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I'm planning to either beef up the ponies in the 351C or intall a different engine in about a year, my next project.

I'd like more rpm's at redline, so I get more top speed in every gear. So belt driven valves are desirable. Lighter weight would be a nice plus, and affordability with reliability are very desirable too. There's lots of Crown Victoria's that come from the Ford factory already beefed up for law enforcement. That seems like a good reliabilty and affordability answer.

I'd like any info. Is it a straight bolt in for a Pantera, bell housing and engine mounts? Will it fit under the engine screen? Ho difficult will it be to hook up the EFI for a Pantera? Is there a weight or horsepower advantage from the 351-C?

Since I'm not an engine builder or mechanic, and have no experience with law enforcement Crown Vic's, maybe someone on this BB can tell me the redline, displacement, horsepower, and whether they're reliable. I'd like to get a low mileage Crown Vic that was totaled and just install the engine in my Pantera and later do a rebuild with enhanced intake system, etc.

Thank you in advance for your response(s).
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Well being in Law Enforcement,I can't really say much about The Crown Vic motors,most any type of Mustangs,Vetts,Camaros,etc etc etc can out run the Crown Vic.Have driven the Crown Vic for many years,You would probably have to find a way to put a chip or tune the computer to get more output from the motor and possibly go with a different mass air unit.

To me you would be better getting a engine out of a Ford 5.7L out of a Lightning Pickup.The horsepower is more than what they have in a Police Package. I know the Pantera and Crown Vic have a considerable weight difference but I don't think it would be a good platform,I would go with a mustang gt 2005 motor atleast I have driven one of them and can get more mods out of the 3valve motors.

But that is just my opinion.The engines have a rev limiter in the computer that shuts them down about 124-130 mph,and most have like a highway gear in the rear.I personally own a 93 Lincoln Mark VIII 4.6 32v which will out run my own Police Vehicle.
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Thank you for your responses Rapier and Pantera Someday. So much for that terrific idea I came up with. 5.7 L is what 351 c.i.d. equals. Is that truck motor pushrod or overhead cam. If it's pushrod, then I'm just going to rebuild my motor like Coz and 1973 UFO did their motors and get my education from them, being experienced in it already. I'm not so sure it's worth it to search around for an overhead cam engine to replace the 351-C. If all I can get is another 800 or 1,000 rpm at redline, then it's a lot of unknown variables to deal with for 15% or so more speed in each gear, but I like the idea of the extra speed and longer powerband. Not going to do a big block, there needs to be less weight in the rear of the car, not more. If I build my 351-C, I may spend the money for aluminum cylinder heads to knock 150 pounds off the back of the car. Intent on studying this engine subject in much detail prior to doing the project.

Pantera Someday: Thought about you while in Veags at the PCNC Track Event. At The Orleans Hotle, in the parking lot, there was a white GT5 conversion, which was very nicely done, one owner 27 years, many upgrades including aluminum 3V cylinder heads, for $29,500, at leas a baker's dozen dollars below what it coulda' fetched. Called him, it sold immediately, like an hour after he put his 3x5 notecard in the front windshield on Friday evening. If you want, e-mail me and I'll give you the seller's contact info, in the unlikely event the sale fell thru.

Thanks for your responses to my 'hunch' question about the Crown Vic engine. I'm disappointed. That just doesn't make sense, why the law enforcement engine is not up to historical police vehicle standards. Used to be those got the best stuff from the factory. Must be the 'low bid' process the government uses and the way the factory cuts costs to 'win' the contracts for 1,000's of vehicles sold to fleets every year. Thanks again for the informed answers. Pointed me back in the right direction again.
Well I use to be around when Ford had the LTD/Crown Vic with the 460 interceptor now that was a running car on top end chased a number of bad guys down,the only down side was if you hit the brakes to much then you would have bad brake fade (scarey) The State Troopers in my State at 1 time had Javelins with the 401 motors now they screamed then many years later they got the Mustang notch backs,I remember 1 Trooper I knew got after a Porsche running high speed the Trooper pulled along side of him and pointed him over so even at that point they knew the Law had some things that would catch up to them.

