Carbon fibre Rear Deck

B.G.:

Having considered going to a carbon fiber deck lid myself, I'm also interested in the questions you have posed. So far, I have held off buying one because of two concerns. First, I am concerned that none of the non-metal deck lids seem robust enough to retain the use of gas struts without the risk of warping. Second, I have heard that the fit and finish of some of the carbon fiber deck lids is extremely poor.

You may want to check out Goran Malmberg's experiences and advice on this topic [ http://hem.passagen.se/hemipanter/ ]. He went to a carbon fiber deck lid because, by his calculations, the weight savings at the high point of the car makes a dramatic difference in the car's centre of gravity, thereby substantially improving handling. He compared it to dropping the engine and transaxle two inches. Mind you, Goran's calculations were based on the installation of a true carbon fiber deck lid which brings the weight down from about 60 lbs to as little as 14 lbs (Goram has his down to 13.2 lbs). Ron Wade sells a foam core, pure carbon fiber deck lid that weighs 18-19 lbs for about $2,000 (but he still does not recommend using gas struts with it).

Be warned that most "carbon fiber" deck lids offered by the vendors are, in fact, merely carbon fiber over top of fiberglass. As far as I can tell, this is purely for show, and if you intend to paint over it, then save yourself a lot of money and just go for a regular fiberglass deck lid. Ron Wade sells a fiberglass deck lid that weighs 31 lbs. PI Motorsports were selling their fiberglass deck lid for only $775 when I enquired about it two years ago.

When I last talked to him about this, which was also a couple of years ago, Larry Stock at Pantera Parts Connection had a pure carbon fiber deck lid for $3,500. At about the same time, PI Motorsports were selling a carbon fiber over fiberglass deck lid for $1,296 which they claimed weighed only 15-20 lbs.

I will be looking to reading more posts on this thread from people who have more recent information, and from those who have purchased and installed the various aftermarket deck lids that are available.

- Peter

Thanks Peter,

You provided some good information. I did not realize that the carbon fibre rear decks offered by some vendors is fibreglass with carbon fibre outer layers.

Being involved in the aircraft business, my exposure to carbon fibre construction is in that field. Normally, CF is vacuum bagged and cured so as to offer the least weight, strength and stability for the environment used.

After doing some research, some time ago I purchased a kevlar canoe that was constucted in very much the same way.

Anyway, looks like there is other interest in hearing input and experience with Carbon Fibre and Fibreglass rear decks.

B.G.

I can tell you about hand laid fiberglass hoods. They are not good.

Basically the only way you can keep them from bending almost in half is to eliminate any sort of pressure on them like the hinge springs or in the case of the Pantera, the shock supports.

The hoods typically on the early Shelbys will warp one to two inches, up, in the middle. The later ones with the pressure stamped fiberglass are better but still warp.

I don't have any experience with carbon fibre.

Hi Bohdan,

Why do you want to change your deck?

According to the Colin Chapman school of motoring,
Lose 10 lbs, gain 1 HP.

Well David,

I haven't decided to change my rear deck yet. I just want to make an informed decision.

I am looking at the CF rear deck for 2 reasons:

1) - The weight savings. I am reviewing items on my car to lighted it up eg. changing the rear bumper to GlassFibre (GF). Removing the rear bumper shocks and installing GT5 bumper mounts (like yours - remember when we did that work?). You already know about the aluminum engine. I am changing my heavy stock suspension Shocks & springs as well...etc. ...

2) I have noted on many earlier posts that if there is a thought of modifying the metal decks (front and rear), before doing any work on these expensive items - consideration should be given to using a CF or GF item.

I have some trepedation about CF and GF components in these applications if the items are not constructed properly. For example, without a properly selected matrix, temperature effects can be a problem. The matrix may "flow" over time and distort the item. (It can have worse effects in the a/c business). This would be cosmetically very noticable and structurally important on a large flat area like the deck.

I am interested to hear what the community's experience is for the DeTomaso Pantera.

As I said before, for structural strength and part stability, normally GF and CF components are vacuum bagged and autoclaved. Some automobile examples include Lamborghini cars, McLaren F1, Ferrari CF components, DeTomaso Guara etc., without even mentioning F1 and Group racers.

