Can I run E85 Gas in my 1972 351 C? 91 is not good enough. Can`t find 93 without Ethenol. Where to find higher than 113? In N.Y.S.?
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the engine itself will run it but the fuel system will need to be upgraded to handle the high level of ethanol, everything from the gasket on the gas cap to the carb base gasket
the metering calibration will also need to be re-worked from idle to Wide Open Throttle
short answer is No
BTW, the 10% that's in the pump gas is barely within tolerance of not having to do extensive tuning
the metering calibration will also need to be re-worked from idle to Wide Open Throttle
short answer is No
BTW, the 10% that's in the pump gas is barely within tolerance of not having to do extensive tuning
I think your going to want to get racing gas. $ 11.00 or so per gallon in bulk. By 5 gal. cans even more. You might be able to get some at race tracks while they are having races. Good luck. We'd like to know how you do.
Mark
Mark
Perhaps the real question that needs answering here is what leads you to believe that 91 octane is not good enough for your Pantera?
Specifically, what observations have you made that have brought you to question fuel octane as being a problem for your Cleveland?
In general, a stock or even a mildly rebuilt Cleveland should be doing fine with 91 octane gasoline. What is the history and condition of your Cleveland? Has the engine received a recent tuneup and especially, has engine timing been confirmed?
Larry
Specifically, what observations have you made that have brought you to question fuel octane as being a problem for your Cleveland?
In general, a stock or even a mildly rebuilt Cleveland should be doing fine with 91 octane gasoline. What is the history and condition of your Cleveland? Has the engine received a recent tuneup and especially, has engine timing been confirmed?
Larry
Depending on which configuration of the quench iron chamber heads you have, you really don't need to worry much about octane until you are over about 10.8:1 static...measured, not advertised.
In NYS we have 93 octane in the pump and Sunoco had 94 and some stations still have unleaded racing in the pump which is 102.
110-115 is for something like a 14:1 engine with a curve all in by 2000 engine rpm and 36-38 of lead.
THOSE were Pro-stock engines like Gapp & Roush and Dyno Don ran. Those were also 10,000 rpm engines...which is why they cracked the stock 4 bolt blocks.
The fact of the matter is that it is probably wiser to pull the engine apart enough in order to lower the c/r to a max of about 10.5 and just run pump gas.
You will find that you only need 36 total degrees advance if using the factory iron closed chamber heads with some kind of a pop up piston.
The newer aluminum heads you can probably run down to 32 degrees and not loose power. The plus being, the two things that require more octane are the rate of ignition advance (and total) and static compression ratio.
Deal with those two and the racing gas monkey is off of your back.
You just don't need it any more.
In NYS we have 93 octane in the pump and Sunoco had 94 and some stations still have unleaded racing in the pump which is 102.
110-115 is for something like a 14:1 engine with a curve all in by 2000 engine rpm and 36-38 of lead.
THOSE were Pro-stock engines like Gapp & Roush and Dyno Don ran. Those were also 10,000 rpm engines...which is why they cracked the stock 4 bolt blocks.
The fact of the matter is that it is probably wiser to pull the engine apart enough in order to lower the c/r to a max of about 10.5 and just run pump gas.
You will find that you only need 36 total degrees advance if using the factory iron closed chamber heads with some kind of a pop up piston.
The newer aluminum heads you can probably run down to 32 degrees and not loose power. The plus being, the two things that require more octane are the rate of ignition advance (and total) and static compression ratio.
Deal with those two and the racing gas monkey is off of your back.
You just don't need it any more.
I would say yes, I have thought about doing it myself but haven't pulled the trigger. Be aware you will need to upgrade hoses, fuel pump(new pump that will have a better diaphragm), E85 calibrated carbs are made by several companies now.
QFT E85 750cfm
I know a few of the EFI systems out now can be set up to be dual fuel, with the sensors to detect fuel quality. This way you can run E85 or gas and the EFI can seamlessly switch between fuels.
The tanks in most of our cars are aluminum and will be safe to run E85 without causing rust issues a ferrous tank can cause.
I have heard that some E85 fuels are not brewed the same from plant to plant. Where I buy it sometimes for my truck, the decal on the pump states "minimum 70% alcohol" So your results may vary.
Drag strips sell true E85, not sure of the price but with a true 85% alcohol level you can be assured of having consistent engine performance.