But now that why you see so many running from Law Enforcement cause they know they can outrun the cars,but in the end the radio's or the air enforcement gets them in the end.

By the way where are you located ? I know of a engine builder that has had nothing but good info on if that will help you......
To the best of my knowledge, the last great interceptor engine was a fuel injected 351W, very similar (if not identical) to the engine installed in the limited production 1995 Mustang Cobra "R". In the Mustang it was rated at 300 bhp. My memory is unclear, I know they were sold in Canada, not sure if there was any US deliveries.

VFI, I was thinking about your statement that you would like to achieve more mph in each gear. Might I suggest using 3.77 gears in the ZF & building a lower rpm, larger displacement motor that gives you a strong "kick in the butt" off the line. You pull about 60 mph at 6000 rpm in first gear with 3.77 gears in the differential. Just a thought.

I think I remember an article in Pantera International magazine about someone fitting a fuel injected quad cam 4.6 (i think it was a 4.6) into a pantera. This was claimed at, I think, 700bhp.
It was a lady owner, could have been Linda Adler. This was a couple of years back, I know I have the magazine. I could go a find it if you want.
"Might I suggest using 3.77 gears in the ZF & building a lower rpm, larger displacement motor that gives you a strong "kick in the butt" off the line. You pull about 60 mph at 6000 rpm in first gear with 3.77 gears in the differential."

Thanks for this suggestion GP. What gears does the stock "L" Pantera have? I'd really like to have 0 to 60 mph in under 4 seconds. But I have to be able to drive in traffic, and I want a motor that will pull nicely off of idle. I don't want a motor that won't idle under 2,000 rpm's. Maybe a big engine and gears are the solution. Sounds like a 351-W stroker motor is the way to go, huh? I read you post on the 373 and it seems like a 351-W is a better block for stroking and won't add much excess weight. Isn't the 351-W a little lighter motor? Will a 351-W fit under the engine screen? Since the 351-W is shorter, will a supercharger fit on a 351-W and clear the firewall and rear window in a Pantera? Thanks for the responses to everybody.

OEM gearing on our Panteras is 4.22 to 1. 3.77 to 1 gearing widens the ratio between each gear a bit, allows each gear to wind a little further, allows you to reach 60 in first (which should give you that 4 second 0 to 60 you are looking for), gives you a somewhat more relaxed cruise speed and will allow the car to attain a top speed in the 170 mph neighborhood.

All of the Ford small block V8's are thin wall castings, therefore the 302 is lightest, the 351C is in the middle, the 351W is a bit heavier.

The 351W is taller than the Cleveland, but not by a great deal. I have never seen a 351W fit under the engine screen, because everybody runs the "spider" type, high rise intake manifolds (Edelbrock Victors or Ford Motorsport). My guess is that with a conventional, low rise 2 plane intake it would be possible to get the carb & air filter under the late model L engine screen. Jerry at PI Motorsports will have a better idea, since he is involved with the Viper Spanker motor swaps (427 cubic inch 351W).

The PI Viper Spanker may be a motor for you to consider. They rate it at 500 bhp.

From bellhousing flange to the water pump tip, the 351W & Cleveland are again about the same length.

Supercharging?! Isn't a naturally aspirated 500 bhp 427 windsor enough? I'm just kidding around. Wink

There are other Pantera owners with experience supercharging the Pantera. I have none. I have seen B&M superchargers squeezed on top of the 351C. There are 2 pictures of one in Wallace Wyss' book, "DeTomaso, the Man and the Machines". Page 123 shows the routing of the belt drive from the passenger compartment, page 161 shows the clearance under the engine screen. Obvious from the pictures, a Holly carb sitting on top would have to poke through the engine screen, but a pair of side draft Webers might squeeze beneath the late model L screen. With a Windsor motor your selection for supercharging would include the products made by Kenne Bell for '89 - '96 model Mustangs designed to operate in conjunction with EEC IV fuel injection.

regards, George
Thanks George. That's the plan, then. 351-W bored and stroked, Viper Spanker and 3.77:1 gears for the ZF. Low ride mainfold and carb. I also want reliablity, simplicity and versatilty. Reliabilty and simplicty: carb. Veratilty: abilty to bolt on more ponies later, much later, like when a project beckons me. I like to always keep wrenching on my Pantera. It just intrigues me and I get a kick out of always having a project to learn about and accomplish.