HTH

B.G.

quote:

Originally posted by Carbo:
According to the Colin Chapman school of motoring,
Lose 10 lbs, gain 1 HP.

Well, that's it. I guess I just have to go on a diet.

Lose 10 lbs gain about one tenth second per lap.

Sounds like a lot of work and money to say nothing of the risk, based on what I read here, just to make it to Tim Hortons 2 seconds faster.

But then again, waiting in the parking lot for those two seconds until the rest of us arrive sure would be fun.

quote:

As I said before, for structural strength and part stability, normally GF and CF components are vacuum bagged and autoclaved. Some automobile examples include Lamborghini cars, McLaren F1, Ferrari CF components, DeTomaso Guara etc., without even mentioning F1 and Group racers.

Johnny Woods had some good information to share with me on this subject when I spoke with him at Vegas. He has done quite a bit of research in this area and I'm hoping we can persuade him to share his findings and observations here...hint..hint.

Julian

quote:

Well, that's it. I guess I just have to go on a diet.

What about finding a gf/mistress in a size zero for the passenger seat? That's got to be worth a few HP

/thankfully my wife does not read this forum

What could you save in weight by doing what Bohdan is suggesting? I'm guessing something like this:

Cast iron block is about 200 lbs? Aluminum density is 1/3 steel, so saving about 130 lbs.

Deck lid, about 40 lbs saving based on Peter's post above.

Front hood, we can assume 1/3 of the rear or about 15 lbs saving

Bumper shocks, front & rear, I've heard 150 lbs in these things including the mounts which sounds high. Lets assume 50 lbs.

A/C system, fan & hoses. Must be 30 lbs. in there, at least.

Almost forgot the lightweight suspension parts. 10 lbs saved per corner? So 40 lbs.

Anything else? So far we've taken 305 lbs off Bohdan's car, or about 10% assuming a 3000 lb car. That's a decent weight saving and enough to feel a difference driving it.

Now if we get crazy... you don't really need a stereo in there do you??!!!

Jack Deryke has spent years trying to figure out various ways to make his wife's Pantera lighter. Goran Malmberg has also seriously lightened his car, and has a list of what he has done to achieve this posted on his web site. Some people (and I include myself in this group) focus on the unsprung weight, because improving it helps suspension compliance, resulting in better handling. Pat Mical has gone so far as to cast magnesium uprights for one of his Panteras. If I recall correctly, he has lost something like 20 lbs per wheel with this modification alone.

Past a certain point, the costs are so high and the gains so marginal that I think a guy is much better off trading the wife in on an anorexic fashion model. But that's just my opinion.

I finally found that old post from Goran Malmberg where he talks about the benefit of going to a lighter deck lid. Here is the whole post from the DeTomaso E-mail Forum, dated August 19, 2004:

"Well, saving weight is no easy thing.
It is easely believed that by swithching to aluminium heads together with a few other things,
the car should go down a lot in weight. My former Pantera was 2343 pounds with a 302 boss
Nascar engine with four Webers. If we calculate the original car to be 3100 pounds, this is a
reduction by 757 pounds. Lets say we have to take 5 pounds away at 151 places!

Ok, there are som bigger losses like the rear hood which is 66 pound. A fibre glass hood is 25,
and a carbone fibre is 14 pounds.So we may cut 52 pound here, but whats more important, the
rear lid is VERY high located weight. Making the same effect as lovering the engine and trans
over 2 inches, as fare as corner weight transfer is concerned.

Another big reduction is wheels. My 4 wheels and tires is 68 pounds. 100 pound is not unusual
for a regular wheel-tire set up. And here we have another side effect as we talk rotational mass.
Calculate on a 1/2 sec difference in 1/4 mile time...."

