wrist pin passes through the oil ring groove which will create an oil burning issue.

And your last question, can the small block based stroker produce as much bhp as a big block engine of equal displacement, the answer is yes or no . It will depend upon how much bhp the cylinder heads you use will support. My advice would be to put those C302 heads to use. There are off the shelf intake manifolds available to match up with those heads on the 351W block. Gary Hall is using C302 heads on the motor in purple passion. If you didn't already have the C302 heads, my advice would be the Brodix BF300 heads, those heads will support "mondo" amounts of bhp.

Your friendly neighborhood PIBB jockey, George

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
Steve,

The rod angle is not a problem at street rpm levels, assuming a reasonable red line of 6500 rpm. Now if you were NASCAR racing with one, at 9000 rpm, you should expect trouble. The main problem with the extreme strokers is that the wrist pin passes through the oil ring groove which will create an oil burning issue.
George

That was one of the advantages of the 400. The rod angle was still very mild and a 4.5" stroke would still be easy and not extreme if some one forged a crank for it; Somethign Tim is looking into.

I talked with one of the guys that does the 460's. Not only is the engine longer, and the block a much heavier block to start with, but they were using a bell housing adapter plate. Not a correct bellhousing. That allone added 1.5" PLUSS the added length of the engine.

Comon parts is always a plus
Going with stuff other people have already done a pluss (for which I am kind of going againtst the grain)

Gary


G

Here is the write up on the motor specs for the Halls Purple Passion car from old PI article, Car is running a aftermarket aluminum block.

"The engine is the thing that stops you even if the Barney purple body doesn't. It is a 460 cubic inch, polished aluminum Fontana block carrying a forged steel crank and has been stroked to 4.250 inch. Rods are forged steel, 6.125" in length, shot peened, carrying ARP rod bolts. Heads are Ford SVO brand, aluminum and polished with titanium valves and 16 rocker shafts. The camshaft is a roller cam. Flywheel is aluminum with Dual friction clutch disc."

Gary, I'm enthused about your project. A 4.5" stroke would yield 460 cubes. Cleveland heads, even the cast iron heads, can support that displacement. If headers aren't an issue (still hard for me to believe they aren't) then the motor mounts & bellhousing are the only pieces that makes this project anything other than a direct bolt-in. Many of the major part such as heads, distributors, water pumps, cams, oil pumps & oilpans are interchangeable between the 351C & 400.

An issue with some owners is the ability to keep everything under the engine screen. An intake that keeps everything low enough to do this would aid in making this swap more universally attractive. It would be tight, but achievable. The carburetor in the "L" Panteras sits on an EGR plate that is about an inch thick, about the difference in height between the 2 blocks. So I'll bet the oem 351C intake manifold with the typical intake adapter plates for the 400 would allow the carb & air filter (sans EGR plate) to sit tightly below the "L" engine screen.

Mark, since Gary Hall used the 4.25" crank in his Barney-mobile, that means the bore is 4.155", which is a 4.125" cylinder bored 0.030" over. (4.185" is a 4.125 cylinder bored 0.060" over)

Your friend on the PIBB, George