Now, I have to save up a few bucks. It would be nice to do the ZF and engine at the same time, when they come out. Any idea how much the 3.77 gears cost, ballpark? I have a fix on the engine cost, looks like I'll need to save up for a couple of years. I'm beginning year 3 of Pantera ownership. Never paln to "finish" the projects, just keep evolving the Pantera, with versatilty to go back and change it to stock or whatever I may want. Storage shed full of spare parts and all... stacked away in WD-40 which stands for Water Displacement in the WD part of WD-40. Thanks again, VFI or Ron, whatever you like to call me.

You're one of the few people I've ever heard that understood what WD meant! Smiler The product, like many we use, was developed by the military to protect metal parts. It is an excellent protectant. It is also an excellent penetrant, a byproduct of its molecular properties. It is only so - so as a lubricant, which strangely enough, is how it is marketed.

Can't help you with the price of the ZF gears, but hold onto your wallet when you find out, Lloyd Butfoy can help with the pricing on the ZF bulletin board. I'm considering 3.77 gears myself, sometime down the road, I have other things to do first. I enjoy the car the most, out on the open road, traveling. Figure the gears will enhance that experience.

My machinist explained lots of things to me, I ask lots of questions. Between wax paper and coated with WD-40 is how to store extra rotors for dozens of years. One hour set up to do the cross drilling and slotting and about an hour apiece to do the drilling, slotting and chamfering.... Lots of questions, lots of info.

I'm just doing all this for fun. Next is HP and while it's out, the ZF gets 3.77's and a polishing job, otherwise it's fine. Maybe in four years a higer fifth gear will add another 10% to the top speed, and maybe a supercharger at that time too.

With a little planning, I'll be able to stay with the top 1 or 2% of the commercially available automobiles at 187 mph and 0-60 mph in under 4 seconds.

ZF parts pricing will come down. The Euro is about 30 to 35% stronger than the Dollar. Five years ago, the Euro was 20% weaker than the Dollar. Probably about the time I'm ready to do the first stage project, the timing may be better in that regard.

There's open highway events happening in the Southwestern USA. on a calm day, with no cross winds, and at the proper sanctioned event, under perfect circumstances, I could reach 175 mph or so, on land, in my street legal vehicle, for many minutes at a time. What a gas! Just a once or once in a while experience. I remember those events in my life like they were yesterday. Thrilling. Potentially deadly, but thrilling. That's why to know all about everything I can, and why I do as much of the work as I can, and ask all them questions. That's also quite cool, to do the projects and finish them. Quite a cool feeling, and to be able to answer any question about it, quite cool. Just some of the reasons I own my Pantera.

Really don't ever expect to have a Ford GT motor past me, or a Lamborghini, or Ferrari, for that matter. Not when it goes down and happens in a few years from now. Am I right?
Sorry that 700bhp was nonsense Red Face I would have known if I'd thought about it. The real figure is 300 bhp at the back wheels.
I found the article, it is Summer 2001 Pantera International.
300bhp at the back wheels, revved to 7200rpm.
Custom fuel injection.
The best part is probably that the engine [the 4.6 cammer] is smaller and lighter than the Cleveland.

As an idea of the cost of 3.77, Lloyd quoted me (last year) $2400 for a 4.0 or 3.2 and $1500 for a 5th gear.
300 bhp at the rear wheels in a Pantera is roughly 375 bhp at the flywheel. Thats a good amount of bhp.

Its really all about whats imortant to an owner. A high tech, light weight, high revving engine would appeal to some, and they'll pay at least $20K to have a cammer installed (the motors are very expensive).

With half that sum invested in a push rod V8, you could achieve at least 500 bhp. that would appeal to another owner.

the Pantera community is full of "individuals" with different ideas of what constitutes the ideal Pantera. The nice thing is, there is room enough within our community for everyone. For Ferrari owners, the one mantra allowed is "keep it original".

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