Sweet Old Bill from about the same time wrote:

"Database says:


Vehicle Weights:


Pantera #1 total wgt= 3231 front 1379/ 3231= 42.6% rear
1852/3231= 57.3%
Pantera #2 total wgt= 3301 front 1419/ 3301= 43% rear
1882/3301= 57% weighed 6 Panteras at a tech session: all were '72-'74 and weighed
around 3250- 3300 3080 with 1/2 tank of gas and 10 quarts of oil. '71
weighed at 3045lbs with a 1/2 tank of gas and no driver Stock 74L weighted 3219
lbs with a full tank of gas



Weight Reduction:

SVO aluminum heads drop 60 lbs; SVO air-gap intake drops 18 lbs; aluminum
waterpump drops 12 lbs; gear-drive starter drops 5.5; Total = 95.5 lbs.
March 2003 Issue has detailed weight reductions totaling 315+47=362 lbs with
another 37 pounds of future savings Jack Derive Radiator top shield
steel (3lbs) to .020 Aluminum (1/2 lb) Rad fans, mounts, and shroud (10 lbs) to
flat fans and .060 aluminum shroud (3 lbs) Hood steel (28 lbs) to
Fiberglass hood (25 lbs) Front brake rotors (36 lbs per pair) to 911 Porsche rotors
with alloy hats (18 lbs per pair) Rear brake rotors (32 lbs per pair) to 911
Porsche rotors with ally hats (16 lbs per pair) AC Compressor (York piston)
(38 lbs) to Sankyo rotary (16 lbs) AC Compressor, Alternator steel plate and
bracket (18 lbs) to custom bracket and aluminum plate (2.5 lbs) AC
Condenser, Fan and Shroud (28 lbs) to Datsun aluminum (18 lbs) Cylinder Heads 351-4V
Cast Iron (118 lbs per pair) to SVO A3 Aluminum (58 lbs per pair) Intake
Manifold Cast Iron (46 lbs) to SVO Open Plenum Aluminum (15 lbs) Water Pump,
Cast Iron ( 16 lbs) to Weiand Aluminum Water Pump (8 lbs) Starter, Stock
Ford (16 lbs) to McLeod gear drive (10.5 lbs) Radiator, stock brass (64 lbs) to
Radiator, custom brass (45 lbs) Bumper Rams, L style (4 each) (26 lbs) to
Welded Aluminum tube (5 lbs) Windows, Front Quarter, safety glass (2 each)
(10 lbs) to Plexiglas copies (6 lbs) Windows, Rear Quarter, safety glass (2
each) (10 lbs) to Deleted License Plate Holders, Front & Rear, Steel (3
lbs) to Deleted Steering Rack Mounts, Steel (6 lbs) to Custom Aluminum (2 lbs)
Sway Bar Mounts, Steel Strap/Rubber (8 each) (4 lbs) to
Polyurethane/Sphereball (3 lbs) Tire, Spare, Steel 14x6 Collapsible (19 lbs) to Aluminum Drag
Race 14x6 (10 lbs) Splash Shields, Steel, Front & Rear (10 lbs) to .020
Aluminum (4 lbs) Clutch Throwout Mechanism, Complete (6 lbs) to Tilton
Concentric (1 lbs) Battery, Stock (42 lbs) to Delco Freedom (29 lbs) Brake
Proportioning & Shuttle Valve (2 lbs) to deleted Spring Spacers (4 each) (4 lbs) to
deleted Hubs, Front, Cast Iron (2 each) (22 lbs) to alloy hubs (8 lbs)
Rotor/Hat Adapters, Front (2 each) ( 2.5 lbs) to deleted Engine Pulleys, Iron (2
each) (7 lbs) to 6061 Aluminum (2 lbs) Bumper, Front, Stock, L Style (26 lbs)
to Fiberglass (6 lbs) AC Hoses, Stock (16 lbs) to Aluminum Hard Lines (6
lbs) Alternator/AC Compressor mounting bracket: OEM steel version weighs 18
lbs; aluminum version weighs 2.5 lbs Rear Hood: OEM steel = 66 lbs;
Fiberglass ~ 22 lbs stock steel decklid before I sold it 65 lbs carbon fiber cloth
Wilkinson decklid and weighed it was 25lbs A true Carbon Fiber Deck Lid
weighed 13.2 lbs."

Jack Deryke wrote, again as part of the same e-mail exchange in 2004, as follows:

"A subject near 'n dear to my heart. I've written numerous articles on this
subject over the last 15 years, in both PI and the POCA newsletters.

How heavy is a typical stock 351C?
The best info is about 550 lbs with a std shift flywheel.

How much weight can be saved by switching to aluminum heads and an aluminum
intake?
SVO stagger-valve NASCAR heads save 58 lbs while the mandatory intake to fit
those heads saves another 31 lbs & an alloy Weiand waterpump saves more 8 lbs.
An Aviaid 10-qt oil pan (also mandatory) ADDS 8 lbs.