One last note, be ready to have a 30ish percent loss in fuel economy. BUT you will have a noticeable increase in horsepower, this is one of the benefits of running a alcohol based fuel.
Jeff
PS- If you want to have a high octane non ethanol fuel, go to a marina, or a fuel station near a marina. They will advertise REC gas, usually at least 91 octane. Be prepared to pay around $4-5 a gallon.
QFT E85 750cfm
I know a few of the EFI systems out now can be set up to be dual fuel, with the sensors to detect fuel quality. This way you can run E85 or gas and the EFI can seamlessly switch between fuels.
The tanks in most of our cars are aluminum and will be safe to run E85 without causing rust issues a ferrous tank can cause.
I have heard that some E85 fuels are not brewed the same from plant to plant. Where I buy it sometimes for my truck, the decal on the pump states "minimum 70% alcohol" So your results may vary.
Drag strips sell true E85, not sure of the price but with a true 85% alcohol level you can be assured of having consistent engine performance.
One last note, be ready to have a 30ish percent loss in fuel economy. BUT you will have a noticeable increase in horsepower, this is one of the benefits of running a alcohol based fuel.
Jeff
PS- If you want to have a high octane non ethanol fuel, go to a marina, or a fuel station near a marina. They will advertise REC gas, usually at least 91 octane. Be prepared to pay around $4-5 a gallon.
is REC gas legal for use in passenger vehicles operated on highways?
http://pure-gas.org/?stateprov=NY
http://www.racegas.com/fuelfinder
http://pure-gas.org/?stateprov=NY
http://www.racegas.com/fuelfinder
quote:Originally posted by webbers:
Can I run E85 Gas in my 1972 351 C? 91 is not good enough. Can`t find 93 without Ethenol. Where to find higher than 113? In N.Y.S.?
The safe limit of alcohol content is what is in the pumps here in NY. 10%.
One of the issues with it besides the corrosion issue is that it already has reduced the MPG average where it is used.
I don't know if the Indy cars still run "Alky" still but the flames in the fires are invisible.
30% more fuel consumption is the accurate number. $5 a gallon sounds like the number too.
I think the drawbacks to it far outweigh any of the advantages.
Recently for me I've been having issues with the needle and seats in the Holley carbs from the ethanol.
Seems like when you let the car sit long enough to evaporate the fuel in the bowl, the needles are sticking opening due to a reaction with the alcohol and something in the needle and seat?
The floats that are brass and soldered together are now also suspect. I had two collapsed floats which may or may not be related?
The smart move with carbs is to change them over to plastic floats.
quote:Originally posted by OSOFAST:
The tanks in most of our cars are aluminum and will be safe to run E85 without causing rust issues a ferrous tank can cause.
Only the '71 cars had an aluminum tank, later years are all steel.
Julian
quote:Originally posted by webbers:
Can I run E85 Gas in my 1972 351 C? 91 is not good enough. Can`t find 93 without Ethenol. Where to find higher than 113? In N.Y.S.?
I am perplexed why you won't use 93 that contains 10% ethanol, but prepared to go to E85?
Also the true octane rating of E85 (R+M/2 method) is around 94, not the typically quoted 100-105.
Julian
Only the '71 cars had an aluminum tank, later years are all steel.
Julian[/QUOTE]
wrong thinking Julian ,the later Pantera's has also a aluminum tank.
Simon
Julian[/QUOTE]
wrong thinking Julian ,the later Pantera's has also a aluminum tank.
Simon
quote:Originally posted by Simon:
Only the '71 cars had an aluminum tank, later years are all steel.
Julian
wrong thinking Julian ,the later Pantera's has also a aluminum tank.
Simon[/QUOTE]
4066 is steel. What do mean by "later"?
quote:wrong thinking Julian ,the later Pantera's has also a aluminum tank.
No, I'm with Julian on this one.
Well known to long time owners was that the earliest cars had aluminum tanks that USA DOT thought too weak, thus the mandated removal of those tanks and their covering with several layers of fiberglass cloth and resin.
As with most things Pantera, there may be a late Ford Pantera with an aluminum tank, but it was either a true odd ball using a left over tank, or had its tank changed somewhere in its four decade history. Or perhaps, Simon's exposure has been mostly European sold cars and they retained the aluminum tanks?
Sorry, but as for the Ford cars, the incorrect thinking is from Simon.
Larry