Are there other practical options with regard to the engine that can save
even more weight?
Sure- just bring money. An aluminum flywheel can be15 lbs lighter & still be
driveable; a lightened forged crankshaft saves maybe 20 lbs with the same
strength as stock- for $2000. A Fontana aluminum block is some 75 lbs lighter
than the cast iron lump for another $3250. About 10 lbs can come off the ZF but
those parts aren't cheap, either!


Are there any good examples of lightened cars among list members?

Our air-conditioned, stereo-equipped '72-L model currently weighs 2790 lbs
with 1/2 tank of gas (when I started , it was 3235 lbs) , with further
deductions getting more expensive & harder to find. We drive it 1000 miles round trip
to 'Vegas each year & test everything. There's an expensively reworked '87
GT5-S street car in WA that reportedly weighs 2650 lbs (1/2 tank of gas), ready
to drive."

Here's the Wikipedia data on this topic:

OEM Weight:
• Stock 74L weighted 3219 lbs with a full tank of gas.
• 71 weighed at 3045lbs with a 1/2 tank of gas and no driver.
• Weighed 6 Panteras at a tech session: all were '72-'74 and weighed around 3250- 3300
• Pantera #1: Total wgt= 3231 front 1379/ 3231= 42.6% rear 1852/3231= 57.3%
• Pantera #2: Total wgt= 3301 front 1419/ 3301= 43% rear 1882/3301= 57%
AC Condenser, Fan and Shroud: (28 lbs) to Datsun aluminum (18 lbs)
AC Compressor (York piston): (38 lbs) to Sankyo rotary (16 lbs)
AC Compressor, Alternator steel plate and bracket: (18 lbs) to custom bracket and aluminum plate (2.5 lbs)
AC Hoses: Stock (16 lbs) to Aluminum Hard Lines (6 lbs)
Alternator/AC Compressor mounting bracket: OEM steel version weighs 18 lbs; aluminum version weighs 2.5lbs.
Battery: Stock (42 lbs) to Delco Freedom (29 lbs)
Brake Proportioning & Shuttle Valve: (2 lbs) to deleted
Bumper Front (L): Stock L Style (26 lbs) to Fiberglass (6 lbs) or to Welded Aluminum tube (5 lbs)
Clutch Throwout Mechanism: Complete (6 lbs) to Tilton Concentric (1 lbs)
Cylinder Heads: 351-4V Cast Iron (118 lbs per pair) to SVO A3 Aluminum (58 lbs per pair)
Decklid: OEM Weight: ~65lbs. Fiberglass: ~22lbs. True Carbon Fiber: 13.2lbs.
Engine Pulleys: Iron (x2 each) (7 lbs) to 6061 Aluminum (2 lbs)
Hood: steel (28 lbs) to Fiberglass hood (25 lbs)
Hubs (Front): Cast Iron (2 each) (22 lbs) to alloy hubs (8 lbs)
Intake Manifold: Cast Iron (46 lbs) to SVO Open Plenum Aluminum (15 lbs)
License Plate Holders, Front & Rear: Steel (3 lbs) to Deleted
Radiator: stock brass (64 lbs) to Radiator, custom brass (45 lbs)
Radiator fans, mounts, and shroud: (10 lbs) to flat fans and .060 aluminum shroud (3 lbs)
Radiator top shield: steel (3lbs) to .020 Aluminum (1/2 lb)
Rotor/Hat Adapters: Front (2 each) ( 2.5 lbs) to deleted
Rotors (Rear): (32 lbs per pair) to 911 Porsche rotors with ally hats (16 lbs per pair)
Rotors (Front): (36 lbs per pair) to 911 Porsche rotors with alloy hats (18 lbs per pair)
Splash Shields, Steel, Front & Rear: (10 lbs) to .020 Aluminum (4 lbs)
Spring Spacers: (4 each) (4 lbs) to deleted
Starter: Stock Ford (16 lbs) to McLeod gear drive (10.5 lbs)
Steering Rack Mounts: Steel (6 lbs) to Custom Aluminum (2 lbs)
Sway Bar Mounts: Steel Strap/Rubber (8 each) (4 lbs) to Polyurethane/Sphereball (3 lbs)
Tire (Spare): Steel 14x6 Collapsible (19 lbs) to Aluminum Drag Race 14x6 (10 lbs)
Water Pump: Cast Iron ( 16 lbs) to Weiand Aluminum Water Pump (8 lbs)
Windows (Rear Quarter): safety glass (2 each) (10 lbs) to Deleted or to Plexiglas copies (6 lbs)

OK, that's it. I think I've taken my best shot at the longest post on the PIBB ever.

- Peter

Dang, If I can just loose a few pounds and get to my ideal weight, then I could pick up a half second a lap. HMM, have to quit eating pizza.

Although, I will take a good glass deck lid. I want to cut holes in it for the intercoolers and dont want to ruin the original.

The cowboy from hell is going to play the role of Devil's advocate (how appropriate) and stimulate thought. Lets have a plan rather than going into weight reduction blindly.

Why are we lightening the car?

To accelerate & decelerate faster? To make the car handle better?

the improvements that affect all aspects of the cars performance most profoundly:

(1) the lightest wheel/tire package you can afford.

(2) the lightest brake rotor assemblies you can afford.

(3)the lightest hubs, axles & half shafts you can afford. NO choices here? Yell at the vendors.

(4) billet lug nuts

If you don't take these steps, you ARE NOT serious about saving weight for the sake of performance, period. In other words, spend money here first.

further lightening to improve acceleration & deceleration:

(5) lightened clutch/flywheel components
(6) lightened balancer
(7) lightened crankshaft/rods/pistons

It is possible to lighten the motor's reciprocating & rotating parts too much. If the car gets to the point that it spins its wheels too easily, traction is too hard to control, it will be necessary to add weight back to the rotating parts!

a given:

(8) lightening any aspect of the vehicle will assist improvements in acceleration/deceleration, however lightening the rotating parts has a bigger affect for a given amount of weight removed. The effect of lighter wheels & tires has a particularly profound effect.

To improve handling:

(9) lower the car. how low? to the point that a low profile racer jack barely fits under the lift points. What a waste to spend a large sum of money for a carbon fiber rear deck when you have the whole chassis sitting two to three inches higher than it needs to.

Do you know what the biggest hindrance in the Pantera's handling is? The height of the motor in the chassis! Second biggest hindrance? Flexing of the rear sub frame assembly. Flip the ZF over and lower the motor accordingly to align the crankshaft with the input shaft, and the Pantera would have handling the equal of any supercar today, in 2007. Stiffening the chassis is easy, the ultimate kit for doing so has been available from Hall Pantera for many years.

Reduction in unsprung weight allows the tires to follow irregularities in the road better, i.e. maintain better contact with the asphalt. This improves handling as well as acceleration/deceleration becuase without contact with the asphalt the tires cannot transmit acceleration, braking or cornering forces to the pavement. Besides steps 1,2 & 3 above, other steps to reduce the unsprung weight:

(10) the lightest brake calipers you can afford (why do you think Wilwood calls their calipers "superlights"?)

(11) the oem rear uprights, i.e. carriers, are heavy pigs. Hall sells an aluminum version.

(12) lighter shocks & springs. The stock, large diameter springs are heavy. The smaller diameter Hyperco springs are lighter

(13) control arms made from titanium or chrome moly tubing. You say they aren't available? But bling bling billet aluminum control arms are? Yell at the vendors.

the second given:

(14) lightening any aspect of the car will reap improvements in handling, however reduction in unsprung weight has a more pronounced affect per pound removed than general reductions in chassis weight.

(15) probably the biggest place to save general chassis weight is the engine, using alloy castings for block, heads and intake will save about 200 pounds.

(16) possibly the second biggest area to lose weight is hanging over the drivers belt. No more pizza and beer for you OR I Dave!

(17) Hall has aluminum door skins & deck lid skins available.

(18) aftermarket seats vary drastically in weight

(19) how heavy is your battery? do you even know? have you ever compared the weights of batteries?

(20) elimination of un-needed body parts, i.e. the L bumpers.

(21) replacement of steel parts with alloy parts, such as the fuel tank, cooling system components, etc. Toss them stainless steel coolant pipes brother! I see in Peter's list above the claim that the alloy front hubs will save 14 pounds per pair. I've been told by somebody who actually purchased a set that the weight savings is considerably less, and not worth the expense in purchasing the hubs.

(22) get out the hole saw & chassis punches

cowboy from hell

This is an interesting thread

*Looks at wallet*

Hmmm... I don't think I'll be doing too much of this soon. Maybe I'll just treat myself fo a set of those fancy billet lug nuts this year

I guess I sparked quite an interesting discussion about weight savings !!!

From some earlier posts, George knows that my background and profession is in aerospace engineering with a specialization in structures. So, I look at things that way. Working at Transport Canada has given me access to vehicle design and dynamics.

Secondly, I am not a man of infinite means. If I were, I would probably look at things differently. I want the best performing DeTomaso that I meets my individual requirements. I respect and appreciated that everyone has their own preferences and has modified their cars to fit their requirements. That is why the DeTomaso community is such a good one. (Otherwise I would have purchased the Ferrari or Maserati).

Let me respond with what I believe are some things that I have looked at for weight reduction and performance improvement while avoiding "reducto ad absurdum" on my 74L:

Starting with vehicle dynamics ...
1) For handling, do what you can to reduce the Polar Moment Of Interia (PMOI).
2) Do what you can to improve vehicle dynamics in acceleration, braking and cornering.

What does that mean in simple and affordable terms while also improving the DeTomaso Pantera in those areas that we all agree could use improvement.

i) Wheels/Tires go lightest that can be afforded and that are available - done it for now. When my stock of tires is gone I will look at the wheel/tire market again.
ii) Shocks/springs - the stock system can be upgraded and weight reduced easily. We are going to have to do that sooner or later anyway. For many reasons, I am doing it now.
iii) Brakes - everyone should consider some change here whether its just the SS lines and a new Master to a complete system change. One of the first things I did almost 15 years ago was go with Dennis' complete Willwood Superlite race brake system (calipers, rotors, hats etc.)
iv) Remove the stock bumpers/shocks and replace with GF. That reduces weight AND significantly the (PMOI). Think of the improvement in performane when weight furthest from C.ofG. is reduced in terms of moment-arm ie. 1lb. 5ft away is the same as 5lbs 1ft. away. Same holds for reducing unsprung weight at the corners - so there is a double benefit in doing i), ii), and iii).
v) Radiator has already been replaced so no change here.
vi) My engine needs a rebuild (Remember that discussion George ?) So after looking at all the options I chose to go with Wilkinsons prepared 4.6L DOHC. He had to CARB certify it and so has the HP/ Torque curves and weight savings for his version. I won't go into all the other details but here is a 170lbs weight savings alone.

There are other details that I could mention but I will leave it there for now. I will not compromise on durability. Bling has its place, so long as there is a performance improvement as well. About the rear uprights in Aluminum ? - I have read many posts about this (POCA as well) and it is a contentious subject.

Finally, we come to what the subject of this post was about in the first place. The rear deck:
To improve PMOI; To save weight; and, To allow me to modify the deck's appearance I would like to consider it. It may not be feasible for me at this time. It all depends what other people's experience or knowledge of what is available. What do you guys think?

Anyway always glad to spark some long discussion - It helps us all.


Bohdan

Bohdan,

I suspected you would have taken a thoughtful approach to this subject, I felt the things I wrote may be beneficial to others, as our forums are read by about 1500 people each day.

You make a good point about the distance of an object from the cars polar center. Which is why removing the bumpers is a good improvement. This was a point I forgot to make.

Regarding the Hall alloy rear uprights: truthfully, isn't everything a point of contention on the mailing list? I have heard of a couple of instances where there have been problems. Obviously the design could stand some tweeking. If memory serves me, the upper pivots become loose. I haven't researched this, but if the Hall uprights use a better axle/wheel bearing than the bearing in the oem uprights, then they are worth the expense. The oem rear wheel bearing is undersized for its application. The GTS, GT5 & GT5-S have a carrier designed for a much larger bearing.

take care my friend, George

Does anyone know whether there have been any problems with Pat Mical's magnesium uprights? I think he has installed them on at least one customer's car in addition to his own.

Since magnesium is something like 2/3 the weight of aluminum or less, I would think Pat's uprights would be another alternative to consider.

Julian,
I was going to contribute to this post.. honest. Weight saving is my favourite subject. I get a real kick out of removing weight, but having the car appear unmodified.

I have not weighed my car 74 GTS in a while, so I took it over up to the weigh bridge yesterday. With half a tank of petrol, no driver, no fire extinguisher, no spare wheel, it weighed 2869lbs (1304kg) I was very happy with this. I still have an iron block and heads

I too am interested in carbon fibre deck lid and front hood. I intend to paint them the same as the rest of the car so that nobody would know they where not steel. I would not consider fibreglass or carbon matt over fibreglass because I do not want ripples and ill fit.
I am not even sure if carbon fibre that is laid up like fibreglass (meaning not autoclave baked) will stay ripple free like steel? The only "real" carbon fibre panel I have seen so far that really impressed me came from Walter at Program Motorsports. http://www.program-motorsports.com/carbon.html

I have not seen his deck lid, but his front hood was beautifully finished and weighed 4lbs! When I spoke to Walter on the phone, he said he had access to an autoclave. He also said he had taken his carbon deck lid to a club meet and let people walk on it to demonstrate it's strength!

I asked him if he could supply, but he did not seem sure. Maybe if more people contact him and express interest, he will get some more made.

Here's how I got the car down to 2869lbs: All of these components have been very carefully weighed on quality Salter scales.

Odyssey dry cell battery PC925 26lbs. Original battery 41lbs.
Ally water pump.
Ally intake manifold 16lbs. Original Iron 46lbs.
All A/C equipment removed.
Heater removed and replaced by fabricated ally blower box (no heat). Blower connects to all vents. Saving 11lbs. I do not drive the car in the winter.
Docking Engineering ally radiator: 31.5lbs full of water.(11.5lbs empty) Original copper/brass radiator 59.2lbs full of water.(35lbs empty) saving 27.7lbs
Reduction drive starter 10lbs. Original starter 17lbs.
Flexelight sucker fans with shroud 8lbs. Original fans ?lbs
Ferdanza? Ally flywheel: 13lbs. Original iron flywheel 25.5lbs
The steel engine plate that goes between the bell housing and the block weighs 3.75lbs. I made a skeletal ally one with a separate thinner ally plate to cover the bottom. Weight saving 3.6lbs.
Charcoal canister: Sent back to God.
Engine screen: Removed.
All steel splash shields and wiper motor cover replaced with plastic as discussed in a previous post. Not sure how much I saved, approx 15lbs.
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6450045562...770013334#8770013334
Koni ally bodied shocks with springs 450 front, 550 rear, from Dennis Q. Front 6lbs each. Original Telicar front 14lbs. Rear 8lbs each. Original Telicar rear 18lbs. Total saving 36lbs.
Ally front hubs from Dennis Q with bearings and cap 3.5lbs each. Original iron front hub with bearings and cap 5lbs each. I had to use a deeper hat with the ally hubs, this added 0.5lbs per side, so the total weight saving was 1lbs per front wheel.
12,1/4" Wilwood rotors (front) with ally hat 14.5lbs. Original vented front rotor (GTS) 10.5lbs.(non vented original rotors are 15.5lbs)
6 piston Wilwood calliper (front) with pads 8lbs. Original Girling iron calliper with pads 13lbs.
Fabricated ally alternator bracket.
Facet electric fuel pump. 1.8lbs, Previous Holly red 3lbs. Facet is much quieter too.
Wilkinson Campy replica 17 x 11 rear wheel 26lbs, Original campy 10 x 15 rear wheel 17lbs.
Wilkinson Campy replica 8 x 16 front wheel 21lbs, Original campy 8 x 15 front wheel ?
Pirelli 285,50,15 (bold) 25lbs, Pirelli 335,35,17 (new) 34lbs.
Wilkinson Campy replica 8 x16 with 245,45,16 tyre mounted 48lbs
Original campy 8 x 15 with 225,50,15 tyre mounted 40lbs.

I dont think Hall Pantera do the ally rear hubs any more, shame.
The original window lifter mechanisms with the central runner weigh 8.3lbs per door.
I pulled an electric cable type out of a Nissan Sunny recently. I was very light, and looked like it could be made to fit. My ultimate goal is to make my car lighter than Jack Derykes, even though our cars will probably never be on the same continent.


Johnny